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New Rotel or 2nd Hand Tag?

Discussion in 'AV Pre-Amp/Processors & Power Amps' started by petrolhead, Mar 19, 2003.

  1. petrolhead

    petrolhead
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    Now I know there is a price difference but I want to play devils advocate.

    Which would you choose and why?

    Rotel RSP1066 or Tag AV32r with EX?
     
  2. sounddog

    sounddog
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    Okay ... well totally ignoring the fact that a similarly equipped TAG would be 2 - 2.5x the price of the Rotel, even second hand (assuming 7.1 with bypass) ... then the TAG will probably be better.

    Would I choose the TAG ... no because if I had that sort of money I'd probably look at the Arcam AV8. (Well you did say ignoring cost I'm ignoring the cost increase of the Arcam!!)

    Vikki
     
  3. slingshot

    slingshot
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    Easy RSP1066, because I did.

    At the time I couldn't find a 2nd hand TAG with decent warranty at anywhere near the price of a 1066.

    I can't comment on the sound between them, because I didn't want to audition anything I couldn't afford (fallen into this trap before when buying a pj, would have been happy with a cheaper pj till I saw a sony !).

    I did compare the 1066 (mainly in Stereo mode cause music was important) with a couple of integrated Yam and Denon at around the same price (sorry can't remeber numbers) and it was a significant improvement.

    Anyway can't really help you anymore, I'd like to say the 1066 is as good in Stereo (but I doubt it) as the TAG.
     
  4. AOD

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    I can't call myself impartial (see the kit list in my sig) but I would go for the Tag.

    Yes there will be a price difference (quite a difference especially if you want EX) but that gets you an exquisite slice of engineering and that all important upgradeability.

    Oh yeah, and it sounds pretty good too.

    At the end of the day it's ears vs wallets. Let the battle commence!
     
  5. sounddog

    sounddog
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    Agree with slignshot in the real world.

    The Rotel was the best we could afford - so didn't demo anything higher. Have heard similar priced integrated amps, but the Rotel beats them on stereo.

    Oh and which is better ... Lexicon MC12B or Tag AV32R ... oh and which is better ... Ford Focus 1.6 or Mercedes C320 ... each time you double the expenditure - you're going to get a lot better ... its economics of scale.

    If you can afford the TAG, then yes you will (probably - not sure anyone has done an A-B test) get a better processor. Whats more interesting is whats better between TAG and the new Rotel RSP1098 when it comes out as thats going to be a fairer comparison.

    As an asside (as we all have opinions on worth of reviews) What HiFi are testing Pre/Processor and Power amp setups next month.

    Vikki
     
  6. alexs2

    alexs2
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    I'd definitely choose the Tag(not because I have one!)because of the sound quality,ease of use,and upgradeablility.
    There are a few very good offers on Tags website currently,of factory refurbished machines at very decent prices....well worth a look.
     
  7. petrolhead

    petrolhead
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    Like I say just playing devils advocate.

    A new RSP1066 is £995 - 10% = £895 which is as you say half the price of a second hand Tag with Ex.

    Would be interested in the comparison between the 2. If the rumours are correct the RSP1098 has been delayed and its price will be twice that of the RSP1066 and therefore the same as a 2nd Hand Tag.
     
  8. nathan_silly

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    Lexicon MC-1's are going for £1500 from CSE with 1 year warranty.
     
  9. alexs2

    alexs2
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    For what it's worth....AV32R with 192kHz DACS going at £1395 on Tag's site and another for £1490....just remember the upgrade path also with these.
     
  10. AOD

    AOD
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    If you prefer the sound of the Lexicon, then indeed it is a fine piece of kit. However when it comes to upgrades, it's a dead duck. I know Logic 7 is supposed to be a very good alternative to PL II but personally I do like having the choice.
     
  11. lespaton

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    The 1066 is not without its problems (at least the USA version that is). Go here... http://www.htguide.com/CFBoards/index.cfm
    and read thru Club Rotel.
    UK users of the 1066 like to comment on their experiences ? I for one am keenly interested as I am considering a Rotel as an upgrade.
     
  12. slingshot

    slingshot
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    No problems at all, I assume that points to the alleged bass management issue ?

    spent ages reading through it all and can't see what the fuss is about. I bought the 1066 because it had analogue pass through (well I assume that's why it sounds half decent in stereo). Which means it doesn't convert to digital chop off the bottom 80Hz and back to analog.

    Currently my sub is connected at speaker level anyway, so with large fronts none of these problems apply. I did have it connected at line level, I simply had to adjust the X-over on the sub when playing music.

    The main issues are with multichannel audio (which I haven't tried yet), but reading around I thought it's upto the DVD-A/SACD player to manage bass before passing it through to the processor. But I could be wrong on this point.
     
  13. nathan_silly

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    Soundog, noticed your comments on that forum- why have you not given warnings about the Rotel?:(
     
  14. sounddog

    sounddog
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    Because its a minor problem which doesn't detract from the product.

    We have a very slight ticking or popping noise when adjusting digital signals. We're confident that Rotel will provide a solution.

    In the meantime, the Rotel RSP1066 is still a fine sounding bit of kit for a lot less money than it's competition and we're happy with it and happy to still recomend it to others.

    Vikki
     
  15. petrolhead

    petrolhead
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    How do you mean, adjusting.

    BTW Viki/Steff I think I have found the amp :)
     
  16. sounddog

    sounddog
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    Adjusting as in changing source, or sometimes the volume (not always) and occasionally at layer change.

    Rotel are working on the problem and it only seams to be affecting a small number of units from the past 4 months or so.

    Vikki
     
  17. mick23

    mick23
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    soundog how do you tell if buying a 1066 that you have the latest firmware/software/ avaliable already installed from (b&W/rotel)

    ie buy new 1066 then have to pissball about making up cable,and installing latest software that is avaliable etc, thank you
     
  18. sounddog

    sounddog
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    Turn it on in the shop and check there?

    *shrug* make sure they order you a fresh one not one from in stock in a shop?

    The latest version of the firmware only came out this week and will continually be upgraded I don't think even if you get one of hte latest ones it will be the latest for that long. So if you are worried about firmware then I guess you should accept you might have to build a cable it's only a couple of minutes work. You just have to connect up the 4 pins at one end of a long RJ45 cable to a RS232 9 pin female connector.

    Steff
     
  19. sounddog

    sounddog
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    Press and hold the mute button on the remote control. I'm sure if you ask your dealer they'll make sure it's got the latest (2.25) firmware before you take it home.

    Vikki
     
  20. Phil Hinton

    Phil Hinton
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    I recently demoed the Rotel 1066 with the 1075. I also demoed the Tag AV32r with the rotel 1075.

    I feel it is a little unfair on the rotel to even try and compare it to a processor whic new is 3x the price. For 1k the rotel is stunning value for money and with the 105 is exceptional when compared to intergrated Amps at that price bracket.

    However the question is New Rotel or Used Tag, well seeing as i have done just that by gettig the Tag(1800) you know my answer, based I may say on actual demos of the gear involved.
     
  21. Steve.EX

    Steve.EX
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    For what it is worth i would wholly agree with Phil here, the sheer class superiority far outweighs the 800 or so gbp difference between the two models.
    I have a great admiration for pretty much all things Rotel and indeed use 2.35kw of their amplification but the Tag IMHO is everything you may have read and more, it really is a sublime piece of kit from engineering to implementation to user interface to performance.
    Their are many here who will extol the techical virtues of the machine but i would simply add it has been my most enjoyable purchase to date, i have the opportunity to "up-grade" and whilst not realistically wanting (read - able to afford) the MC12, i am a Tag man through and through and am having another rather than A.N.Other.
    This will sound terribly aloof i realise but if your budget permits don't sell yourself short.
    Tag has the proven track record, how many others do you think will be refining their products 3.5 years after release onto the market (certainly Lex have/will), with all due respect i really don't believe Arcam or Rotel will.
    I am a born sceptic - but in this instance i most honestly would say believe the hype.
    How many dissatisfied Tag owners out there are you aware of?
    How many Tag 32's have you heard of breaking down, in following their Forum (a great source of technical info) i am aware of maybe 4 in the 2 years i have been logging on (all with power supply failure)
    This company leads the way. Phone their helpline for some technical advice and then call Denon/Rotel/Yamaha. (Tags CEO and Head of Technical Engineering dailly return MANY forum based
    questions from dummy level through to an extremely technical level - if thats your bag) This is an enthusiast's company!
    I genuinely feel delighted (still) to have backed this horse amongst so many other nearly rans and fell overs and, had a good start but quickly ran out of steam purchases that i could and indeed have made.


    Steve.
     
  22. CounterWhine

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    I'm with Steve on this one.

    The Rotels are fine products (I have one and I'm delighted with it) but when you come to upgrade, the Tag will prove to have been a better purchase.

    The future-proofing and ably demonstrated commitment to upgrades is one of Tag's trump cards. The other one is the sheer excellence of their products.

    I have never been as happy with any HiFi purchase as I am with my two Tag products.

    D.
     
  23. petrolhead

    petrolhead
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    Well done steve, I am impressed, not a mention that you are selling one ;)

    I am very tempted :) but still questions.

    I will partner this with a Rotel Amp and Kef Q speakers. What will be the difference with my current 3802? (see www.pellis.co.uk)

    Will the speaker be up to the job?
     
  24. sounddog

    sounddog
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    Just to comment on what Steve EX said in comment to upgrading processors ... while Arcam have not produced and upgradable processor previously so we can't be sure, I have read that it is still possible to have an Arcam Alpha 7 CD player upgraded to the level of the CD92 - so Arcam have in the past kept to their promise of upgradability - we'll have to wait and see what they produce in the future.

    Also steve (this time in Rotel's defence) you say it's !!only!! £800 more to get a second hand TAG - what spec level do you get for that - I would have though around £1700 would buy you an A32R with EITHER 7.1 OR 5.1 bypass ... not both. Also your !!only!! £800 more would mean almost doubling someone's budget for the processor.

    I think that the TAG and Rotel are aimed at different budget points - even taking into account what good value the TAG is second hand and I don't think many people who could afford over £2000 for a second hand TAG (with 7.1 AND bypass) would also be looking at a new Rotel RSP1066 ... it's just too cheep for them!! The only people who may be interested are those who have £1000 now, but could save the extra in the near future or may look for a loan to fund the remainder.

    Going back to petrolheads original question.

    You'd buy the Rotel if ... you wanted to get into pre/pro and power amp setup on a restricted budget, wanted the features that the Rotel gives you (most sound formats, 7.1, good quality bypass, etc) and wanted good (for the money) quality sound / build / etc.

    You'd but the TAG if ... you had more money, accepted the restrictions of the lower priced s/h TAGs (or were prepared to spend more), wanted a proven upgrade programme and wanted better quality sound / build / etc.

    (all IMO and acknowledging the fact that I'm biassed towards the Rotel)
    Vikki
     
  25. mick23

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    re tag and 1066, i too am bit undecided 1066 or 1055 or tag/lex mc1, having looked on tag website, new/and tags for sale direct from tag or 2nd hand, there seem to be so many different combinations of upgrade bypass hdcd etc,

    perhaps it would be easier if members that are tag knowlegable,
    could give bit more info,

    if buying direct from tag/referbs or 2nd hand what should we be looking for as regards tag models, that have already been upgraded , tag 32+?????? that would be simular in spec "bypass , ex, 7.1, hdcd,and so forth in other words what tag that has same features as 1066,

    if 1066 is about £900 and to buy tag with same features or more "already installed" as 1066 for about £1400, i think it might be easier to decide which way to go
     
  26. sounddog

    sounddog
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    Mick ...

    Not sure if this helps ... but when we were buying our RSP1066, TAG had on their "classified" page an AV32R 5.1 Upgrade with 192kHz which is listed as being their Technical Directors old unit. This is listed for £1300. For this price it does not match the Rotel for features (this may or may not be important!)

    To upgrade this to 7.1 (DD-EX / THX-EX) would have cost £471 (prices from memory) plus £99 for DTS-ES

    To upgrade to add 5.1 bypass would have been another £470.

    These prices would have been the same for any similar 5.1 + 192kHz unit, but anything over 18 months old would have had an additional £99 surcharge added.

    Looking at the ones in the classified forum, Steve.EXs (£1850) would need the 5.1 bypass adding and then JSWs is fully upto spec. Yes the TAG is better than the rotel ... but is also (even second hand) a lot more expensive to get the same feature set.

    It comes back to what I put in the last post ... got money - go for the TAG, restricted budget but still good - get the Rotel.

    Vikki
     
  27. Phil Hinton

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    To add to my comments the Tag i bought was silver finish with 5.1 DD/DTS 192dacs HDCD PLII. But thats all i need to have (might go for 5.1 bypass if DVDA or SACD become an issue). To me for my room that is more than enough with a performance which the Rotel will never touch, and neither it should or be expected to. The 2 ch performance of the Tag is brilliant which clinched it for me.

    The rotel is great value as i keep saying, BUT if you can afford the little bit extra (300-1200) then its a no brainer, as the Arcam is at least 2k more, you wont find any second hand or dicounted( i looked hard enough). But if you cant afford any more then i whole heartedly recommend you listen to the rotel. BTW i am in an internet cafe in the middle of London, yet i just had to get involved in this thread again!
     
  28. petrolhead

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    Thanks Phil. Showing off :)

    Well I have managed to get a RB985 MKII so I now have the 5 channels, just need something for rear, any suggestions?

    From Sounddogs post the DTS ES is another upgrade :(. Is this correct?

    I do not need the 5.1 bypass.

    This is what I need. DD, DD EX, DTS, DTS EX and PLII
     
  29. sounddog

    sounddog
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    THX ...

    I agree with you that the TAG is going to be a class above the Rotel, my point is that it is (even second hand) significantly more expensive than the TAG especially if you are looking for one with 192kHz DACs and either 7.1 or the 5.1 bypass - to my mind it's not spending a "little bit more" its spending a LOT more to get the same features.

    I still think trying to compare the two is like comparing a Ford Focus to a Mercedes C-Class ... both do the same job ... but at completely different price so to a different level of perfection.

    Vikki
     
  30. mick23

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    petrolhead just got reply from b&W re 985 1066 etc.

    i have the985mk1 (100watts) the suggestion from b/w was use something like rb 1070 to power fronts ,use your 985mk1/2 to power the other 5 channels,

    i have noticed add for rb 981 which is 130watts 2 channel amp older vertion of 1070 i think, i have not had reply from seller but if still avaliably i will purchase this, and use for front channels, so i will have power amps in place,

    there is add on tags website for the 200watt rb991 i think for £300 if not already sold,
    hope this helps
     

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