1. Join Now

    AVForums.com uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

New Panasonics: 6 hours quality recording?

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by steveparry, Mar 2, 2005.

  1. steveparry

    steveparry
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    I'm more or less decided that I'll buy the new Panasonic DMR-ES10 when it appears later this month. I understand the resolution of recordings will be twice the quality as at present on the equivalent model. The press release states: it "will render images that are twice as sharp as previous models". If this is true can I expect that LP mode on this model would be equivalent to SP mode on the DMR55? I'll mainly be using this to record movies from a freeview box. So might I expect something like 2 x 2' 59" = nearly 6 hours of high quality recording! Given that the DMR55 defaults to half res at 2 hours 59 mins. This would mean I could record at least three or even four movies on one disc!

    Steve
     
  2. OARDVD

    OARDVD
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2003
    Messages:
    241
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Deepest Hertfordshire
    Ratings:
    +0
    LP is 4 hours, not 6.
     
  3. mray

    mray
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2004
    Messages:
    2,728
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +217
    I know the 4hr mode will give 4hrs recording at full resolution, but I would like to know if there's going to be a significant improvement in xp and sp modes. Rasczak? Anyone?
    Thanks in advance. :smashin:
     
  4. TobyW

    TobyW
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2005
    Messages:
    157
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Australia
    Ratings:
    +3
    I too would like to know the answer.

    I love my Panny E85, it's so user-friendly and bedroom-friendly compared to a PC. The Panny sits there quietly, and when I press Record it obediently does what I expect. And for VHS transfers the Panny beats the pants off my PC.

    By comparison, my PC is neither home-friendly nor user-friendly. Making each recording is quite a challenge. But when it comes to off-air recording, my 2.4GHz PC with WinDvr3 can maintain good PQ at full resolution for 4 hours, for most program material. By squeezing the audio bitrate, and accepting some block noise on occasional action scenes, this can be stretched to 6 hours, still at full resolution.

    So a Panny that maintains full resolution for 6 hours ought to be feasible at a technical level. I would love to buy one.
     
  5. Teleport

    Teleport
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    I wouldn't get too hung up on that statement. Sounds a bit like marketing spin to me.
     
  6. DVD-RAM

    DVD-RAM
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    I agree, remember that the recording cannot be better than the original!!
     
  7. AVmaster

    AVmaster
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2004
    Messages:
    381
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Location:
    Liecestershire
    Ratings:
    +2
    True, but the question seems to be is there less of a loss during the recording process.
    The new range have a 12 bit video processor rather than the old 10bit processor, so the quality should be better on the new models, although XP mode always did have the ability to record better quality than the recorder was able to input (unless using the DV input).
     
  8. phelings

    phelings
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2003
    Messages:
    1,025
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Ratings:
    +0
    But will you be able to record on the HDD in a selected quality level for longer than that quality level before recording stops?
    If I have an ovenight copy from Sky+,I would like to copy in 2hour 10 level but for 5 hours.If they do not correct this I will be disappointed
     
  9. AVmaster

    AVmaster
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2004
    Messages:
    381
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Location:
    Liecestershire
    Ratings:
    +2
    Well the recording doesn't actually stop though does it. The recorder simply divides the recording if it spans more than 4.7Gb on the HDD for dubbing on to DVD.

    If you are recording on SP(2hr) mode for 5 hours then you will get 2 two hour recordings and a third 1 hour recording totalling 5 hours. This function will not change.
     
  10. Jules

    Jules
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2000
    Messages:
    5,052
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Ratings:
    +721
    Think you missed Pheling's point, which I whole heartedly agree with.

    The Panasonics have a 'wonderful' FR mode for setting the appropriate bit rate so a recorded program fits a DVD-R.
    The problem is that it makes no allowance for the fact that this same data rate could be used to record for longer periods on the HDD. It just stops recording when the program would have filled a DVD-R.

    So, if you want to record a 90 minute film from ITV, you cannot set the appropriate bit rate to fill the disc after editing out the adverts. You have to set a bit rate for 105 mins, then remove the adverts and waste 10-20% of the available space on the DVD-R.
    It defeats the whole point of a built in HDD.

    We had a discussion on this point a while back. Some don't see it as much of a problem, but personally I think it's a crack-pot implemenation of an otherwise good system... and it's a problem that Panasonic's main rivals (Toshiba & Pioneer) don't suffer from.
     
  11. Rasczak

    Rasczak
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2002
    Messages:
    21,146
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Argyll
    Ratings:
    +2,208
    But the point that Phelings continiously misses is that the Panasonic MPEG encoder is superior - meaning that the PQ of a Panasonic recording, even with 10-20% of the disc wasted, is generally superior to a full disc on the Pioneer.

    And it should be noted that the only recordings to which this 'limitation' applies are films with advert breaks*. And even then a simple workaround is to simply stop the recording in an advert break and start a second recording. A small price to pay for superior PQ.

    * Consider these examples:

    Movie without advert breaks (Sky/BBC)
    Set the bitrate to the length of the movie (preferrably with a buffer time of 1 or 2 mins either side of the start/end time). Once recorded trim the start/end to remove unwanted footage (the buffer time). End result wasted footage between 2 to 4 minutes. Do the same on a Pioneer and you use the fixed modes so wasted minutes will be between 2-6 minutes. Any real difference between the 'wastage'? No not really. But the Panasonic has better MPEG encoding so I know which recorder I would have preferred...

    TV Series with advert breaks
    Set the recordiing length to the playing time of the number of episodes you want to archive onto the final DVD-R. For example if you want to record two 1 hour episodes (43mins programme plus 17 mins adverts) to the DVD-R you would dial in 1 hour 26 mins (83 mins). Record each episode seperately and, once recorded trim the start/end to remove unwanted footage. Repeat for the next episode(s). End result wasted footage is effectively 0 minutes. Do the same on a Pioneer and you use the fixed modes so wasted minutes will be between 0-6 minutes. Any real difference between the 'wastage'? No not really. But the Panasonic has better MPEG encoding so I know which recorder I would have preferred...

    TV Series without advert breaks (BBC)
    Set the recordiing length to the playing time of the number of episodes you want to archive onto the final DVD-R. For example if you want to record two 58 mins episodes (no adverts) to the DVD-R you would dial in 1 hours 56 mins (116 mins). Record each episode seperately and, once recorded trim the start/end to remove any unwanted footage. Repeat for the next episode(s). End result wasted footage is effectively 0 minutes. Do the same on a Pioneer and you use the fixed modes so wasted minutes will, again, be between 0-6 minutes. Any real difference between the 'wastage'? No not really. But the Panasonic has better MPEG encoding so I know which recorder I would have preferred...

    Movie with advert breaks
    This is where Phelings (etc) consider the Panasonic models to fall down, i.e. you need to dial in a time to Flexible Record to encompass the whole movie thus once you delete the adverts the wasted space will be the length of the adverts suggesting a lower bitrate. However there are workarounds. If you intend to watch the movie then set to Flexible Record to the length of the movie without adverts (this can be discovered from www.imdb.com ). During one of the advert breaks near the middle of the recording, stop the recording and restart using the same Flexible Record setting. Once recorded trim the start/end to remove unwanted footage (the buffer time) and use a playlist to merge the two. End result wasted footage can be as low as 0 minutes. But the bottomline is that, in most cases, even using Flexible Record with as setting to encompass the whole programme (including ads) then the Panasonic recording is still likely to be better than the Pioneer equivalent.
     
  12. OARDVD

    OARDVD
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2003
    Messages:
    241
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Deepest Hertfordshire
    Ratings:
    +0
    Seeing as you would have to be present to monitor the recording to do that, then alternatively you could: Using the non-timer FR method set the FR time to the running time of the movie without ads and start it off. Then simply press pause during the start and end of each ad. This pauses the FR recording during the ads and, equally importantly, the countdown time is paused as well. No need for multiple recordings which need to be merged in a playlist.

    This pause method can't be used for the Timer version of FR though as the recording will always run for the duration set in the start & end times.
     
  13. Rasczak

    Rasczak
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2002
    Messages:
    21,146
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Argyll
    Ratings:
    +2,208
    Good point about the Pause option OARDVD - it is another way of avoiding the limitation.
     
  14. phelings

    phelings
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2003
    Messages:
    1,025
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Ratings:
    +0
    Rasczak,you are simply offering up excuses for a failing of the Panasonic.Why do they not simply implement the feature properly.
    Saying its got a better encoder is a poor excuse.Surely this stupid problem partially defeats the advantage of having a better encoder.
    As for recording tv shows one at a time.Well,if we were round to do that we would not really be that bothered.Its with bulk copying from Sky+ where I want it sorted.
    You seem to have a direct line to Panasonic so maybe you can get them to sort the problem out.Is it so difficult?
    There appears to be no advantage to them implementing the way they have.
    This idiocy is second only to the lack of DIVIDE on the Sony HDD models.
    Its all very well coming up with solutions to avoid problems,but why should we have to.I am looking forward to adding a new Panny HDD machine to my unit,but if this problem persists thats one lost sale
     
  15. Rasczak

    Rasczak
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2002
    Messages:
    21,146
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Argyll
    Ratings:
    +2,208
    No I'm not. I'm offering workarounds for the "failings of the Panasonic". And a defined explanation of precisely what it affects.

    Perhaps they should. However in four years of DVD recording I've never found it a limitation so I guess not everyone finds it as annoying as you ;) Panasonic's approach has always been 'keep it simple' - and thier FR implementation is just that.
     
  16. phelings

    phelings
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2003
    Messages:
    1,025
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Ratings:
    +0
    I would think anyone would find it annoying recording anything to the HDD that requires editing,surely thats the whole point of the HDD in the first place.If you know a series of shows will last 1hour 40,I want to be able to copy them from Sky+ at that FR level.If anything,doing it the Panny way is more complicated.Logically,you set the level to 1.40,then press record and start Sky+ off.later you return to stop recording and then edit,only to find the Panny has stopped by itself.
    Are we now lead to believe this will continue on the new machines too?
     
  17. Jules

    Jules
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2000
    Messages:
    5,052
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Ratings:
    +721
    I've given up on this one Phelings.

    Rasczak is clearly passionate about this subject and has a lot of useful knowledge which new members will find invaluable.

    However, I've noticed that some discussions between more experienced users in this section of the forum can often end up a little 'heavy weight' and unfriendly.

    If people read this thread and get a blanced view on which to make an informed purchasing decision then I'll be happy.
     
  18. HMHB

    HMHB
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2001
    Messages:
    25,444
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Nottinghamshire
    Ratings:
    +3,745
    I'm a happy owner of a Panasonic E55 and an E85 and love the RAM format, but I will say I am not a big fan of the FR mode. Someone else has pointed out that when bulk copying from Sky+ it really is a pain in the backside. I've ended up have to re-encode stuff on a couple of occasions and this has led to lip-synch problems. Because of these problems I have advised friends and family not to get a DVD recorder yet as they are not easy to use and are more for the enthusiasts at the moment. I would love to see a Panasonic recorder which is easier to use.
     
  19. phelings

    phelings
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2003
    Messages:
    1,025
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Ratings:
    +0
    John-Toshiba and Pioneer recorders do not implement FR HDD recording in the same stupid way as panasonic does.Don't put them off dvd recorders just because Panny have cocked up one one thing.
    Now they have woken up to the compatibility issue lets hope the new range also correct the FR problem
     
  20. HMHB

    HMHB
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2001
    Messages:
    25,444
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Nottinghamshire
    Ratings:
    +3,745
    So do the Pioneers and Toshibas allow you to specify the quality of the recording rather than having to know the final total time ?
     
  21. MikeNolan

    MikeNolan
    Novice Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2004
    Messages:
    540
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Hereford
    Ratings:
    +0
    I am now waiting to go for the new Panasonic ES50. However, reading this thread has left me totally confused. I want a DVD recorder that can do the following.
    1) Copy some old NTSC laser discs in pure NTSC format, and I've been told that the Panasonics are the machines to so this.
    2) A DVD recorder that works like a VHS machine, but obviously with the better quality - to record a 3hr or 4hr film onto a Hard Disk, and if necessary edit out the ads, and then dump it onto a DVD disc. But reading all these comments has left me totally bewildered. Question then. Is it possible to record a 3hr plus program onto a HD and simply copy it onto a removable disc for future viewings. The way I read these comments, the Panasonics only record up to 2 hrs 10 mins segments onto a HD and then start again. What's all this about. I thought if a HD had the ability to record 40 hrs worth of material that it would do exactly that, ie record around the clock. I really don't want to have to go on a training course to get stuff from Sky+ onto a shiny disk. Can anyone out there write an answer in reasonably simple language.
     
  22. Jules

    Jules
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2000
    Messages:
    5,052
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Ratings:
    +721
    Yes.

    However, I'd like to add some balance to my own purchasing decision, which even with all my previous posts in mind, I would still choose a Panasonic but for a different reason.
    As far as I know, the Panasonics are the only ones with 2x scart AND a seperate set of S-Video in/out sockets on the back panel.
    This is vital when you want a tidy connection to a TV & digibox, and to your AV amp at the same time.

    If Toshiba included such connectivity, it would have been an easy choice.
     
  23. phelings

    phelings
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2003
    Messages:
    1,025
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Ratings:
    +0
    My Pioneer 5100 had 2 scarts and the separate s-video inputs,but the new range have removed the s-video.I am forced to daisy chain Freeview HDD,Sky+ over to the Pioneer 420,then onto the dvd player then up to the tv.
    The Pioneer will record in any FR(MN) setting,but unlike the Panny it will record for any duration you want.
    I would hold off a purchasing decision to see if Panny have corrected this.I will be surprised if they have.
     
  24. ben223

    ben223
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Emjel

    1) Yes

    2) You can make a continuous recording for as long as there's space available on the HD. It will be split into separate titles every 8 hours, though.
     
  25. TobyW

    TobyW
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2005
    Messages:
    157
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Australia
    Ratings:
    +3
    Although the Tosh 32 does allow you to choose a bit-rate, there are limitations on the values you can choose. And then you have to navigate through the menus and adjust one of the 5 pre-sets. And even if you get the arithmetic right, the Tosh still doesn't guarantee to fit the recording on the disk (according to the manual).

    Having used both the Tosh 32 and the Panny 85, I personally prefer the Panny's "FR" approach, but I agree that the Panny's approach doesn't go far enough.

    For me, bit-rate is only a concern if the recording will eventually be dubbed to a disk. I don't want to think in terms of megabits per second, I want to think in terms of disk space. In this respect, Panny's "FR" dialog suits me fine, and I don't need a calculator.

    But, after using the FR dialog to get the right bit-rate, I then want to specify how long to actually record for, as that duration is usually quite different.

    For example, it might be only a fraction of a disk's worth, if I am collecting multiple recordings for one disk. On the other hand, it might be more than the size of a disk, because I will later edit out the before-and-after margins and adverts from a long film.

    So come on Panasonic, give me that option please!
     

Share This Page

Loading...