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New loft project

Discussion in 'Home Cinema Building DIY' started by Roguey, Nov 19, 2004.

  1. Roguey

    Roguey
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    hi, releasiling work started on the upstairs loft, as many years ago (just after the house was built) the loft was turned into a living space, and now its under a re-development into a cinemia / study conversion. The loft is really split into 2 sections:

    the smaller one being - 3.2m x 3.70m (to be used as the study),
    the larger one being - 6.5m x 3.2m (to be used as as the cinemia area),
    with a staircase between them.

    The side walls going to put some 20mm ply wood on the walls (we have 8 sheets of it spaire - not even sure what it is, i know its atleast external upgrade, might even be marine) on which the plasterboard will fix onto in the cinemia section and and in the study area (the smaller area) the walls will be padded out with strips of ply, left over. the walls are done in 4x2" and fibre glass is trapped inside of them. so what do u think of this? will this help agaisnt the walls being shookin?

    the floor has been packed with about 8" (i think) of fibre glass (all joists are 6x2"), above that an floor boards. so am i wondering what u guys would put on top of it. I mean we havnt got much money to put down any really costly floor, really have the choice being lamiete flooring or carpet. I have read that lamiette floors sound a lot wrose for cinemia systems? but i like the look of it more than a carpet. I think the two roughtly work out the same per sqz/m

    many thanks for ur time and help, if u want i could update this post on whats happen. sorry for writting such a large post
     
  2. gaz

    gaz
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    I actually supply and install laminate floors and hardwood floors for a living if your putting a laminate floor in a loft or upstairs even, and you are concerned about transfering noise then then you need to use sound absorbtion pads/accoustic pads these are available from specalist flooing shops, B&Q and the like these are usually green made up of paper pulp and and will cut out a lot of noise. As far as affecting the sound i'm no expert but i supose it will depend on whether or not your speakers are wall mouted or floor standing and what covering you have on your walls how much furiture and soft furnishings you have in your room these will all contribute or detract to the quality of your sound
    i have a solid oak floor in my cinema although its nailed straight to the joists
    it will have similar accoustics to a laminate floor it sounds great but i have carpet on the walls and ceiling i presume this will absorb a lot of the base but it dosent sound tinny at all.
    hope this helps even its only a little bit.
     
  3. Roguey

    Roguey
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    yea it does. my dad was on about them tiles at wickies, b/q but wasnt sure about them, might think about installing them.

    as for the laminate, there wont be any carpet on the walls, just 20mm ply (sorry for saying it was 25mm), on that plaster board. As for furiture im only looking at an 2 seater chair nothing really else (althou i think i need some mats too). The speakers are floorstanding ones (KEF Q7) with an 3805 reciever, Q9c center and an Paradigm (mk 1, 250w RMS).

    so what do u think of this? does laminate need furiture in the room to sound better? or is it better without much stuff? is carpet better in a cinemia room than laminate?

    many thanks for help, and thanks gaz
     
  4. paulr

    paulr
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    Same question here...laminate looks better though.
     
  5. gaz

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    i supose it also depends on how far you want to go with the look of your cinema ie: if you want it to look like a cinema or a multi function media room if you want it more cinema like you can ad big curtains and pelmet surrounding your screen perhaps some curtains at the back and on top of your walls you could paste that polystyrene stuff on a roll used for really lumpy walls and the like then line it and paint it on the face of it it will look like an Ordinary wall but you will have the advantage of your walls being able absorb sound so it dosent just bounce it around the room just like a carpet would on a floor
     
  6. Roguey

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    ah, so do you want the walls / floors to absorb sound or bounce it? i guess absorb? looks like we making the walls to strongre than before - as the walls used to more like upto around 3mm (backwards and forwards) as it was only plaster board nail very like 400mm. I guess laminate flooring would also make more sound bounce inside of the walls? and more the bounce, wrose the sound gets?

    what i just thought might help than if the walls want to absorb sound, is between the 20mm ply on the walls and the plasterboard, what about putting some laminate underlay between them?

    i have attached 2 pictures of how it used to be, just to show the shape etc. of the room - have to do some more of it now :) dvds i doubt will be stored at the front like before, they move to the back of the room. also that back wall has moved back about 2 foot, as it was an fake wall there - where an hot water tank was, but when the heating system got re-newed, it got left there in-active for about 2 years
     

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  7. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
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    Do a search for soundproofing, there are a few threads which have covered it to a reasonable degree. Two layers of plasterboard on the walls helps stiffen them up and the mass helps reduce bass transmission a little. Flexible walls can act like bass traps so the sub woofer won't sound as good as in a room with solid walls.

    Room echo can be a problem with hard surfaces, and there are two schools of thought for how to treat the walls in an AV room with multi-speaker surround - one is that the screen wall should be non reflective (absorptive), and the lower half of the remaining walls should be absorptive below ear height. The rest should be reflective (live).

    The other is that all walls should be non reflective. A good way to do this is to put battons on the walls and lay an accoustic wadding approx 1inch thick between them, then staple material over it using the battons. Then fit some nice trim over the staples and onto the battons. This seems to be a favourite methode in the USA (Gothic of Maine is the material they use, in various colours). I just glued carpet to my walls using thick wallpaper paste and it seems to work just as well. :)

    Floors should be dead too, so carpets or rugs can help here. One way to tell if the room is 'live' or not is to try clapping - you'll get an unwanted echo if the room is too reflective. Try it before you go too far and see what it's like. If it sounds OK to you, then keep it that way. Idealy you should try it with all speakers in place so that you get an idea of what it will sound like in practice.

    Wall colours can make a considerable impact on image quality, so no bright gloss colours. Darker colours are best, and use a matt paint so reflections are kept to a minimum.

    I have used my loft as my projection room, and I've used some of the ideas as suggested. There are some pics on my website if you want to take a look.

    Gary.
     
  8. paulr

    paulr
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    Gary,nice work mate.
    Just one question...does it feel a bit wierd going into the loft to watch a film,no just nipping into the kitchen to get a beer,answering the phone in the hall etc.
     
  9. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
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    Hi Paul,

    Well, when I first did it all, it was like a bit of an adventure with the big screen etc, but now it's more like a Saturday night out. We take drinks up with us, and there's plenty of popcorn already up there. If the phone rings, there's an extension up there too so it's no problem to answer it.

    I even have a smoke alarm linked to the one down stairs, so I'll know if anythings on fire before it burns the floor away from under us. :)

    Gary.
     
  10. Roguey

    Roguey
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    ah thanks for the more information, just got one side wall in-place nothing on it yet.

    with "Gary Lightfoot", i agree u think theses 'extra' rooms wont make much use, however when u start to use them, u use them a lot of the time. They basically the extra stuff thats over the 'basic' house.

    so, get me if im wrong - so echo is unwanted? basically?

    and also should the walls be 'heaver' or 'lighter' to absorb or bounce sound?

    and lastly the floor, if laminate, do you recommend a thicker underlay? and some mats

    many thanks for ur help! :thumbsup:
     
  11. gaz

    gaz
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    yes get rid of the echo
    and the floor for maximum benefit use both pads and underlay at least 3mm underlay that stuff from B&Q last time i saw it was only about 1.5mm and wouldn't make any difference
     
  12. Roguey

    Roguey
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    hi, as in pads, do u mean them green titles? if so, with them tiles do u have to use underlay too with them? (atleast 3mm?)

    thanks for the great advice so far! :thumbsup:
     
  13. gaz

    gaz
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    yes i do mean the green tiles, you dont have to use extra under lay with them but it would be better but like i said don't bother with the 1.5 mm underlay if if you are going to use underlay then use 3mm as this will be better
    don't be tempted in using carpet underlay or anything else that isn't meant for laminated floors or you will end up with a very bouncy floor and loose joints.
    Garry
     
  14. Roguey

    Roguey
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    thanks gaz for the replies. i thought u guys might like some pictures, tell me what u think and that...

    only one wall is done, the other (as u can see) is only started on. all the timber on the walls are 4x2", roof timbers are 6x2" and ply is 20mm.

    what will happen with the walls is that fibre glass will be added between a sheet of plaster board (on the outside (what u can see)) and a sheet of ply. The ply be added onto the inside of the room, and then over that will be another sheet of thicker plaster board.

    thanks
     

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  15. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
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    Looks good!

    You should end up with a very pleasing cinema room - mine is similar, but smaller, and I still thoroughly enjoy it everytime I go up there. :)

    The side walls should be pretty stiff with the 4 x 2s and the ply/plasterboard, so you shouldn't have too many problems with a lack of bass.

    Looking forward to the finished results. What colurs are you going to do the room?

    Gary.
     
  16. Roguey

    Roguey
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    well im looking forward to the end results too.. i was thinking some light colours
     
  17. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
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    Brighter walls can sometimes reflect light back onto the screen and wash the image out a little and/or cause some colouration, as well as reducing the contrast. Of course not many people like a dark room. It also depends on how picky you are on image quality - it's better to be less picky otherwise it can become a bit of an obsession. :p

    Darker walls and complete light control are more ideal for a cinema room, but again, if the room's not just for projection, you'll have to live with the darker colours all the time. Who wants to sit in a dungeon? :)

    When using lighter colours, a matt paint will be better as it is less reflective.

    Gary.
     
  18. Roguey

    Roguey
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    i agree with who wants to live in a dark dungeon as at the moment im in a dark room of the house (as i often spent a lot of time in the upstairs, where it is a brighter environment). I dont use a projection screen, but a monitor - ill really need to get a bigger one sorted, but prices of LCD/Plasma are high and changing all the time, so ill rather wait.

    Im just wondering can a dark room effect your mode or so.

    i was thinking of putting mat in anyway, i doubt we used much slik in the house anyway.

    just one quick q, will the shape of the ceiling and slides effect the sound? as its not a 'standard' box shape..

    looks like also one of them brick walls is going have to be simply 'rebuilt' as its soo weak, the guy who did it 20 or so years ago was an idiot - the cemet simply rubs off and not even tied in. Its not just there, the whole house is like it - we been repairing it and making it stronger.

    thanks :smashin:
     
  19. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
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    I have a very similar cinema room to yours - mine is also in the loft! There are some pics of it in the link at the bottom of my posts. It's not as nice as yours, but serves it's purpose.

    I had some concerns with the screen being very close to the sloping ceilings, so my choice of Kodak grey was purely functional, and as my room is for projection only so the colours are purely for that purpose. I don't use the room for anything lese, and as I only really look at the screen when I'm up there, the colours were chosen for the purpose of trying to keep the screen image unblemished from external reflections etc.

    As for audio, I can't say that the sloping ceilings have made a noticable difference compared to my lounge set-up. The only problem I did have was with the rear surround speakers (on the back wall of a 6.1 set-up), was that the sound seemed to come from the front - it was if it was bouncing off the screen and being more audible from the front than the rear. I eventualy found that bipole speakers fixed the problem and now I have 4 of them - two as side surrounds and two as rear surrounds.

    My lower walls below ear height are carpeted to help reduce unwanted echoes etc, and compared to what it was like before I did that, it has worked very well.

    Gary.
     
  20. Roguey

    Roguey
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    looks like u have to leave them side supports in? lucky here the timber is big enough without having to do that, bet u wish u could remove them?

    btw what speakers are you using? spec etc?

    thanks
     
  21. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
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    I left them in as it emant I didn't have to do any structural work, and you don't notice them when a movie's playing. I may strip it all out and have it done properly at aome time, but that depends on if I want to move or not.

    The main stereo speakers are some old Scott 197b's. I heard them whilst demoing some Wharfedale speakers, and these sounded deeper and clearer, plus they were sheaper (£300 a pair back in 1981 IIRC). They only go down to 38hz despite having 15inch woofers, but they sound great for movies. They've got adjustable midrange and tweeters which can be useful.

    The center is an Acoustic Energy Aegis center, and the rears are 4 Eltax Ht2 bipoles. I was using Aegis Ones but had to change the rears due to imaging problems mentioned earlier. The HT2s that replaced them sounded pretty good, so I swapped the side ones too.

    I also have two Rel Q200Es and some bass shakers in the seats. Not an expensive system but works well for movies. I don't listen to music up there, so musicality isn't a requirement. I use a Behringer feedback destroyer to smooth out the rooms bass response. It wasn't that bad to start with, but is a tad better now.

    Gary.
     
  22. Roguey

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    sounds ok to me. i wouldnt worry how low the main front speakers go down to, as i would of thought u using an 80hz crossover? or are u using them as full range speakers? i know mine will go down to 35hz (8" woofers) but i dont really use that, but let the subwoofer do that job - as its much better at it with its own 12" woofer.

    oh and talking of which - where have u put them subs? i used to have mine at the side (when i was upstairs before), but then moved it to the front and thought it was better.

    also just wondering what made u put carpet on the walls? as i doubt ill be doing things like that. I want to keep it bright and 'clean' looking mainly

    just an quick status update, about 40% of one side is boarded and filled with fiber glass now and the other is done compelety.

    oh ps. does sound like u like mixing makes :laugh:
     
  23. Gary Lightfoot

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    After some experimentation, I now leave the amp to send all bass below 80hz to the subs and shakers (which are set to react below 50hz). Both subs are under the screen between the main speakers.

    I put carpet on the walls for two reasons - the first being that I had unwanted echo that needed to be addressed, and the second is that for multi speaker av rooms, the lower walls should be absorptive (dead) and the upper walls should be reflective (live). The screen wall should be totaly dead. Having said that, there's another school of thought that says all walls should be dead because you don't get reflections in real life, so that's how the room should be. The choice is yours of course.

    As for speaker makes, I already had the Scotts, and thought it would be a shame not to use them. I needed a center, and the AE One sounds pretty good to me (Scott don't exist any more as far as I can tell), and during a film you'de be hard pushed to hear a difference in timber (test tones are more revealing though). All rears are the same so you get an even surround field there that's still accurate like a point source and with no imaging problems. In a perfect world I'd be using a single manufacturer all round, but to be honest, I don't have any problems with the audio so it seems like an unnecessary expense. If audio is that much of a concern, you might want to consider a perforated screen and place either your center or all three speakers behind it. That can bring other issues into play though. Having only the screen visible and everything else hidden away can be cleaner looking than having them all on display, but chances are you won't see them during playback anyway (assuming all lights are off).

    To see if your room is too live, try the clap test - clap your hands and see if you get any slap echo. If you do, there's a good chance you'll have an audible echo and messy sound during playback. You'll need to absorb those echoes so some room treatment may be needed. Using a mirror you can address the first reflections by sticking sound deading material to the walls at those pints, or you can do it for the entire wall. I used carpet which is cheap, and worked for me. Others use acoustic batting and accousticly transparent material to cover it and make it look nicer.

    Furniture can have the same effect as wall coverings though, which is why most (floor) carpeted lounges sound fine generaly. If you don't have much furniture between you and the screen, then you'll have less absorbing surfaces so reflections may be a problem.

    Gary,
     
  24. loftfuton

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    Roguey

    I have a very similar loft conversion, and would recommend, if you arn't considering it already, dimmable spot-lights placed behind the screen to the sides - bias lighting. As long as the light does not fall on the screen, they provide a very relaxing environment when watching a film. Correctly adjusted they will illuminate things enough so you don't feel you are in a cave, but won't affect the picture quality. Indeed there is a school of thought - which I agree with having experienced it - that they give a perceived improvement in contrast.

    Good luck

    Harry
     
  25. Roguey

    Roguey
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    i was looking into dimming lights with an remote a few days ago - however the cheapist unit i found with a few 'preset' levels was like starting at £100. I wanted to find an remote one as the pc has an ir device so it could control the units by itself
     
  26. loftfuton

    loftfuton
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    Roguey

    Finances were tight for me, so I use x-10 system to control lights. Hasn't given me any problems and for what it is I am very happy with it. If you'r interested do a search as I know some people have had problems.

    Harry
     
  27. Roguey

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    heres an quick re-cap and an update of the current events of the 'upstairs':

    the first thing really had to do is re-do the secondary support to the roof (periling) as they was not in-line / straight when they were installed. As the timbers are 6x2" we recken the roof could of supported withou periling however for safety we had to add some temportaly support.

    after the temp support was in, we could adjust the periling to correct place. Soon as it was, it was bolted and screwed rather than just nailed as before. So hopefully what working with is a more staighter room.

    after that, each end of the upstairs was took back to the bare walls, and both walls were took down a bit and re-tied into the external wall making the whole wall a lot more stronger.

    after that pannels were built under the periling to link it to the floor timbers of the upstairs, making the whole struture strong. After that had to fibre glass the walls and put plaster board on it. The end where the home cinemia system is to be installed as 19mm thick ply wood sheets on the wall, rather than just platerboard to strengton the walls. The other end is spaced out the 19mm with off-cuts of the ply.

    now the two end walls were re-worked on. A false wall was installed to basically take all the cables. This includes UHF (FM/TV), telephone, 7.1 surround sound speaker terminals, 5 power sockets (4 being dobule) and a tubing system installed to take any cables to the screen or the right side from the left side of the room where the reciever will be sitting. In the below picture you can see that the big red cable is the speaker ones - the top row of boxes are speakers, the second row are for data (left for sky if installed, middle for telephone, uhf etc. and the right is the tubing system.

    this wall then was firbre glassed, ply wood and then plasterbaord installed onto it.

    the lightning system just a few days ago was installed, the tranformers being installed into the roof space just basically so the cable runs were shorter. each 12v transformer is mounted on some plaster board - incase it get hot, which doubt it will get that hot. Being installed are 12v 12x50w bulbs, whost this maybe a lot, there will be a IR dimmer controling this with re-set modes and with 2 circults (circult 1 - 6 x 50w, circult 2 - 6 x 50w). The circults are arranged set 1 front, set 2 back. So basically you be able to dim either the front or back of the lightning system, having each circult ranging from 0% to 100%, so it may be used for dvd mode, full brightness, off, background lightning etc. At the moment only the transformers are done, and the plaster board hasnt been installed on the celing yet.

    just today, the air-vention system is started to be installed. this will recycle the air around the room, and will be able to control how much % of new air to get from the outside ranging from 5% upto 50%. Air-con units will also be installed in the wrose weather, so its nice and cool.

    today, just got finished a kinda-of half box section of the extract grill. This part will be in the celing, and uses 2x4" pipes. The fan for doign this will be a 12" ventixa fan. There is also another fan extraction to the outside, which can be used as natural air output/input or with fan - extraction.

    sorry for my bad english or anything. ill keep ya update as things go on. if you have any questions, just ask away :)
     
  28. Roguey

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    just an quick update, plastering on the project is nearly done, only a few more days at it and it should all be done, then onto the next stage, rubbing down & painting.

    decided to get a fututriox P100 dimmer for the lightning. We had it for a bit now, but only once tried it as the room isnt ready for it, and covering it in plaster would be not a lot of fun.

    p.s. I had to remove all the pictures from the above post, due to the server were they was stored is gone for good :(
     

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