New JVC laser line - rumours ?

clausdk

Active Member
If they "just" smack a laser in the NX9 and call it NLX9 and no proper z1 replacement they are effectively leaving the 30k+ market to Sony. It's my understanding that the z1 sold well so why not have a marketshare?

If they are capable it would make sense to do a Z2 with 5k lumens at 35-50k+ euro. It would be very good for compitition also.
 

Furnace Inferno

Well-known Member
It may have sold well in the U.S but I think it bombed in Europe which is why it was discontinued here.
 

alebonau

Well-known Member
they "just" smack a laser in the NX9 and call it NLX9 and no proper z1 replacement they are effectively leaving the 30k+ market to Sony. It's my understanding that the z1 sold well so why not have a marketshare?

Yep I can’t see them just walking away from that segment … it’s an easy road too as already have this platform as basis. And yes enthusiasts still bought. And still sold here, just special order :)

they are capable it would make sense to do a Z2 with 5k lumens at 35-50k+ euro. It would be very good for compitition also

Yep unless not viable financially I can’t see them not updating the Z line at some point … the Z for the upper end theatres can take pride of place …
 

IWC Dopplel

Distinguished Member
I think part of the problem with the Z1 was the first 4K and the first laser and it had poor measurements when it first got released and it was £30k Not sure how many PJ's are sold at this price point and it felt a little experimental (at leat to me). I saw it at the Bristol show and was underwhelmed, then the first test results came out and I thought ahh that makes sense. I have been lucky enough to see it again several times and my impression was then entirely different and it looked stunning. I dont thnk I'll ever pay £30,000 for a PJ, at least not anytime soon !

Not sure how obsessive or how much cash you need to pay £30k for a PJ. Its the depreciation that's just terrible. Still surprised at this price point their isn't a finance option, so much a month on a 4 year contract with full warranty and a ballon payment. JVC and Sony should be tying in the high end customers in my view. It wouldn't encourage me as I either buy something or not and avoid finance but looking at the number of new cars a lot are happy to pay hundreds or even thousands of pounds a month and have nothing at the end other than temporary ownership
 

howieeb

Active Member
If these rumours turn out to be true I may splash out and am factoring losing up to 25% light over the years. So as long as starting lumens minus 25% equals the 2000 required for the screen, jobs a goodun.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
so if this PJ is

high lumen
jvc black levels
native 4k
lazer
hdmi 2.1


surely this PJ is end-game??
 

mb3195

Distinguished Member
so if this PJ is

high lumen
jvc black levels
native 4k
lazer
hdmi 2.1


surely this PJ is end-game??
It’s never end game. It’s only end game until something better comes out like everything else in life.
 

DB9S

Well-known Member
so if this PJ is

high lumen
jvc black levels
native 4k
lazer
hdmi 2.1


surely this PJ is end-game??
I think I know what you mean and that will be for this round/tranche.
If Sony sit on their complacent hands whilst JVC drops laser based units that keep their typical levels of contrast etc, then it may be time for a change.;)
 

GrazzaB

Well-known Member
But it will only be ‘end game’ for people with a huge AV budget I think. The N series aren’t exactly cheap so what would these be? I could well be wrong but I can’t see these being close to the N7 in pricing. If they were of course that would be massive, but they’ve still got more demand for the current N series range than they can supply, so why would they need to?
 

mb3195

Distinguished Member
But it will only be ‘end game’ for people with a huge AV budget I think. The N series aren’t exactly cheap so what would these be? I could well be wrong but I can’t see these being close to the N7 in pricing. If they were of course that would be massive, but they’ve still got more demand for the current N series range than they can supply, so why would they need to?
I think the N7 laser will be similar to the Sony 790.
 

DB9S

Well-known Member
But it will only be ‘end game’ for people with a huge AV budget I think. The N series aren’t exactly cheap so what would these be? I could well be wrong but I can’t see these being close to the N7 in pricing. If they were of course that would be massive, but they’ve still got more demand for the current N series range than they can supply, so why would they need to?
I cannot see them pricing them anything but a little lower than the Sony efforts. However, if they definitely outperform them, then there is no reason that they shouldn't to be a little higher in price than the equivalent Sony models.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
I cannot see them pricing them anything but a little lower than the Sony efforts. However, if they definitely outperform them, then there is no reason that they shouldn't to be a little higher in price than the equivalent Sony models.

Historically haven't Sony always been more expensive than JVC despite JVC offering superior performance in most aspects? There is always a Sony-tax based off of the brand name.

I agree that they won't be cheap; but if JVC knock it out of the park with a HDMI 2.1 Native 4K high lumen range laser projectors then surely thats them set for another 3-5 years of absolute dominance in the projector world and then they can just slowly lower the price every so often to destroy any upcoming competition.

If JVC decide to release a budget bulb projector then even Epson's days are numbered in the home cinema market.

The bottom line is, especially regarding DTM, all the big boys apart from JVC have been utterly complacent. JVC are now positioned to have an absolute monopoly if they decide to and I don't think epson nor Sony can match them quickly in every category, even if they wanted to.

I think however JVC will price high as opposed to look to destroy the market and protect their probable high profit margins.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
as far as i can see the rumour the middle model is likely the n9 in n9 chassis still ? modest bump in lumens 2200 in lamp to 2500 in laser. the lamp in the n9 calibrates at 1829 lumens according to Dylan S at HT review ht and only drops an amazing 5% output if use the filter.
we have no idea really how the laser version will compare.

if you are talking the Z1 chasis model then really talking current Z1 update ? which is the same current output 3000 lumens and seems to quite well match with the suggested new laser model :)
It’s not a modest increase once we take into account lamp age lumen output and it also depends how many lumens each is outputting in calibrated mode.

exciting times
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
I think the N7 laser will be similar to the Sony 790.


If the lumen numbers are true, thats the one I'd be thinking as the one to beat.

I really wish the N5 and N7 lazer if they exist will be similar-ish in lumen output.


2000 and 2500 is a pretty massive gap, where the 2500 laser provides that lot more future proofing for HDR performance if someone was to change to a bigger space.

Argh... I'll need one of my stocks to go parabolic for me to afford one.
 

IWC Dopplel

Distinguished Member
Historically haven't Sony always been more expensive than JVC despite JVC offering superior performance in most aspects? There is always a Sony-tax based off of the brand name.

I agree that they won't be cheap; but if JVC knock it out of the park with a HDMI 2.1 Native 4K high lumen range laser projectors then surely thats them set for another 3-5 years of absolute dominance in the projector world and then they can just slowly lower the price every so often to destroy any upcoming competition.

If JVC decide to release a budget bulb projector then even Epson's days are numbered in the home cinema market.

The bottom line is, especially regarding DTM, all the big boys apart from JVC have been utterly complacent. JVC are now positioned to have an absolute monopoly if they decide to and I don't think epson nor Sony can match them quickly in every category, even if they wanted to.

I think however JVC will price high as opposed to look to destroy the market and protect their probable high profit margins.

Thats potentially true looking backwards, but the LS10,000 came from nowhere and Sony moving into Laser was similar if I recall. Sony have the ability and capability to surprise
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Thats potentially true looking backwards, but the LS10,000 came from nowhere and Sony moving into Laser was similar if I recall. Sony have the ability and capability to surprise

I think both are too far away too very important characteristics: contrast and dtm.

both epson and Sony are giant companies compared to jvc so they could… but is Sony just happy collecting their Sony tax? They’ve already given up on the low end (hw65es etc) and Epson might just be happy with the low end offerings where they are clearly destroying dlp equivalents around 1k and sub 2k
 

IWC Dopplel

Distinguished Member
I’m not sure what happened to the Sony apple approach where they opened dedicated retail stores and started to focus on differentiation by aesthetics as well. I think they probably just didn’t get the appeal of apple and their channels to market didn’t allow this model to really flourish

You just don’t know with Sony they led the race to 4K, and laser. If they can make a step forward to meet JVC levels of contrast it wouldn’t surprise me. Don’t forget they sell a cinema PJ at £60k. Plus look at tech and photography. They are better placed to move the game on than JVC, whether they will is another question
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
I’m not sure what happened to the Sony apple approach where they opened dedicated retail stores and started to focus on differentiation by aesthetics as well. I think they probably just didn’t get the appeal of apple and their channels to market didn’t allow this model to really flourish

You just don’t know with Sony they led the race to 4K, and laser. If they can make a step forward to meet JVC levels of contrast it wouldn’t surprise me. Don’t forget they sell a cinema PJ at £60k. Plus look at tech and photography. They are better placed to move the game on than JVC, whether they will is another question

No doubt, Epson and Sony are giant. But they just seem to not care about projectors unless they are very expensive
 

IWC Dopplel

Distinguished Member
No doubt, Epson and Sony are giant. But they just seem to not care about projectors unless they are very expensive

I'm not sure how small the £10k plus market is, mostly US I'd guess. I guess some choose to have flagship models to add credibility and not necessarily a business case as a stand alone product
 

Stridsvognen

Well-known Member
Would you guys still want a JVC laser lamp-based machine if it reduces contrast even further, and they still dont solve the poor contrast uniformity and dust issues?
Maybe a titanium lens mount and carbon fiber ventilation ducts and turbofans would be a hit?
 

Harcoreta

Member
Would you guys still want a JVC laser lamp-based machine if it reduces contrast even further, and they still dont solve the poor contrast uniformity and dust issues?
Maybe a titanium lens mount and carbon fiber ventilation ducts and turbofans would be a hit?
I do not think that new laser machines are going to have less contrast. I suppose the poor contrast on the Z1 model is due to the immature manufacturing process in the 4K panels.

I'm working in a modification for my old RS46, from lamp to laser. I used some optics from casio projectors and made a custom phosphor wheel for the experiment, For the laser source, I'm using two laser arrays, a nichia NUBM34 (for yellow color) and a Osram PLPM4L (for blue color), I have reached the same light output comparing with the lamp.

Preliminary test...
I have "doubled" or near doubled the projector native contrast with zoom max and iris open (worst config for contrast and max light output, typical on 20000:1 to 30000:1) I measured 45000:1 to 54000:1 (depending on lens config), and max zoom iris -15 60000:1 to 68000:1 (it's above manufacturer's specifications) with only a 20% of light loss compared to iris open.

As I will not have enough money to buy a new projector, I will have to make it xD. It's working progress, probably have two or three months of work left to finish. Finally If it's reliable, I will move the mod for my main projector, a JVC x700.

Although hope to see new models, probably JVC will have a similar approach as sony, with a new "N7" laser, and a entry machine "N5" lamp based.
 

Stridsvognen

Well-known Member
I do not think that new laser machines are going to have less contrast. I suppose the poor contrast on the Z1 model is due to the immature manufacturing process in the 4K panels.

I'm working in a modification for my old RS46, from lamp to laser. I used some optics from casio projectors and made a custom phosphor wheel for the experiment, For the laser source, I'm using two laser arrays, a nichia NUBM34 (for yellow color) and a Osram PLPM4L (for blue color), I have reached the same light output comparing with the lamp.

Preliminary test...
I have "doubled" or near doubled the projector native contrast with zoom max and iris open (worst config for contrast and max light output, typical on 20000:1 to 30000:1) I measured 45000:1 to 54000:1 (depending on lens config), and max zoom iris -15 60000:1 to 68000:1 (it's above manufacturer's specifications) with only a 20% of light loss compared to iris open.

As I will not have enough money to buy a new projector, I will have to make it xD. It's working progress, probably have two or three months of work left to finish. Finally If it's reliable, I will move the mod for my main projector, a JVC x700.

Although hope to see new models, probably JVC will have a similar approach as sony, with a new "N7" laser, and a entry machine "N5" lamp based.
Interesting experiment, do you have some exact contrast measures before and after? and what meter and how your using it, specially ansi contrast is interesting together with on off contrast. and how both on off and ansi contrast uniformity behaves, i have experienced that when experimenting with JVC projectors you can gain contrast but you often loos ansi contrast, or the other way around.
 

Harcoreta

Member
Interesting experiment, do you have some exact contrast measures before and after? and what meter and how your using it, specially ansi contrast is interesting together with on off contrast. and how both on off and ansi contrast uniformity behaves, i have experienced that when experimenting with JVC projectors you can gain contrast but you often loos ansi contrast, or the other way around.
I don't have contrast measures before on this machine, but comparing with my x700 I measured 20000:1 with zoom max and iris open. In this configuration all JVC projectors are practically giving the same measurements.

For the measurements I have only been able to perform them at very low laser power, the projector is practically open and there is a lot of light pollution in my room. The tricky part is that I have to place the colorimeter very close to the lens to minimize this light contamination. In theory I suppose that these contrast numbers should be the same with the laser operating at high power, or maybe they will be little better numbers at least in the center of the screen since I will be measuring a smaller portion of the screen.

With the phosphor laser source and the correct optics, the light is more controlled and passes more cleanly through the projector lightpath, less light contamination and light reflections compared with the lamp, and it's why the contrast numbers are better.

Anyway I have to do tests with the experiment totally isolated and with high power, may be that I am wrong with my assumptions.

About the corners, and ANSI contrast I don't know, but this night or tomorrow I could try to cover the projector and do more reliable measurements with high power, please tell me if you want any specific measurement test ;)

I'm using an old Spyder 4 (don't have good color accuracy) for the measures facing the lens projector. Also have a x-rite i1Display pro, but this have less total work range, It's more color reliable but only used for take the measures on the screen.

Another improvement is that I can use the high illuminance mode with a calibration close to the D6500, the phosphor wheel is custom made and you can controll separately the power of yellow and blue colors.

And last interesting thing have done a code a for do a dynamic lighting, using two programmable power supply (DPM8608), and with the ffms2.dll plugin that works with avisynth you can log to an archive the average luminance in the scene. I did a simple script in powershell to take that information and send the desired voltaje command to the power supply. Could get ∞:1 dynamic contrast :)
 

Stridsvognen

Well-known Member
I don't have contrast measures before on this machine, but comparing with my x700 I measured 20000:1 with zoom max and iris open. In this configuration all JVC projectors are practically giving the same measurements.

For the measurements I have only been able to perform them at very low laser power, the projector is practically open and there is a lot of light pollution in my room. The tricky part is that I have to place the colorimeter very close to the lens to minimize this light contamination. In theory I suppose that these contrast numbers should be the same with the laser operating at high power, or maybe they will be little better numbers at least in the center of the screen since I will be measuring a smaller portion of the screen.

With the phosphor laser source and the correct optics, the light is more controlled and passes more cleanly through the projector lightpath, less light contamination and light reflections compared with the lamp, and it's why the contrast numbers are better.

Anyway I have to do tests with the experiment totally isolated and with high power, may be that I am wrong with my assumptions.

About the corners, and ANSI contrast I don't know, but this night or tomorrow I could try to cover the projector and do more reliable measurements with high power, please tell me if you want any specific measurement test ;)

I'm using an old Spyder 4 (don't have good color accuracy) for the measures facing the lens projector. Also have a x-rite i1Display pro, but this have less total work range, It's more color reliable but only used for take the measures on the screen.

Another improvement is that I can use the high illuminance mode with a calibration close to the D6500, the phosphor wheel is custom made and you can controll separately the power of yellow and blue colors.

And last interesting thing have done a code a for do a dynamic lighting, using two programmable power supply (DPM8608), and with the ffms2.dll plugin that works with avisynth you can log to an archive the average luminance in the scene. I did a simple script in powershell to take that information and send the desired voltaje command to the power supply. Could get ∞:1 dynamic contrast :)
ill recommend using the xrite i1display pro for contrast measurements, its very accurate up to around 80000:1, at the same time it can also do the ansi contrast, ill guess around 60-100cm from the lens with the diffusor on would work.
My experience is that you need to know the exact contrast on the projector you working on, before and after, as the factory tolerances is all over the place, you can basically have a native contrast from 12000:1 to 40000:1 on any of these max zoom, when you measure ansi contrast you will likely see its lowest in the center, a 5X5 ansi pattern works best for me, HCFR is perfect together with the i1display pro.
 

Harcoreta

Member
ill recommend using the xrite i1display pro for contrast measurements, its very accurate up to around 80000:1, at the same time it can also do the ansi contrast, ill guess around 60-100cm from the lens with the diffusor on would work.
My experience is that you need to know the exact contrast on the projector you working on, before and after, as the factory tolerances is all over the place, you can basically have a native contrast from 12000:1 to 40000:1 on any of these max zoom, when you measure ansi contrast you will likely see its lowest in the center, a 5X5 ansi pattern works best for me, HCFR is perfect together with the i1display pro.
thank you!, I'll give a try with the xrite i1display pro, and yes, I'm ussing HCFR ;)

wow! 12000:1 to 40000:1 from unit to unit it's not a good deal :eek:, it's like saying... let's go play the lottery when you get a brand new projector. I thought there was not so much difference for the little information I had read (thinking 20000:1 to 30000:1)
I can't revert it easily to install the lamp, I will have to wait if I move the invention to the x700 if that happens, and so could see the real gains.

I'll take some photos in the current state of this FrankensJVC projector xD
 

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