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New info on Sagem Axium HDCP problem !!!

Discussion in 'Televisions' started by ashleyhyatt@mac, Jan 24, 2005.

  1. ashleyhyatt@mac

    ashleyhyatt@mac
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    Hi,

    As some of you have prob read from some of my other threads... I got the Sagem Axium from John Lewis about a month ago.

    Ive been hasling Sagem so much about the issue of the HDCP and wanting to know about upgrades etc. After not gettin much info I asked John Lewis to look into this for me. They managed to get me the phone number for the top guy at Sagem !

    This top guy from Sagem has told me that if it comes to it they may replace the board to enable HDCP but are trying not to take this route. Instead they are in talks with Sky to get them to add Component output to the Sky HDTV box and then the DVI would not support HDTV because there is no HDCP !

    Am I right in thinking that DVI or HDMI would be better picture quality than component ???
     
  2. Razor

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    HDMI and DVI is a far better connection than component for picture quality. Component is a compramise over the other two connections. I have read some where of people swapping out a board as you mention. But they had to pay for it. I think the board was from the US. I'm sorry I dont have the link but it was before xmas I saw this thread.

    Good Luck
     
  3. Mose

    Mose
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    Pictures I am getting from PC via DVI are superb. My component output is terrible and am waiting for a Sagem engineer to call and see if it is faulty.

    Fingers crossed for Sagem getting their act together and upgrading everyone's sets.
     
  4. johnsagem

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    At least it sounds like Sagem's customer support are communicative! I'll have to give them a ring myself :)

    I really can't see them convincing sky - or rather sky convincing their program providers to allow them to use an unprotected output if a protected one exists.

    Look at D-VHS in the USA. Studios wouldn't release pre-recorded material without the D-Theater protection system, despite the fact there was probably a significant (by D-VHS standards ;-) number of people with incompatible machines.

    I read in one forum that a cable company have been forced to delete episodes of 6 feet under from their customers hard drives after 2 months or so. With that kind of paranoia from Hollywood, I really can't see Sky being allowed to provide unprotected content even if it wants to.

    At the moment, Sagem owners probably account for a good percentage of people with high definition capability, but with that model being discontinued and new models being launched thick and fast, our significance as potential customers for sky will dwindle.

    Even if Sky give in and give us analogue component outputs (I read somewhere that DVI/HDMI gives a 3db better signal, not sure how significant that is), what about Blu-Ray / HD-DVD? I think the current Sony Blu-Ray machine available in Japan has component outputs, but how long will that last once Hollywood start releasing pre-recorded content?

    I don't think we have any come-back under the sale of goods act, after all they do say in the manual that the DVI is for a PC only. What made me decide to take the risk and purchase was the internet rumours that they were going to provide a free upgrade. Of course I should have got confirmation in writing straight from the horses mouth ;-)

    Does anyone have anything in writing from them?

    Our only hope as I see it, is that in order to maintain the good reputation they've built up, they do the upgrade as a goodwill gesture. Perhaps we should join forces and shout at them in Unison ;-)
     
  5. johnsagem

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  6. evolution400

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    I cant see sky giving in myself besides compo****e is what.......one step up from RF in quality.
    I would prefer to pay a resonable price for another board or wait and buy a DVD player or device with a HDCP disable hack such as the samsung player had.
    Besides when is the launch date for SKY HD and will they actaully keep to it ?
     
  7. hornydragon

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    hmm interesting..... i wonder what PACE and Panasonic will make of all this then...........it may be that sky allow some content to be broadcast via non eHDCP (i think it can be enabled/disabled per transmission) so i guess there is some hope for Sky/Panny/Pio MXE plasma owners..... i should yhink panny would have more clout in the UK especially as they hold/held an STB liscence for Sky boxes..........
     
  8. ashleyhyatt@mac

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    I spoke to Sagems top guy on the phone today... he said they will never give any written confirmation because things are changing to much. He also said that they will be changing the boards only as a last resort :(

    I was very suprised that he recommended I take back my Axium to John Lewis and get the new model that is out in couple of weeks. I've already spoken to John Lewis and they will give me a refund :) WOOOHOOO

    Only thing im worried about is the new Sagem 45inch does not have HDMI but does have HDCP on the DVI input... does anyone think that this will cause me any problems in the future ?
     
  9. Mose

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    I think SAGEM will have to bow the knee on this one and give their customers what they deserve........ A FREE UPGRADE!!! Sky wont give in over this, I think that is common sense.

    Thinking about it, do you think that SAGEM are going to look favourable if they leave all of their AXIUM owners without the ability to view material via the DVI port? Also, I dont think they will want all of the bad press about it either. SAGEM are a very small player in the TV world, so what makes them think they can influence SKY to drop it?

    Just my view!!!!
     
  10. loz

    loz
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    given the fuss, I am surprised Sagem still haven't given the new HD-D45 a pukka HDMI socket.

    I know folks will say, ah but HDCP over DVI is OK, but it's likely there's gonna be tons of innocent punters looking for HDTV next year who will pass by anything without HDMI, or scratch their heads when confronted with sources such as Sky+ and DVD players that have HDMI outputs, when the D45 has DVI
     
  11. Mose

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  12. ashleyhyatt@mac

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    I thought the same... but... you can already get HDMI to DVI cables from Maplin... surely if you have a DVD player, Sky HDTV or anything else an adaptor lead would do the job... the only thing is you wouldnt get your sound through DVI like you would HDMI... but my surround system is optical or coaxial anyway... so can anyone see any probs I might have not having a HDMI cable ? (The DVI port on the HD-45 is HDCP)

    I'd appreciate peoples thoughts or views on this as I have to make a decision ASAP as I only have a week or two to get my Axium back to John Lewis for a refund !
     
  13. Bruce1310

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    Hi

    There should be no problem as long as player, future sky box, etc can handshake with display....and if both are HDCP they should regardless of whether they have DVI or a HDMI. I took the plunge and ordered the HD-D45.

    Bruce
     
  14. Hellicopter

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    There is no doubt that Sagem UK want solve this problem.
    However the solution lies in France where Sagem are based and where there are many more owners.
    If the French broadcasters adopt,as is likely ,hdcp then there will be much more pressure on Sagem to sort it.
    Alan
     
  15. johnsagem

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    Excellent! Bet you are well pleased.

    I had been toying with the idea of asking them to swap mine out, though I have had it for 2 months, but their Customer Service tends to be excellent, so it's got to be worth a punt.

    Have a look in your DVD players menu. On mine, there is an option which toggles between Composite and RGB, if I choose the wrong one then I get a green tint.

    Maybe I'm just using the "wrong" disks ;-) Anyone tried Lost in Translation R2, Hero R3 or Hulk R1? These all look like 3rd generation VHS to me. Naturally I don't expect it to look as good as on a 28", or as good as D-VHS, but they really do look bad.

    If I use the PAP and put it into 4:3, they look really good, but in full screen they look washed out, grainy and awash with dot crawl.

    Something not right there!
     
  16. Mose

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    BLOODY FRENCH!!!


    ****And I am French, LOL!! :laugh:
     
  17. chaplic

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    Ive just been on the phone to Sagem tech support to register my telly as it occurred to me that there wasn't a warranty card or anything in the box (bought just before xmas). I mentioned the HDCP upgrade, as the sagem tech support had told me about this pre-christmas, and was told it won't be a problem, can I ring back in two weeks with a customer number he gave me and they'd schedule an engineer. Interesting !
     
  18. St_ve

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    Hi Mose
    U seem to be the only person on the DLP forum who's got a top DVD player Denon 3910 & has also used their PC on their DLP set
    My problem is the R1 judder on the RD50 & to solve it i will have to build myself a HTPC.I already know you can get a superb picture using winDVD6 through the DVI input (i use my monitors DVI cable) with my Radeon X800pro (Radeon9800pro not as good with DVD movie playback picture quality)
    My question is how would you compare the picture quality of your Denon 3910 with a PC software DVD player. If a top DVD player has a better output than a PC solution i might be better of returning my set & going for the Sagem Axium 45" i see someone's got it already :lease:
     
  19. Mose

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    ST_VE,

    This one is a difficult one to answer, since I havent yet had the chance to view DVDs played from my 3910 via DVI. Pictures from the Samsung and the Phillips DVD on my PC are superb, but like I said in the other forum, I really cannot compare or justify one over the other, there simply isnt any difference in quality.

    Comparing the DVI images with the current RGB images on my 3910, I would definately say that the DVI wind hands down over the depth of blacks and the whole 3D imaging. PLay a disc like Monster's Inc or Toy Story 2 and the images literally come alive, as if they werent already breathtaking when played via the 3910 using RGB. However, having said that, I prefer to watch movies via my 3910. Cant be arsed setting up the PC downstairs everytime I wanna watch a film. :mad:

    Like I said in the other thread, this whole issue of the AXIUMs HDCP compliance is really getting to me. SAGEM have definately got to offer the upgrade.
     
  20. Mose

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    SAGEM PROMOTES HDTV????? Wht do other Axium owners think of this??

    The whole article talks about the Sagem Axium being completely setup for HDTV. Funny how they suggest that the set has a bespoke DVI input ready for high definition??

    What do others think about this??
     
  21. watersa@ntlworl

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    I just registered for the software upgrade an hour ago, said it would be a couple of weeks & an enginer would contact me.
    The guy I spoke to was very confident a HDCP fix would be forthcoming, he was quite convincing about it?

    To be honest it's not entirely their fault & as long as they do an upgrade even at a reasonable extra cost I'll be happy.
     
  22. Billy Hunt

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    All this worry and concern about Sky HDTV and it isn't even out yet :rolleyes:
    Who's to say Sky won't change the final spec or don't even use HDCP or HDMI?
    Or that the service will be delayed another year or two.
    I'm just trying to put it into perspective here nobodys missing out on anything yet!

    Trying to totally future proof any electrical purchase is almost an endless task nobody knows whats to come in the future.
    So there really isn't a HDCP problem as yet there may be in a year or twos time but who knows?
     
  23. watersa@ntlworl

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    I hear wot your saying Billy
    The point is that manufactures all seem to be at the mercy of Sky & their intention? as Sky have now comitted to HDCP it should be plain sailing & I am optimistic that Sagem even tho messed about by Sky's dithereing will keep their customers happy
     
  24. johnsagem

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    Sky have already confirmed they will be using HDCP:
    http://www.homecinemachoice.com/cgi-bin/shownews.php?id=7347

    Things might change, but HDMI/DVI seems the most logical way for them to go since other manufacturers seem to be fitting them as standard now. Even if something new comes along, I can only see them going for that if the protection on HDCP is too easy to crack.

    The urgency as far as I am concerned is that I've got a 2 month old Sagem that I (admitedly foolishly!) bought on the strength of the Internet rumours that they were going to fix the HDCP issue free of charge after Christmas.

    At the moment, if there is no guarantee of a fix then there is still a small chance that the retailer may be persuaded to take it back and exchange it for the new model, or I may be able to sell it on Ebay and get a reasonable percentage of what I paid back.

    As you say, Sky Digital is going to be at least a year down the track, perhaps longer (though I guess they will be striving to get it out for the 2006 World Cup - always a big seller for new tellys)

    So by the time it's here, I will have a set that is over a year old, with absolutely zero chance of returning it to the retailer, and with a fairly low resale value (especially as people will actively be looking for sets compatible with Sky Digital by then).

    From what I've read from people who have spoken to them, Sagem have a solution to the problem, but it's going to be expensive for them to implement. They will only do it if enough people complain / they get bad publicity.

    So if we don't hassle them now and let them sweep it under the carpet then there's going to be nothing we can do by the time HD Sky, Blu-Ray/HD DVD come along.
     
  25. St_ve

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    Mose thanks for the reply i apreciate the feedback
    theres only 2 of us on the RD50threads posting about PC related to DLP i know
    Sagem say the DVI is PC only but surely your Denon 3910 should work on it, your pc
    is sending a DVI tv signal the same as the 3910 would or am i missing something.
    I have tried the PC x800pro through the VGA input & thought it was a great picture & then i tried DVI that is a truly great picture big diference.
    http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_12_1/denon-dvd-3910-dvd-player-1-2005.html
    The link is to a US site it's a review of the 3910 if u dig a little deeper on the site theres a group review of DVD players that goes into great detail on the 3910
    It was top of my list along with a arcam79 to audition before finding out the PC was so good.(wonder what the picture will be like in 10 years with the radeon 99900xz special edition)
    I read an article home cinema by John Archer who said sagem had written to him saying there would'nt be a fix but u cud still get sky thru compo**** (not sure of spelling) John Archer said Sagem could not be sure of that. it was dated around 12th Jan 2005
    I would be surprised if nobody cracked HDCP it did'nt take 5 minutes before the last copy protection system was cracked.
    If it turns out u can't get hidef sky in 2006 u can always download the divx hidef movies & play them on your PC & u can do it now.
    www.ukonline.net are ofering 8 MB broadband for £39 a month makes AOL's 1MB for £30 look a bit sick, u can type in your postcode to see if you can get it
    Good luck in your fight with Sagem i agree they should offer a fix, take back your sets or offer compensation.
    Just found out my keyboard is playing up its intermitent if i type s or h or i or t it *omet*mes comes out as * :devil:
     
  26. Mose

    Mose
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    The PC was built by a friend of mine, who tells me that the DVD player on there will play DVDs via the Sagem without any problems. I'm not that technically minded to sort these things out myself, but am assured that the player will handle all the HDCP issues.

    Have tried the Denon a few times via the DVI and I do get a picture, but the picture comes out frame by frame.

    I know there is a fuss about this HDCP issue, and Sky HD not even on the Horizon as yet, but I never watch telly so am not really bothered about Sky at all. I just want to watch my movies on my 3910 via HDMI/DVI.
     
  27. St_ve

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    When Sagem say PC only DVI they really mean it.!
    Texas Instruments say their DLP chips should last 20 years & the picture should be as good as new over that time period with lamp replacement every 2 or 3 years.
    That could be a long time not being able to watch the HiDef DVDs on the new Blueray
    HDCP DVD players.
    I reckon there's a 13 year old with zits & glasses somewhere who has just been given
    somebody's old computer for Xmas who is destined to become Hollywood's biggest nightmare C ur PC has trouble with the i's same as mine perhaps there's a new virus? :devil:
     
  28. Razor

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    There has to be an external fix via a box for the HDCP issue on sky.

    Think about all these people who have hi-def capable displays and dont have HDCP on their sets. A company such as lektropacks or keene will more than likely be the people to produce such a unit.

    DVI connection is the way forward and once you try it as Steve and I have you wont want to go back. The picture quality is the best I have seen from any connection. My first introduction to DVI was via the pc and 17' lcd screen. The image was instantly better, with 1:1 mapping and a far more realsitic colour representation.

    The 3910 was a choice player for me before the r1 judder issue on the Optoma set I own. However after seeing the picture off a good pc set up, a dvi connection and reading about problems with the 3910 in the dvd section of these forums, I have changed my mind.

    The flexibility of a HTPC is far greater.
    New improved play back software beign released all the time, powerfull scallers, Hi-def play back and the option of buying either a blue ray drive or a hd dvd in one machine.
    This is in addition to an instant library of titles on your hard drive.

    To be honest I am glad I didnt go the route of buying the 3910.
     
  29. loz

    loz
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    Oh no they won't. That's the whole point of it.

    Of course, I wouldn't put it past man's ingenuity to build one, but expect certain parties to come down on them like a ton of bricks if they do. Not that this ever stopped the Chinese...
     
  30. watersa@ntlworl

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    Aaah the Chinese blessem ;-) :smashin:
     

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