New Home Build - Need help with speaker choices and layout

gtiracer

Novice Member
First time poster, long time lurker. Here is my current situation. Note: My usage will be 60% cinema, 40% music (classical, alternative, rock, pop, jazz, hip-hop).

1. Building a new home (walkout ranch). Basement level has a nice large open area (19.5' x 18.5'). Ceiling is 9'.
2. Pretty much locked in on KEF speakers (which models has become the challenge).
3. Planning on mounting an 86" flat panel smack in the middle of the 19.5' wall.
4. Opposite the TV and behind the MLP are 2 windows (I have a solution for glare, so not concerned about that).
5. On either side of the windows will be my rear surrounds. My plan is to wall mount those at 45-50" above the floor.
6. On the left side of the MLP is a full wall (with a doorway at the very corner). This gives me plenty of space to mount a side surround (on the left).
7. On the right side of the MLP there is a large open area (almost the same size as the space I am creating with the HT setup). Because it is open, we are adding a 10" header/beam to provide some "aesthetic" separation between the rooms. Because of this, the right side surround can only be mounted 8" from the ceiling. This means my side surround on the left will have to be at the same height (far above ear position of around 44" from floor).
8. Fronts can either be wall mounted or floor-standing. Same with center channel.
9. 4 atmos ceiling speakers will be installed at appropriate position relative to MLP.
10. Subs will sit on the floor (positioning TBD).

My ideas (that I need help vetting) and also problem/questions are as follows:

1. The height of the side surrounds has me concerned. I planned on using KEF Q350 for rear surrounds and side surrounds. If I do, I might be able to use an after market mount from Rockville Audio to allow for angling of the rear surrounds toward the MLP. It may also allow for about 10-15 degrees of tilt downward toward MLP for the side surrounds. ---OR--- I could use Q350s for the rear surrounds (as I know the mounting solution will enable perfect alignment to MLP) and T101s for the side surrounds (which also means no tilting since they mount flush for proper acoustics. Which of these (or alternatives I haven't considered) would you recommend?

2. I keep debating on what to use for front left, front right, and center channel. Initially thought the Q950s for L, R and Q650c for center. Now debating on the R3s instead (using the S2 stands and Blu-tack) and the r2c for center. Or, (since this is my first new speaker purchase since 1999), do I go R11s for fronts and the r2c for center?

3. Looking for recommendations for sub. I still have my 20+ year old Paradigm sub. I could keep that and add a 2nd sub.

4. Looking for recommendations on an AVR as well. My trusty old Yamaha is still going strong, but is only 5.1 and not up to the task for 7.2.4.

5. Thinking KEF Ci200QRs for the 4 ceiling Atmos speakers. Other thoughts? Ci160QR? Just the Ci200ER at a much better price point?

6. Will having a mix of Q350s for rear, T101 for side, and R series for fronts/center create a terrible tonal imbalance?

Thanks in advance for any/all guidance you can provide.
Brian
 

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ShanePJ

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
1. The height of the side surrounds has me concerned. I planned on using KEF Q350 for rear surrounds and side surrounds. If I do, I might be able to use an after market mount from Rockville Audio to allow for angling of the rear surrounds toward the MLP
As Kef's a wide dispersion design for how they project sound, I wouldn't worry about toeing them out

2. I keep debating on what to use for front left, front right, and center channel. Initially thought the Q950s for L, R and Q650c for center. Now debating on the R3s instead (using the S2 stands and Blu-tack) and the r2c for center. Or, (since this is my first new speaker purchase since 1999), do I go R11s for fronts and the r2c for center?
If you have the budget, then go for the R Series as they are much better suited musical duties when called upon. Where you need the R11 over the R3's will depend up which sub you have and how you use it (high-level woofers are very good when you want to double the system for stereo playback)

3. Looking for recommendations for sub. I still have my 20+ year old Paradigm sub. I could keep that and add a 2nd sub.
Good subs should stay good subs, but that will depend upon how well it has been looked after

4. Looking for recommendations on an AVR as well. My trusty old Yamaha is still going strong, but is only 5.1 and not up to the task for 7.2.4.
What are you replacing?

5. Thinking KEF Ci200QRs for the 4 ceiling Atmos speakers. Other thoughts? Ci160QR? Just the Ci200ER at a much better price point?
Use the largest diameter speaker as you will benefit with a better sound. One thing with Atmos, you do not need to stick with that Manufacturer as the amount of information received by them isn't enough to create an unbalanced experience. So, if you find another that better suits your room, go for that option over the brand loyalty

6. Will having a mix of Q350s for rear, T101 for side, and R series for fronts/center create a terrible tonal imbalance?
All Kef speakers have been designed to work together, but in reality, I'd be surprised if you didn't hear a small difference, but it shouldn't be enough to spoil the immersive experiences
 

gtiracer

Novice Member
As Kef's a wide dispersion design for how they project sound, I wouldn't worry about toeing them out


If you have the budget, then go for the R Series as they are much better suited musical duties when called upon. Where you need the R11 over the R3's will depend up which sub you have and how you use it (high-level woofers are very good when you want to double the system for stereo playback)


Good subs should stay good subs, but that will depend upon how well it has been looked after


What are you replacing?


Use the largest diameter speaker as you will benefit with a better sound. One thing with Atmos, you do not need to stick with that Manufacturer as the amount of information received by them isn't enough to create an unbalanced experience. So, if you find another that better suits your room, go for that option over the brand loyalty


All Kef speakers have been designed to work together, but in reality, I'd be surprised if you didn't hear a small difference, but it shouldn't be enough to spoil the immersive experiences
Thank you for taking the time to respond. I've shifted the room layout 90 degrees to the left (putting the TV on the short wall). This mostly solves my positioning issues (sans the right center surround.. it will be an extra 4.5' from the MLP as the left center surround). I expect once I calibrate SPL and timing, this should be solved.

Another quick update: I auditioned the R11s and the R3s (and also ML ESL X) and to my ears, the R11s were the very clear winner. So, I'm extending my budget and going with the R11s as LR and the R2C as center.

Regarding the side and rear surrounds, I have a new dilemma. Decided that the Q350s would look terrible in the room given their size. Found the Ci4100QL KEFs (which mount vertically) and in-wall would be a better option for the sides. But, given my rears must be up high on a 10" beam, they cannot be mounted vertically (they would stick down from the beam). Don't believe rotating these to horizontal mount will work. So, next question is:

1. Go with the Ci4100QL for side surrounds and Ci200QL for rear surrounds? Or just Ci200QL for both side and rear surrounds?

@ShanePJ Thanks for the tip on the Atmos ceiling speakers. Any recommendations on great non-KEF Atmos ceiling speakers at a good price point? I found the KEF Ci200QR for $300/ea supposedly NIB, but from a private seller so I'm a bit hesitant.

Also, @ShanePJ my old Yamaha is an RX-V995.

Thanks again,
Brian
 

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ShanePJ

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
I can see you are going to have issue with mounting your speakers high up and using atmos as both will fight against each other reducing the effects by a considerable amount

You could use the lesser of two compromises approach and actually use on-wall speakers similar to Dali's Opticon LCR's for the rear surrounds. They are a little over kill, but as you are using the R Series from Kef, using them should bring a similar audio experience to using a pair Kef's Q Series bookshelf's as they also have a nice wide dispersion charter which are not identical to the Kef's but are similar. Going down this compromise, you will still be able to enjoy the focused sound with atmos brings whereas if you run down the route of mounting your rears high, then you will lose more than you realise when wanting to experience atmos

With atmos in-ceiling speakers, ensure you are want to look for 8" speakers. As to which ones, sadly I'm not familiar as to what's available over the water and I would just look for a well received one which people recommend on AVSForums (which is the US version of AVForums).

Regarding the AVR, as you are looking at R11 and music is important, I would look at either JBL or Arcam as you need something which is going to do justice to those speakers. I'd recommend looking at AVR's around the £3.5k - £4k as anything less will be short changing yourself unless you run down the route of a HT-Bypass option

The HT-Bypass option will require you using a integrated stereo amp and a lesser AVR which can work together. Price point, in reality will not be miles away with it being a little cheaper, but it'll also be a bit harder to use to for haters of technology even though in reality, neither are really that difficult
 

gtiracer

Novice Member
I can see you are going to have issue with mounting your speakers high up and using atmos as both will fight against each other reducing the effects by a considerable amount

You could use the lesser of two compromises approach and actually use on-wall speakers similar to Dali's Opticon LCR's for the rear surrounds. They are a little over kill, but as you are using the R Series from Kef, using them should bring a similar audio experience to using a pair Kef's Q Series bookshelf's as they also have a nice wide dispersion charter which are not identical to the Kef's but are similar. Going down this compromise, you will still be able to enjoy the focused sound with atmos brings whereas if you run down the route of mounting your rears high, then you will lose more than you realise when wanting to experience atmos

With atmos in-ceiling speakers, ensure you are want to look for 8" speakers. As to which ones, sadly I'm not familiar as to what's available over the water and I would just look for a well received one which people recommend on AVSForums (which is the US version of AVForums).

Regarding the AVR, as you are looking at R11 and music is important, I would look at either JBL or Arcam as you need something which is going to do justice to those speakers. I'd recommend looking at AVR's around the £3.5k - £4k as anything less will be short changing yourself unless you run down the route of a HT-Bypass option

The HT-Bypass option will require you using a integrated stereo amp and a lesser AVR which can work together. Price point, in reality will not be miles away with it being a little cheaper, but it'll also be a bit harder to use to for haters of technology even though in reality, neither are really that difficult
You could use the lesser of two compromises approach and actually use on-wall speakers similar to Dali's Opticon LCR's for the rear surrounds. They are a little over kill, but as you are using the R Series from Kef, using them should bring a similar audio experience to using a pair Kef's Q Series bookshelf's as they also have a nice wide dispersion charter which are not identical to the Kef's but are similar. Going down this compromise, you will still be able to enjoy the focused sound with atmos brings whereas if you run down the route of mounting your rears high, then you will lose more than you realise when wanting to experience atmos

^^^ Thanks, am glad you highlighted that this would be far more impactful than I expected. So are you saying that using the KEF Q350s or even KEF Q150s for the rear surrounds (using wall mounts) would be the best path to minimize/avoid negatively impacting the ATMOS immersive sound? Also, while I have mapped out placement of all speakers from the MLP, I could use a sanity check:

  • plan to put the side surrounds at 75 degrees from MLP (so shifted ever so slightly forward of MLP). Appropriate? All the research I have done indicates in a 7.1.x setup, side surrounds should be shifted forward.
  • plan to mount the rears at 135 degrees from MLP. Does that sound about right or change given how high up they will be mounted? From the Dolby 7.1.4 diagram, it appears that while the ceiling ATMOS speakers are mostly in a direct line with the FL and FR, the rears are closer together.

As for receiver, I've been leaning towards this setup. Thoughts ?

  • Marantz AV7706
  • Marantz MM8077
  • Marantz MM7055

This is to ensure I get the most out of these KEFs. When auditioned with and without amps, the difference was impressive.
 

gtiracer

Novice Member
And yes, I'm way over budget, but, my last A/V purchase was in 1999 for my Yamaha and Paradigm setup. Figure, as with all things, better to do it right the first time then cheap out and end up not enjoying what you have and replacing it multiple times.

One more question: with wall-mounted rears, should they face directly forward (as they will on standard KEF wall mounts) or should they be angled toward MLP?
 

gtiracer

Novice Member
@ShanePJ - reading over your comment further, when you mention using on-wall for the rears, such as the Dali or KEF Qs, are you suggesting I mount those on the same side walls where the side surrounds are mounted? And that I mount the on-wall rears at roughly ear height and aim them toward MLP? Or that I could mount them up high on the cross-beam but angle them down toward MLP?

Revised diagram attached with Blue arrows indicating revised rear placement.
 

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Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
As for receiver, I've been leaning towards this setup. Thoughts ?

  • Marantz AV7706
  • Marantz MM8077
  • Marantz MM7055

This is to ensure I get the most out of these KEFs. When auditioned with and without amps, the difference was impressive.


The R3 vs. R11 comparison was flawed. R7 and two capable subs (sent PM) for music listening should be something to consider. 3600$ vs. 4800$. The subs you would buy anyway. Of course if you go for "end game" system then you probably want the best available for large room so R11, but also depending of your total budget cause you don´t want to compromise other gear too much assuming you need to buy everything right away.

Those Marantz models are overpriced and if you go processor route please forget the AV7706 Marantz! List prices for those models you mentioned: 3000$ + 2500$ + 1400$= 6900$

Consider Anthem AVM 70 and poweramp from Emotiva as Monoprice Monolith has some shipping issues. 3800$ + 2200$ + 550$ = 6550$. You get better av-processor and better poweramps for less! You should also get discount if you buy the Anthem together with Kefs so ask around from local dealers. The beefier XPA would be used for the base layer: LCR, surround l/r and surround backs, then the A4 would be used for two pairs of ceiling speakers. The XPA puts out 300w for 8ohm and 490w for 4ohm with 2channels driven, more than plenty for the R11s.

Anthem has the praised ARC Genesis room eq software which requires laptop/computer but other than that should be fairly easy to setup the basics, has also individual dual sub eq which you have to pay for Arcam AV40 (Dirac Live Bass Control) while JBL SDL-55 has it, but costs 6000$. This feature will come handy if you don´t place subwoofers equidistant from listener, you will be able to set the levels/distances (=delay) separate for each. If we look some objective measurements the engineering side of the units the Anthem comes ahead of the Arcam/JBL/Marantz. I wouldn´t put too much weight on this other than the Marantz AV7706 seems very mediocre for the price, would not buy the cheaper AV7706 processor! The way i see it the Anthem offers best value in US with all the latest features. If you dig around you will find that people are very happy how it sounds. Anthem = Made in Canada i believe.






If you have questions about the subs hit me PM. Please don´t buy anything from the hifi shop as they sell you some overpriced RELs which isn´t going to do much of anything in your massive ~33 x 19 room. You are so lucky to have products available there that we don`t have so definitely look the ID brands i linked.
 
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gtiracer

Novice Member
The R3 vs. R11 comparison was flawed. R7 and two capable subs (sent PM) for music listening should be something to consider. 3600$ vs. 4800$. The subs you would buy anyway. Of course if you go for "end game" system then you probably want the best available for large room so R11, but also depending of your total budget cause you don´t want to compromise other gear too much assuming you need to buy everything right away.

Those Marantz models are overpriced and if you go processor route please forget the AV7706 Marantz! List prices for those models you mentioned: 3000$ + 2500$ + 1400$= 6900$

Consider Anthem AVM 70 and poweramp from Emotiva as Monoprice Monolith has some shipping issues. 3800$ + 2200$ + 550$ = 6550$. You get better av-processor and better poweramps for less! You should also get discount if you buy the Anthem together with Kefs so ask around from local dealers. The beefier XPA would be used for the base layer: LCR, surround l/r and surround backs, then the A4 would be used for two pairs of ceiling speakers. The XPA puts out 300w for 8ohm and 490w for 4ohm with 2channels driven, more than plenty for the R11s.

Anthem has the praised ARC Genesis room eq software which requires laptop/computer but other than that should be fairly easy to setup the basics, has also individual dual sub eq which you have to pay for Arcam AV40 (Dirac Live Bass Control) while JBL SDL-55 has it, but costs 6000$. This feature will come handy if you don´t place subwoofers equidistant from listener, you will be able to set the levels/distances (=delay) separate for each. If we look some objective measurements the engineering side of the units the Anthem comes ahead of the Arcam/JBL/Marantz. I wouldn´t put too much weight on this other than the Marantz AV7706 seems very mediocre for the price, would not buy the cheaper AV7706 processor! The way i see it the Anthem offers best value in US with all the latest features. If you dig around you will find that people are very happy how it sounds. Anthem = Made in Canada i believe.






If you have questions about the subs hit me PM. Please don´t buy anything from the hifi shop as they sell you some overpriced RELs which isn´t going to do much of anything in your massive ~33 x 19 room. You are so lucky to have products available there that we don`t have so definitely look the ID brands i linked.
Great advice, thanks. And yes, thanks for the earlier PM, I've been looking at your aub recommendations Rhythmik and SVS P3000.
Only issue I see with the Anthem is that it only supports HDMI 2.0b. Really want some future proofing with 8K and 2.1. Even the Anthem AVM 90 is only 2.0b.
 
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gtiracer

Novice Member
The R3 vs. R11 comparison was flawed. R7 and two capable subs (sent PM) for music listening should be something to consider. 3600$ vs. 4800$. The subs you would buy anyway. Of course if you go for "end game" system then you probably want the best available for large room so R11, but also depending of your total budget cause you don´t want to compromise other gear too much assuming you need to buy everything right away.

Those Marantz models are overpriced and if you go processor route please forget the AV7706 Marantz! List prices for those models you mentioned: 3000$ + 2500$ + 1400$= 6900$

Consider Anthem AVM 70 and poweramp from Emotiva as Monoprice Monolith has some shipping issues. 3800$ + 2200$ + 550$ = 6550$. You get better av-processor and better poweramps for less! You should also get discount if you buy the Anthem together with Kefs so ask around from local dealers. The beefier XPA would be used for the base layer: LCR, surround l/r and surround backs, then the A4 would be used for two pairs of ceiling speakers. The XPA puts out 300w for 8ohm and 490w for 4ohm with 2channels driven, more than plenty for the R11s.

Anthem has the praised ARC Genesis room eq software which requires laptop/computer but other than that should be fairly easy to setup the basics, has also individual dual sub eq which you have to pay for Arcam AV40 (Dirac Live Bass Control) while JBL SDL-55 has it, but costs 6000$. This feature will come handy if you don´t place subwoofers equidistant from listener, you will be able to set the levels/distances (=delay) separate for each. If we look some objective measurements the engineering side of the units the Anthem comes ahead of the Arcam/JBL/Marantz. I wouldn´t put too much weight on this other than the Marantz AV7706 seems very mediocre for the price, would not buy the cheaper AV7706 processor! The way i see it the Anthem offers best value in US with all the latest features. If you dig around you will find that people are very happy how it sounds. Anthem = Made in Canada i believe.






If you have questions about the subs hit me PM. Please don´t buy anything from the hifi shop as they sell you some overpriced RELs which isn´t going to do much of anything in your massive ~33 x 19 room. You are so lucky to have products available there that we don`t have so definitely look the ID brands i linked.
@ShanePJ or
@ShanePJ - reading over your comment further, when you mention using on-wall for the rears, such as the Dali or KEF Qs, are you suggesting I mount those on the same side walls where the side surrounds are mounted? And that I mount the on-wall rears at roughly ear height and aim them toward MLP? Or that I could mount them up high on the cross-beam but angle them down toward MLP?

Revised diagram attached with Blue arrows indicating revised rear placement.
@ShanePJ or @Gasp3621 - per question above, can you help to clarify the best place to mount my rear surrounds given the updated diagram above? Finishing my measurements today and spray painting the floor to mark all spots where I'll be running wire.

Also @Gasp3621 have you heard anything on timing/cost for the Anthem AVM70 tonsuppoet hdmi 2.1?

Thanks again
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
Great advice, thanks. And yes, thanks for the earlier PM, I've been looking at your aub recommendations Rhythmik and SVS P3000.
Only issue I see with the Anthem is that it only supports HDMI 2.0b. Really want some future proofing with 8K and 2.1. Even the Anthem AVM 90 is only 2.0b.

You can buy the new hdmi board later when you need it or are you buying new gaming consoles? If you have tv with hdmi 2.1 you can connect the console straight to tv and with eARC get the sound from Anthem. 8K is so far away that you shouldn`t really worry otherwise.

"HDMI v2.1 8K Upgradeable."



Notice the Marantz has only one 8K input so it´s not really worth it either and the unit isn`t as good as Anthem. Emotiva poweramps are better as those MM models and comes with 5year warranty what i remember.

I let @ShanePJ comment on the surround speakers as you are already talking it.

PB3000 is surely great option and as you live in US you have 45-day home trial with free shipping and free returns, plus the upgrade program and few other ones which they don´t offer to EU/UK customers. The price for duals is also bit cheaper.
 

gtiracer

Novice Member
Another question: after measuring, my left side surround is (after accounting for speaker depth) 74" from MLP. Because I have a hallway on the right side, the right side surround will be about 4.5' further away than the left side surround. I'm using 70 degrees from MLP (slightly shifted forward). As you can imagine, after doing this, my left side surround and right side surround aren't directly across from each other. What is more important? Maintaining the purity of angle to MLP for both side surrounds (which means that the right side surround will be further forward than the left side surround) or ensuring that the side surrounds are facing each other?
 

gtiracer

Novice Member
You can buy the new hdmi board later when you need it or are you buying new gaming consoles? If you have tv with hdmi 2.1 you can connect the console straight to tv and with eARC get the sound from Anthem. 8K is so far away that you shouldn`t really worry otherwise.

"HDMI v2.1 8K Upgradeable."



Notice the Marantz has only one 8K input so it´s not really worth it either and the unit isn`t as good as Anthem. Emotiva poweramps are better as those MM models and comes with 5year warranty what i remember.

I let @ShanePJ comment on the surround speakers as you are already talking it.

PB3000 is surely great option and as you live in US you have 45-day home trial with free shipping and free returns, plus the upgrade program and few other ones which they don´t offer to EU/UK customers. The price for duals is also bit cheaper.
I have a PS5 and was hoping to keep everything in the unfinished part of the basement to keep the install nice and tidy. Has Anthem communicated how much the board upgrade will cost and if they cover shipping and return shipping? Seems like a terrible idea to lose access to your pre-amp for what I assume is at least 1 week, along with the inherent risk in damage from shipping it for upgrade and then return shipping.
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
I have a PS5 and was hoping to keep everything in the unfinished part of the basement to keep the install nice and tidy. Has Anthem communicated how much the board upgrade will cost and if they cover shipping and return shipping? Seems like a terrible idea to lose access to your pre-amp for what I assume is at least 1 week, along with the inherent risk in damage from shipping it for upgrade and then return shipping.

I don`t think there is yet any prices out and the upgrade is likely coming closer to summer what i found mentioned. Perhaps you would keep the PS5 in different spot close to tv for the time being and later purchase the updated 2.1 board. You could also ask your Anthem dealer is it possible that you bring the unit to dealer and they swap it there, i think that was possible for X brand. Forgot which.

Arcam just introduced new models with hdmi 2.1 (AV41), however they come also close to summer in US and the price is eye watering as you still need to add the amps.

The on going model (AV40) have hdmi 2.0b too and offer board upgrade. End of January availability, $650 + tax including collection, service and return.

Marantz AV8805A would be equal to AVM70, however i have found people comparing these and still prefering the latter which is also lot cheaper in US. This also seem to use the old HDAM version as the new one can be found on their av-receiver SR8015. You are paying big bucks for:
  • 1 input and 2 outputs support 8K/60Hz and 4K/120Hz video

As i mentioned the SR8015 has the latest version of HDAM and it is shown to measure better than the 8805A. Is this important then is up to person, but this model also has Pre-amp mode so it disconnects the internal amps for best performance as you would be using the Emotiva poweramps for example with this. But again is it wise just to get those 1+2 hdmi connections, i wouldn´t speak much of future proof with this either?!
Amazon product


Perhaps if you could wait until summer as there is some talk that Anthem would also start selling the models straight with the new hdmi 2.1 board included. I haven´t found confirmation for this though so you can ask around.


Edit. @Quorra lives in US and own the Anthem, do you know the price for Anthem hdmi 2.1 upgrade, has they said anything?
 

ShanePJ

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
@ShanePJ - reading over your comment further, when you mention using on-wall for the rears, such as the Dali or KEF Qs, are you suggesting I mount those on the same side walls where the side surrounds are mounted? And that I mount the on-wall rears at roughly ear height and aim them toward MLP? Or that I could mount them up high on the cross-beam but angle them down toward MLP?

Revised diagram attached with Blue arrows indicating revised rear placement.
The R3's or Q150's for rears would be fine if you want to use bookshelfs as rears. Ideally you need to place them on stands and I would suggest using a taller 600mm or 750mm stands as these would be a better option to elevate over the rear seating area

The on-wall option from what I mentioned regarding the Dali's would, I feel give you a better setup as they are more discrete (in the location you have marked out) yet will still create everything you want to hear from them. If you do want to use the Kef bookshelfs, then the location will need to be more in line with the fronts for placement along the rear wall with them slightly toed into the MLP, but only lightly and not 100% pointing. So about 15% in that general direction with about a foot away from the rear wall.

One thing about having the speakers in the corners though is it will increase the boom effect which if you do use something like an Anthem or an Arcam, you should be able to iron this out to a very large degree. If you find you still hear it, just move the speakers away from the side wall too and re run the room eq

Hope that helps :)
 

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