New Epson 4k Lasers

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
You have to be clear what you mean by DTM. Dynamic Tone Mapping is only possible with Dolby Vision or HDR10+ and the content needs to be mastered with DV or HDR10+, which means the content has pre-encoded meta-data in the DV or HDR10+ layer to tell the video processor in the display how to display each frame or scene of video content, in correct context of the display capabilities. This therefore does not need powerful video processing chips in the display. True DTM is applied to ’any’ HDR content. and it does it by pre-analysing each frame or scene and adapting the picture presentation on the fly or dynamically. To do this you need very powerful video processing. You say TV manufacturers are doing it. I don’t believe they are. This is why Lumagen and MadVR are heralded in this regard. In the case of JVC they were already using an FPGA for their video processing, so we’re able to add DTM, due to the nature of how FPGAs can be programmed. If manufacturers are using OEM or custom video processing chipsets. It is likely they may only actually cost lower than $100 at volume. To add processing for proper DTM may run to $1,000 or more. plus the added complexity in R&D because unlike JVC their existing video processing is handled via a different framework/design.


I thought LG OLEDs for example have engaged dynamic tone mapping?


Most TVs seem to hide their DTM under a different label. I think Sony do this? Or they just apply it without users being able to turn it off.

I remember all 4 of my OLEDs having that setting. Brightened what was a bit dim and added some punch to the image. Always reminded me of a MADVR with the DPL and DTM set a bit on the high side. Not to say the DTM was very good, but it wasn't terrible either.

I think we're confusing tone mapping with static and non-static metadata. We can still dynamically tone map, as you said, by analysis of source on a frame by frame basis taking into account display capability with static metadata. In truth, we NEED this on any projector worth its weight in gold. Otherwise we're stuck with an arbitrary static curve applied to a variation of different content not taking into account the capabilities of the devices. ITs really bad in video games where the mastered nit numbers are just stupid (mostly games developed at the start of the introduction to HDR).

I'm pretty sure this day in age, any mid-range to high-end display device should be packing DTM. It doesn't have to be high end DTM offered via MADVR or a Lumagen but a basic 'enter display peak luminance' here would be a start; or they could just have the user put in the gain of their screen, the image size they're projecting and Epson have an algorithm which decides what would be the approximate nit target.

A bit like the 3D depth slider they have on their projectors at the moment.

Epson have had 3 years of watching and waiting to see what JVC have offered. IF they don't offer a comparable but inferior solution, they're clearly just not bothered. They're aware of the limitations of HDR on a projector which is why they offered 2 different HDR curves on their Epson 9300 and an entire HDR slider on the 9400.
 
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CaroleBaskin

Well-known Member
am betting that is what it is ... pop a laser in and you get to charge twice what can now ..based on the sony jvc experience :D

if the 9400 is 3 something for your guys now ...expect the 6 something price projected...

anything else will be a bonus...
What was it in the French article? €4K? So yeah you’re probably bang on the money for the UK at 6 😂

Im not in the market for what’s on offer with these machines, but my dreams are still dimly lit, at least until next week…
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
in my opinion, Epson does not want to compete with the JVC market .. I want to shoot between $ 3000 and $ 5000
so some compromises will be ..
LG HU810 made a lot of noise .. I think that Epson wants to shoot between expensive 4K DLP and cheap LCOS
But we'll see .. This is just my opinion. Friends :)


I think so too. If they've ditched 3D, its clear to me they're just trying to put the nail in the coffin to the LG & Samsung and probably not paying much thought to JVC & Sony who are now the clear top tier performers if thats the case.
 

scrowe

Distinguished Member
I thought LG OLEDs for example have engaged dynamic tone mapping?


I remember all 4 of my OLEDs having that setting. Brightened what was a bit dim and added some punch to the image. Always reminded me of a MADVR with the DPL and DTM set a bit on the high side. Not to say the DTM was very good, but it wasn't terrible either.

I'm pretty sure this day in age, any mid-range to high-end display device should be packing DTM. It doesn't have to be high end DTM offered via MADVR or a Lumagen but a basic 'enter display peak luminance' here would be a start; or they could just have the user put in the gain of their screen, the image size they're projecting and Epson have an algorithm which decides what would be the approximate nit target.
This seems fair analysis below. Nothing like DTM as executed by Lumagen, MadVR and JVC. Much more like the custom curves JVC users were using via JVCs calibration software, before DTM came along.

 

Russ 66

Distinguished Member
Looking at the leaked stuff it definitely seems to be an LCD projector with a laser light source. To keep costs down it’s probably shifting like the 9400 to get 4K. I am not sure if the 9400 lens could fully resolve 4K anyway. The lens is a massive cost in any projector.
Start adding up a better lens, DTM hardware/R&D, true 4K high contrast panels and a laser light source, you are adding a lot of cost.
A successor to the LS10500 would have been great. I still don’t know why they didn’t carry on that line, several people on here picked one over the X7900 after a direct comparison.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
This seems fair analysis below. Nothing like DTM as executed by Lumagen, MadVR and JVC. Much more like the custom curves JVC users were using via JVCs calibration software, before DTM came along.


Yup. Epson have done the custom curves before, on the 9300 and the 9400 via the slider. TVs can get away with less advanced DTM methods and even static curves; I think projectors sadly can't.

I think the sad reality of projection is projectors need DTM far more than TVs. TVs can get pretty close to a HDR mastering monitor but due to a projector likely getting no where near close to 1000nits for some mastered content, some form of tone mapping is simply needed and JVC obviously saw this and prioritised development of their DTM solution and ecosystem.

Even Epson saw this 3 years ago with the 9400, hence the HDR slider and with the 9300, hence the multiple curves on offer via the settings dynamic range output option. Its a dodgy solution which doesn't optimise on a scene by scene basis but its nice to see they saw there was an issue from the 9300 which need to be resolved.

Hopefully we seem some evolution of this. If not, then the N5 looks like an attractive proposition to someone in the £5k price range despite it being 3 years old.

Epson have had time to do their homework and come up with solutions. If they haven't, fair enough. Can't really blame them too much as Sony have products 5x-7x the price of the Epson's which doesn't offer DTM too.
 

GrazzaB

Distinguished Member
If the photos of case are true and the description is correct, there is no need to count on the successor of the LS10500 ..
LS12000 is a 100% successor of the TW9400 with a 1080p x4 shifting laser and DTM at the price of $ 4000
If it was to be the successor of the LS10500, it would rather talk about a much higher price and a different case
I think you are right here, the case size looks exactly like the TW range doesn’t it. My LS10000 was massive!
 

GrazzaB

Distinguished Member
Looking at the leaked stuff it definitely seems to be an LCD projector with a laser light source. To keep costs down it’s probably shifting like the 9400 to get 4K. I am not sure if the 9400 lens could fully resolve 4K anyway. The lens is a massive cost in any projector.
Start adding up a better lens, DTM hardware/R&D, true 4K high contrast panels and a laser light source, you are adding a lot of cost.
A successor to the LS10500 would have been great. I still don’t know why they didn’t carry on that line, several people on here picked one over the X7900 after a direct comparison.
Exactly, and with a brighter lumen output I’d have gone for the successor to the LS10500 rather than the NX5 I imagine
 

CaroleBaskin

Well-known Member
Looking at the leaked stuff it definitely seems to be an LCD projector with a laser light source. To keep costs down it’s probably shifting like the 9400 to get 4K. I am not sure if the 9400 lens could fully resolve 4K anyway. The lens is a massive cost in any projector.
Start adding up a better lens, DTM hardware/R&D, true 4K high contrast panels and a laser light source, you are adding a lot of cost.
A successor to the LS10500 would have been great. I still don’t know why they didn’t carry on that line, several people on here picked one over the X7900 after a direct comparison.
I really wouldn’t have minded the extra cost for those specs, if Epson could do it in their typical fashion at coming in below the competition. Great I guess for would be 9400 purchasers or those moving on from the 9300.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Looking at the leaked stuff it definitely seems to be an LCD projector with a laser light source. To keep costs down it’s probably shifting like the 9400 to get 4K. I am not sure if the 9400 lens could fully resolve 4K anyway. The lens is a massive cost in any projector.
Start adding up a better lens, DTM hardware/R&D, true 4K high contrast panels and a laser light source, you are adding a lot of cost.
A successor to the LS10500 would have been great. I still don’t know why they didn’t carry on that line, several people on here picked one over the X7900 after a direct comparison.


If they don't, its fine.

We're probably all hoping for too much anyway from Epson. Their market has historically been the £0-£3k range.

I think a lot of us are just in quiet hope they do compete with JVC because JVC have moved to a different pricing stratosphere outside of our initial budgets alongside a UK based markup which leaves a lot of us in a difficult situation if we were planning to upgrade to JVC this year.

Those with big screens and needing higher lumen outputs might be a bit stuck going for the N5/N7 too incase its not packing the lumens needed too, where Epson would have been our saviour lol.
 

scrowe

Distinguished Member
I still don’t know why they didn’t carry on that line,
I remember speculation it was a bit of a loss-leader to test the marketplace at that level. As Epson are probably the biggest PJ manufacturer globally in the professional/business sector, they could afford to experiment for a few years.
 

Furnace Inferno

Well-known Member
So you think it's a successor to the 9400, with a laser added and a few other bits. What do you think the advantage is for Epson to progress the 9400 with a laser, rather than progress the LS10500?
Cheaper to manufacture and higher profit, less competition in its price bracket, higher volume item, the list goes on and on, if Epson had any real interest in the higher end consumer market we would have seen it by now and last I heard they were considering dropping out completely so the fact we have anything at all is a positive.

Ultimately the LS line was an experiment for them in bringing their reflective tech to market as it was something they had been working on for years and eventually turned up in a laser package having originally been shown with a bulb. I suspect they wanted to recoup the R&D costs, saw the numbers they were selling and realised they weren’t competing with JVC in any market so dropped out not getting much love on the forums despite what they offered. The LS10500 wasn’t manufactured for particularly long, around 2 years I remember rightly and essentially replaced with the TW9400.

I was hopeful but realistically I don’t think they are all that interested but again maybe we’ll be surprised.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
I remember speculation it was a bit of a loss-leader to test the marketplace at that level. As Epson are probably the biggest PJ manufacturer globally in the professional/business sector, they could afford to experiment for a few years.


With JVC and Sony deciding to concentrate on the £10k+ price bracket, left a nice opportunity for Epson to experiment with little competition other than the N5.

If they don't, feels like a missed opportunity for Epson but maybe they didn't know what the two big boys were going to do.
 

CaroleBaskin

Well-known Member
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kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Cheaper to manufacture and higher profit, less competition in its price bracket, higher volume item, the list goes on and on, if Epson had any real interest in the higher end consumer market we would have seen it by now and last I heard they were considering dropping out completely so the fact we have anything at all is a positive.

Ultimately the LS line was an experiment for them in bringing their reflective tech to market as it was something they had been working on for years and eventually turned up in a laser package having originally been shown with a bulb. I suspect they wanted to recoup the R&D costs, saw the numbers they were selling and realised they weren’t competing with JVC in any market so dropped out not getting much love on the forums despite what they offered. The LS10500 wasn’t manufactured for particularly long, around 2 years I remember rightly and essentially replaced with the TW9400.

I was hopeful but realistically I don’t think they are all that interested but again maybe we’ll be surprised.


Sadly I think you're right. People hype up the 9400 a lot, but having owned the 9300 and 9400; the differences are minute (HDR slider and an 18gbps chipset that should have been there).

Compare the differences between the JVC X7900 and the N7, and they're documented by many users and on paper as being massive (namely chassis design, DTM, native 4K lens, better software). JVC going the NZ range, despite its price hike we're all upset about, have increased the lumen output to an entirely new generation of uncalibrated performance they haven't offered before, added a lazer and HDMI 2.1 120hz; those are gigantic leaps when you're already the best in class.

JVC seem to be, credit to them, making exponential improvements whilst Epson are still following the business model of slow iterations to their products like JVC used to with the X7000, X7500, X7900.

Epson are in the type of company which seem to want to keep things ticking and tocking with minimal changes but maximum profits and reliability in those profits.

Throw in a cheap laser, offer a bulb based variant, tout increased contrast but really have it all down to the laser on/off based contrast rather than real contrast of the panel, cut 3D, keep the same chassis design to minimise costs and performance gains and they're onto a winner really. Change the software and menus, offer a cheap tone mapping solution which isn't dynamic but offers a bit better HDR curve options.
 

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
What if you have the option of the N5 at £6500 or £5500?

Pros: Better motion, Better contrast, native 4K lens, probably better DTM, 3D.
Cons: Non laser, less lumen output, worse warranty + support

Not sure what the price an N5 usually goes for with some negotiation but if the N5 is touching £5k.. its a difficult decision. Its what I'm weighing up at the moment. An N5 (or outgoing N7) in high lamp mode vs the upcoming Epson laser if the prices are similar.
Think about it, after the NX5 the next JVC is £11.5k so what incentive has dealers got by discounting the model which will be the bulk of their sales and any discount offered will lessen the chance that someone will upgrade to the NZ. I reckon discounts on the NX5 will dry up completely.
I'd rather Epson price a bit higher but tackle the contrast & native 4K issue to at least try to match the N5 feature for feature. We all seem to be forgetting its still exists and people can ignore the NZ7 and subsequent lasers with JVCs potential last bulb offerings.
I agree, the idea of a proper native 4K with some form of DTM is far more appealing but all our assumptions are based on the knowledge we have of the current chip in the 9400, we don’t know if this is a completely new chip either 1080P or native 4K. If it were closer in design to the LS10500 chip then it’s likely to have better native contrast to that of the 9400 and closer pixel gap too.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Think about it, after the NX5 the next JVC is £11.5k so what incentive has dealers got by discounting the model which will be the bulk of their sales and any discount offered will lessen the chance that someone will upgrade to the NZ. I reckon discounts on the NX5 will dry up completely.

I agree, the idea of a proper native 4K with some form of DTM is far more appealing but all our assumptions are based on the knowledge we have of the current chip in the 9400, we don’t know if this is a completely new chip either 1080P or native 4K. If it were closer in design to the LS10500 chip then it’s likely to have better native contrast to that of the 9400 and closer pixel gap too.

I agree with you.

However I think a lot of buyers will likely not want to go for the N5 due to its age, and instead wait for one to pop up second hand. Thats my own gut feeling anyway mate as a prospective buyer. I hate buying old technology, regardless of how good it is, because we all know technology should get cheaper as it gets older. I hate buying near the end of a product cycle.

TBH I've lost enthusiasm for this Epson PJ. Same chassis design, no 3D, 9400-level performance but with a laser and still not native 4K. If they top it off with a price-hike, its going to suck. Also no hint of HDMI 2.1 so probably another blow.
 

CaroleBaskin

Well-known Member
Speaking of current chip in the 9400.. didn’t Epson pull a JVC and give a freebie in firmware. 4 way shifting or something like that? I owned one a few years ago so haven’t seen it lately with the super duper shift. Is it tangibly better?
 

scrowe

Distinguished Member
With JVC and Sony deciding to concentrate on the £10k+ price bracket, left a nice opportunity for Epson to experiment with little competition other than the N5.

If they don't, feels like a missed opportunity for Epson but maybe they didn't know what the two big boys were going to do.
Rule of thumb seems to be :-

Sony - Owning the mid-to-high-end consumer PJ market with competent hardware but lazy innovation, trading equally on brand recognition.
JVC - The consumer hero- leading on quality and innovation, and bang-for-buck, but ultimately still struggling to leap in market-share and profitability in the sector.
Epson - Own the entry-level Home Cinema level, and business, well on the sidelines of mid-to-high range in the sector

It looks like JVC strategically have decided to attack the next level, high-end consumer. the Apple approach. still consumer hero, but premium price, high margin, where lower sales higher prices means better profits.

As you say. it really gives an opportunity to Epson at mid-level if they choose to.
 

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
I agree with you.

However I think a lot of buyers will likely not want to go for the N5 due to its age, and instead wait for one to pop up second hand. Thats my own gut feeling anyway mate as a prospective buyer. I hate buying old technology, regardless of how good it is, because we all know technology should get cheaper as it gets older. I hate buying near the end of a product cycle.
I’m always nervous buying anything without a warranty, what is why buying an Epson with their 5yr warranty offer much more appealing.
TBH I've lost enthusiasm for this Epson PJ. Same chassis design, no 3D, 9400-level performance but with a laser and still not native 4K. If they top it off with a price-hike, its going to suck. Also no hint of HDMI 2.1 so probably another blow.
Chassis design is not something that concerns me, but most of your negativity is groundless at the moment because you don’t know the technology used. Epson lead with the LS10000 as the first consumer laser PJ, I’m not expecting the same but I wouldn’t just dismiss every possibility based on what they have done over the period since the LS range.

Epson chose to command the middle ground since the LS and they have done this convincingly so why rock the boat producing a LS with 4K when JVC already occupied the market price you would need to sell it in, now they have basically left this market point there’s everything to gain from Epson’s perspective IMO.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
I’m always nervous buying anything without a warranty, what is why buying an Epson with their 5yr warranty offer much more appealing.

Chassis design is not something that concerns me, but most of your negativity is groundless at the moment because you don’t know the technology used. Epson lead with the LS10000 as the first consumer laser PJ, I’m not expecting the same but I wouldn’t just dismiss every possibility based on what they have done over the period since the LS range.

Epson chose to command the middle ground since the LS and they have done this convincingly so why rock the boat producing a LS with 4K when JVC already occupied the market price you would need to sell it in, now they have basically left this market point there’s everything to gain from Epson’s perspective IMO.


I agree. I've kind of thought I should give the forum a rest until Wednesday as I've gone into needlessly speculating. Hopefully Epson deliver something awesome. Regardless, I'm stuffed. I'll try to get a JVC N7 demo but my gut feeling is high lamp mode might either be too dim or too loud for my room; in which case the high lumen Epson's come back into play with their insane warranty as you mentioned.

The only reason chassis design concerned me is I always associate a chassis design with 'we are doing something so big and different to before, we needed more space so re-designed' whilst fitting into the same chassis I associate with incremental upgrade.
 

IWC Dopplel

Distinguished Member
Darn.... looks like the excitement is over :(
 

Thatsnotmynaim

Distinguished Member
FWIW when I built my first MadVR PC I could get it to do basic frame-by-frame 4k DTM on a very basic nvidia 1060 card without dropping frames, the card cost me about £120 from Amazon at the time, maybe as the 20xx cards were out, but hey it didn’t need loads of porocessing to do frame analysis and DTM based on it. Yes you can do much more fancy video processing, but basic DTM, ie turning the slider up and down automatically based on frame luminance (or whatever it uses) is simple to process and do now we’ve learnt the basics.. As I said my Panny OLED also defiantly does it and I don’t think has particularly amazing processing power to do it as the TV was under £1k, so the processing chips I’d finger in the air guess are 10-20% of that at max..
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Rule of thumb seems to be :-

Sony - Owning the mid-to-high-end consumer PJ market with competent hardware but lazy innovation, trading equally on brand recognition.
JVC - The consumer hero- leading on quality and innovation, and bang-for-buck, but ultimately still struggling to leap in market-share and profitability in the sector.
Epson - Own the entry-level Home Cinema level, and business, well on the sidelines of mid-to-high range in the sector

It looks like JVC strategically have decided to attack the next level, high-end consumer. the Apple approach. still consumer hero, but premium price, high margin, where lower sales higher prices means better profits.

As you say. it really gives an opportunity to Epson at mid-level if they choose to.


Yup 100% agree with everything you've said.

Sony fall back on their brand recognition, far superior motion and picture processing to always win the day in the TV market and they seem to be doing the same with projectors. They do things in their own time.

JVC - again, I agree. Sad to see them slowly move into the higher end of the market and leave us mere mortals with the £10k RRP for their next gen of products but I assume its all down to the fact they can't afford or don't see a future with their bulb based range so would rather pull all focus and resources towards the lasers for the mean time; then bring down prices in the next 3-6 years.

All your thoughts pretty much echo mine.

I think JVC have pulled a mixture of Apple and NVIDIA IMO. They've seen blood, and they're maximising profits and trying to leave the competition in the dust (if they didn't already with the N5/N7).
 

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