New Epson 4k Lasers

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
I think they can expose a lot of things that take more time and extensive use to expose that reviewers typically don't because of the short time they spend with the product, so yes the quirks and degradation you refer to. QOL type things are high up there that often don't get discussed in pro reviews, like the insane amount of time an NX projector takes to handshake an HDMI signal that I don't recall getting much attention in professional reviews until I read the NZ ones talking about it being a big step up in that regard. I hop sources and resolutions so much that would be a pretty big roadblock for me, so it's nice to know heading in. The premium I paid for my NZ over the NX might be worth it for that alone lol. But definitely a grain of salt is required in many cases.

Professional reviews are tricky. There are a lot of reputable ones out there and then there are the type we've seen for the new Epson's where they're mostly bullocks being used in poor environments with so many important aspects left not being paid attention to and discussed, like tone mapping in this new line. The one thing I was most interested was Tone Mapping (I'm confident that applies to many others) and that was barely even touched on if at all on these youtube "reviews". The nature of reviewing products has really gone downhill with so much of it being nothing more than veiled promotions.

There's also the objective to subjective matter. I'm interested in some quality audio products, but if I believed AudioScienceReview on everything they measure, I'd be making all my decisions based on measurements that are usually inaudible. So much of what you hear is subjective and I'm sure that applies to what we see in the projector world as well, albeit much less so.

I've been checking them out. What are you seeing? Better or worse than pro reviews?

I find it amazing how reading through the owner threads gives me NZ8/9 envy even though I feel incredibly fortunate to be able to afford an NZ7. There's always something better.
NZ reviews on AVS seem fair and critical.

Some are stating the laser is annoying and not refined dimming wise, the bright corners are still an issue on high/medium laser. However they are much much much better than the NX's bright corner issues and the NX's dynamic iris (or lack of movement) issue. So basically, an absolute improvement.

So overall a very fair assessment of improvements made whilst still being critical. Really just what you'd expect of enthusiasts who have paid their own money but are past or no longer have honeymoon periods with their gear which seems to be AVS.

I think you got an incredible machine. If I could find one for the price I'm willing to pay (I'd like to start negotiations and pretend RRP is £10,000), I'd be all over one.
 

djej

Standard Member
What's the definition of DTM? Only what JVC does because they came out with it first?

I still maintain that dynamic gamma which results in the luminance of each pixel being updated every frame as content in the scene changes (whether the dynamic gamma curve changes every frame or not) in a generic sense is DTM. Just because it's not the same exact algorithm as JVC doesn't mean it's not DTM as long as the end results are similar as has been reported when an LS12000 has been directly compared to an NZ7.

There may be corner cases with some content that look better with one algorithm vs the other, but we don't know at this point which one will have fewer issues.
I totally agree. Everyone makes such a big deal about JVC and DTM. I think of it as a complement that Epson is probably doing the same thing, and call it whatever they want to call it. I really don't care who did DTM first, but I've only heard the phrase in reference to JVC projectors, so it's easy to make a comparison of what a projector is doing when one says "it's like dynamic tone mapping". It gets the point across.

I'm looking forward to the 12000, and owning it.
 
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djej

Standard Member
Thank you, but I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be reacting to. I've seen that post and it goes along what I said (I believe). I said the JVC would probably beat the Epson in the lowest of ADL scenes; given native contrast performance, that's just physics. Anything above 5% is another story.
 
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kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
I totally agree. Everyone makes such a big deal about JVC and DTM. I think of it as a complement that Epson is probably doing the same thing, and call it whatever they want to call it. I really don't care who did DTM first, but I've only heard the phrase in reference to JVC projectors, so it's easy to make a comparison of what a projector is doing when one says "it's like dynamic tone mapping". It gets the point across.

I'm looking forward to the 12000, and owning it.
It's been around before JVC did it. TVs did it and called it dynamic tone mapping, so did Lumagen, so did MADVR.
 

Thatsnotmynaim

Distinguished Member
Anything that can’t display 10,000 nits has to tone map, anything that does it once per film based on metadata is static anything that does it scene by scene or frame by frame based on analysing the brightness of the scene or frame it dynamic. DTM is a pretty standard thing, it does what it says on the tin, if it doesn’t say DTM then it probably isn’t DTM.
 

CaroleBaskin

Distinguished Member
Scene adaptive gamma sounds fancy :)

Is the lack of DTM wording in advertising an attempt at differentiation by Epson, or a cautious, calculated wording to avoid calling it something it isn’t?

You’d think they’d be happy calling it a duck.
 

djej

Standard Member
It's been around before JVC did it. TVs did it and called it dynamic tone mapping, so did Lumagen, so did MADVR.
Right on. I stay on the projector forums, so for me personally JVC was the first time I've heard of it and started to understand what is was.
Scene adaptive gamma sounds fancy :)

Is the lack of DTM wording in advertising an attempt at differentiation by Epson, or a cautious, calculated wording to avoid calling it something it isn’t?

You’d think they’d be happy calling it a duck.
My thoughts exactly. I just want the thing to get released to the public so we can enjoy it.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Scene adaptive gamma sounds fancy :)

Is the lack of DTM wording in advertising an attempt at differentiation by Epson, or a cautious, calculated wording to avoid calling it something it isn’t?

You’d think they’d be happy calling it a duck.
It could just be dynamic contrast like on LCD TVs where they make the picture look ‘nicer’ but not very scientifically
 

Thatsnotmynaim

Distinguished Member
Right on. I stay on the projector forums, so for me personally JVC was the first time I've heard of it and started to understand what is was.

My thoughts exactly. I just want the thing to get released to the public so we can enjoy it.
Right but being on the PJ forum you’ve heard of Lumagen and MadVR yes?

MadVR on a PC allows you to experience and see what fpf DTM is for free and what it really is capable of. Most OLED TVs which are a bit nits starved compared to LCD have had DTM for ages and much cleverer than JVCs, they just don’t shout about it as it’s chucked in for free on the £999 TVs, they also have Dolby Vision.
 

markymiles

Distinguished Member
Just trying to decide in my head if it's worth an "upgrade" from my 9400:

Pros
Laser - no bulb costs (for a long time)
Some form of HDR mapping/improvement
Improved 4k enhancement, closer to true 4k
4k 120hz
FI on 4k material, not sure if motion is better to start with too
Same dimensions and zoom, so maximise screen size
Quiet, no eco bulb flickering

Cons
No manual/dynamic iris so min brightness could be on the high side
No native contrast increase

Have I missed anything? Seems to me it's worth a go. I can just paint my screen a suitable shade of grey again for now to tame the brightness then look to buy a grey screen later.

Finally this is how it is now too, no guarantees but Epson do typically do a couple of firmware upgrades in the life cycle to improve things further.
 

CaroleBaskin

Distinguished Member
It’s too small a gain and a step back on the iris and 3D front vs the 9400 to me. Nearly paying double the RRP of a 9400 for it doesn’t seem like a great move, but we all have different ideas on what is worth the money.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Just trying to decide in my head if it's worth an "upgrade" from my 9400:

Pros
Laser - no bulb costs (for a long time)
Some form of HDR mapping/improvement
Improved 4k enhancement, closer to true 4k
4k 120hz
FI on 4k material, not sure if motion is better to start with too
Same dimensions and zoom, so maximise screen size
Quiet, no eco bulb flickering

Cons
No manual/dynamic iris so min brightness could be on the high side
No native contrast increase

Have I missed anything? Seems to me it's worth a go. I can just paint my screen a suitable shade of grey again for now to tame the brightness then look to buy a grey screen later.

Finally this is how it is now too, no guarantees but Epson do typically do a couple of firmware upgrades in the life cycle to improve things further.

Pros
Laser stability, less calibrations
Better eshift re: stability
Laser dimming for fade to black and dark scenes
Adapative gamma setting should make HDR look nicer
Competitive price for a laser
FI in 4K (epson's FI is the worst I've ever seen unless they've dramatically improved it)
HDMI 120hz

Cons
No iris to clamp down and maximise contrast
No 3D
No access to renewable source of light - aka the epson bulbs are cheap as chips so at any point, you can just bang in a new one for like £99

Meh +/- I wish they could have done a bit more
No upgrade in resolution - still e shift
No VRR
No EARC
Same contrast
Same/similar black floor outside of fade to black
People have said noise on high laser is still a bit like a jet engine



From a 9400, I think you'll get the initial new toy syndrome of being very happy with your purchase before critically analysing it and seeing that you are missing a fairbit. The adaptive gamma will probably make quality of life easier if you use streaming apps so thats something to think about. but if its not DTM, why not just get a HD vertex and configure it to do a similar thing re: curves or MADVR if playing local content or save up money and wait for a cut-price lumagen.

I'm probably wrong in a few parameters but without them in customers hands, we're really tied to the limited user feedback we've got back, impressions from retailers (who I wish had asked Epson point blank is this DTM or not and why did u remove 3D and why did you ditch the LS10500 high contrast tech) and 'first impressions' by youtube channels.
 

markymiles

Distinguished Member
Yeah 3D for me is no issue as I don't like it at all, so no loss there. VRR/EARC would be nice I guess but no one else has these features too and I don't game much.

MADVR/Lumagen also not going to work for me for cost or streaming reasons.

So this seems the best all round solution at this end of the market for my needs. Will try and get a demo at some point ideally with a 9400 side by side to see the improvements with my eyes. Be nice to have something new and with a nice long guarantee.

Certainly the few people that have seen them in the flesh have been impressed, which is encouraging.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Yeah 3D for me is no issue as I don't like it at all, so no loss there. VRR/EARC would be nice I guess but no one else has these features too and I don't game much.

MADVR/Lumagen also not going to work for me for cost or streaming reasons.

So this seems the best all round solution at this end of the market for my needs. Will try and get a demo at some point ideally with a 9400 side by side to see the improvements with my eyes. Be nice to have something new and with a nice long guarantee.

Certainly the few people that have seen them in the flesh have been impressed, which is encouraging.
Haha you have upgraditis. Its going around this year. Go for it mate, I'm sure you will love it. I'd personally be looking for an improvement to the blacks and contrast coming from a 9300/9400 as I felt they were its clear achilles heel and I personally am always pretty satisfied with the sharpness and brightness of the 9300 and 9400 series, as in really satisfied. Maybe videogames take a bit of a hit, but thats about it.

I think the Epson's generally are a showroom projector. They will be impressive in a showroom, no doubt about it, just like how a QLED manages to grab attention from OLEDs in Currys. I'd rather see it in a blindshootout with enthusiasts TBH.

What are you specifically dissatisfied with that you want to upgrade? By the sounds of things, it's the DTM?
 

markymiles

Distinguished Member
What are you specifically dissatisfied with that you want to upgrade? By the sounds of things, it's the DTM?

Pretty much, that's one of the main things. I am hoping it's pretty good in practice, then all my sources will benefit and I might enjoy HDR more.

Also the few screen shots of the new e-shift look very good too. Certainly the ones with "the quick brown fox" text which looked almost as good as true 4k.

And yes I have had this for 3 years, so fancy a change. Nothing else out there that fits my needs re screen size, I am not willing to sacrifice size for better blacks.

Oh and it's got a laser hahaha
 
On Sunday we will have an LS12000 compete in my black cave against my N5 on 133". In particular, also testing DTM, which looked very good during the 2 dealer visits to the Epson VS NZ7.

Since a few of the comments me and the JVC comparison for ridiculous, I will not continue to report here. Why should I do my work? If you are still more interested in practical reports than in comments from your desk chair, you can have a look here or other German forums.

good bye
 

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
On Sunday we will have an LS12000 compete in my black cave against my N5 on 133". In particular, also testing DTM, which looked very good during the 2 dealer visits to the Epson VS NZ7.

Since a few of the comments me and the JVC comparison for ridiculous, I will not continue to report here. Why should I do my work? If you are still more interested in practical reports than in comments from your desk chair, you can have a look here or other German forums.

good bye
I would rather you did report your findings on here, like you I have the N5 so it would be interesting to see how it compared. I definitely noticed a significant improvement with HDR when I made the switch from the 9400 so if the new LS12000 has something similar I think all here would like to know.

Plus your link to the German site will get lost as more and more posts on here.
 

oaklandraiders

Well-known Member
On Sunday we will have an LS12000 compete in my black cave against my N5 on 133". In particular, also testing DTM, which looked very good during the 2 dealer visits to the Epson VS NZ7.

Since a few of the comments me and the JVC comparison for ridiculous, I will not continue to report here. Why should I do my work? If you are still more interested in practical reports than in comments from your desk chair, you can have a look here or other German forums.

good bye
I'd like to hear what you think
 

Topmetom 2

Distinguished Member
On Sunday we will have an LS12000 compete in my black cave against my N5 on 133". In particular, also testing DTM, which looked very good during the 2 dealer visits to the Epson VS NZ7.

Since a few of the comments me and the JVC comparison for ridiculous, I will not continue to report here. Why should I do my work? If you are still more interested in practical reports than in comments from your desk chair, you can have a look here or other German forums.

good bye
Shame it would make interesting reading.
 

darrellh44

Active Member
On Sunday we will have an LS12000 compete in my black cave against my N5 on 133". In particular, also testing DTM, which looked very good during the 2 dealer visits to the Epson VS NZ7.

Since a few of the comments me and the JVC comparison for ridiculous, I will not continue to report here. Why should I do my work? If you are still more interested in practical reports than in comments from your desk chair, you can have a look here or other German forums.

good bye

I'd like to hear what you think

Shame it would make interesting reading.
Sorry to see Speedy go, and quite pissed that it's due to all the snarky comments around here. I'm sure Speedy's reports from the other forums will make it back here somehow.
 

darrellh44

Active Member
Anything that can’t display 10,000 nits has to tone map, anything that does it once per film based on metadata is static anything that does it scene by scene or frame by frame based on analysing the brightness of the scene or frame it dynamic. DTM is a pretty standard thing, it does what it says on the tin, if it doesn’t say DTM then it probably isn’t DTM.
The two statements in bold seem to be somewhat contradictory. Do you consider Epson's dynamic gamma enhancement a form of DTM or not even though Epson doesn't call it DTM?
 
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markymiles

Distinguished Member
On Sunday we will have an LS12000 compete in my black cave against my N5 on 133". In particular, also testing DTM, which looked very good during the 2 dealer visits to the Epson VS NZ7.

Since a few of the comments me and the JVC comparison for ridiculous, I will not continue to report here. Why should I do my work? If you are still more interested in practical reports than in comments from your desk chair, you can have a look here or other German forums.

good bye
Like others I too would like to hear your thoughts. Please don't be put off posting. I can see why you are where you are, but don't let the downers win the day. PLenty of people very happy to hear such a positive comparison. As an Epson owner we have lived with this attitude for years. People love to try and continually highlight the negatives and compare to more expensive PJ's.

Doesn't stop most of us being very happy owners.
 

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