New Epson 4k Lasers

markymiles

Distinguished Member
And not forgetting ignorance is bliss. Some people don't spend their life measuring, comparing or looking for problems and just enjoy what they have.

I used to be obsessed with the science behind things. Running endless calibrations on both audio and video. For me the eureka moment came when ASR reviewed the receiver I happened to own at the time the Nad T758. The science scored it the worst he had tested. And you know what it sounded good to me. So from that point on I realised that science wasn't everything. Just like the contrast, pixel fill, brightness, motion theory and discussions on here. It has its place but its not everything and you do need to actually see with your own eyes all these differences to see if they actually exist for you outside of measurements.

It's also very hard once you know the measurements to be objective. That's expectation bias. I think we all suffer with that to varying degrees.
 

Harold88

Member
And not forgetting ignorance is bliss. Some people don't spend their life measuring, comparing or looking for problems and just enjoy what they have.

It's not about being obsessed with finding issues but we are discussing about devices that cost a lot of money. So when someone ask what are the strong points and the issues of one of those expensive devices, we have a duty to tell the truth as othwerise what is the point of a forum? If we want to hear only what we like, we can open youtube and 99% of the videos are just marketing bs.

Usually when I want to buy something, anything, I always try to find the bad reviews, or the bad parts of the reviews, to see what are the problems of the thing I am going to spend my money on.
 

Triggaaar

Distinguished Member
Watch the first 10 seconds when camera is moving to show us all the heroes. Watch them carefully and you will notice that the image has the tendency to be teared apart, like theose heroes are literary shaking. You have an LCD monitor and you will notice this. On CRT monitor you probably won't as those have one of the best motion handling there is but who uses CRT anymore?

For this test to be concludent, firstly go to your video settings and choose 24 hz refresh rate. After that you will understand what the problem is.

Of course you can output in 60hz from player when using projector so the problem will be much less evident, like you are doing on PC.

P.S. remember this is a stress test scene, the worst possible situation so in 99% of the time you won't notice anything like this.

Civil War is unusual, because it was not shot at 24fps, it was shot higher and then it gets played back at 24, which removes motion blur and gives you choppy motion instead. I read that the director wanted people to feel uneasy watching it, because the heroes are fighting each other - I'm not sure whether that's true or not, but it's a bad excuse if it is, because the motion is awful to watch even when they're working as a team.

Summary:
It's the worst motion I can remember seeing in a film, and the director is an idiot.
 
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markymiles

Distinguished Member
It's not about being obsessed with finding issues but we are discussing about devices that cost a lot of money. So when someone ask what are the strong points and the issues of one of those expensive devices, we have a duty to tell the truth as othwerise what is the point of a forum? If we want to hear only what we like, we can open youtube and 99% of the videos are just marketing bs.

Usually when I want to buy something, anything, I always try to find the bad reviews, or the bad parts of the reviews, to see what are the problems of the thing I am going to spend my money on.
My first comment was more continuing with what was written on the post before suggesting they have sold/will sell well despite the perceived issues that people will bring up. ie not everyone can see these issues.
 

Harold88

Member
What people claim thay see and what they actually see but don't notice, are different things.

On AVS forum there is a guy that, for whatever reason, he went from JVC N7 to LG 810. That LG has a very low contrast, even for DLP standards.

He claims that he is not able to see differences in black levels beween N7 and that .47 chip DLP. What you can say to that?
 

markymiles

Distinguished Member
I don't know the whole story or his environment and that is of course an extreme example but for him then that's good isn't it?

Same for a lot of the issues that have been raised. Pixel fill, not visible by most from their viewing distance, same for pixel shifting vs 4K. Motion not a problem for most on the 9400 and likely this is better. Contrast differences in real world viewing not as obvious as the numbers suggest. That was my point.

But everything seems to get exaggerated and then argued over, especially the PJ threads at the moment. Are people a bit bored?
 

Stridsvognen

Distinguished Member
I don't know the whole story or his environment and that is of course an extreme example but for him then that's good isn't it?

Same for a lot of the issues that have been raised. Pixel fill, not visible by most from their viewing distance, same for pixel shifting vs 4K. Motion not a problem for most on the 9400 and likely this is better. Contrast differences in real world viewing not as obvious as the numbers suggest. That was my point.

But everything seems to get exaggerated and then argued over, especially the PJ threads at the moment. Are people a bit bored?
So what your saying is that you would not really notice if you got a Epson EB-FH06 there is nothing out there that you would notice perform better in any meaningful way no matter price, as pixel fill, contrast, resolution and motion will not be noticable.
Then the question is, why do anyone care about how the new LS11000 and LS12000 perform, as a projector is basically just a projector.

 

SamAVR

Standard Member
And not forgetting ignorance is bliss. Some people don't spend their life measuring, comparing or looking for problems and just enjoy what they have.

I used to be obsessed with the science behind things. Running endless calibrations on both audio and video. For me the eureka moment came when ASR reviewed the receiver I happened to own at the time the Nad T758. The science scored it the worst he had tested. And you know what it sounded good to me. So from that point on I realised that science wasn't everything. Just like the contrast, pixel fill, brightness, motion theory and discussions on here. It has its place but its not everything and you do need to actually see with your own eyes all these differences to see if they actually exist for you outside of measurements.

It's also very hard once you know the measurements to be objective. That's expectation bias. I think we all suffer with that to varying degrees.

Yeah, I have the same AVR and read the same results on ASR, including all the disappointed people on the forum who had now discovered their expensive amp was not very good.

Then those that atacked the results because they have the T758 and felt the process of testing was poor.

Except, I don't care about that. The sound is fantastic and (esp Dirac'd up) the soundstage is totally enveloping.

The science is interesting and forms part of my considerations around new equipment I do not own. I'm less interested when I'm being told something I own and enjoy is no good, for some obscure reason.
 

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
So what your saying is that you would not really notice if you got a Epson EB-FH06 there is nothing out there that you would notice perform better in any meaningful way no matter price, as pixel fill, contrast, resolution and motion will not be noticable.
Then the question is, why do anyone care about how the new LS11000 and LS12000 perform, as a projector is basically just a projector.

No what I think @markymiles was meaning was if you are happy with what you own all the stats and figures mean little.

I won’t say any Epson is the pinnacle of projector performance but in the price bracket of the 9400 it is most certainly the king of bang for your buck and at other price points above and below this you will have similar models which represent excellent performance for the price.

I struggle to understand why anyone would find this difficult to get their head around. To a complete and utter nerd stuff like pixel fill etc means everything but to most others the important thing is being happy with what they see at the price they can afford, plain and simple.
 

markymiles

Distinguished Member
Yeah, I have the same AVR and read the same results on ASR, including all the disappointed people on the forum who had now discovered their expensive amp was not very good.

Then those that atacked the results because they have the T758 and felt the process of testing was poor.

Except, I don't care about that. The sound is fantastic and (esp Dirac'd up) the soundstage is totally enveloping.

The science is interesting and forms part of my considerations around new equipment I do not own. I'm less interested when I'm being told something I own and enjoy is no good, for some obscure reason.
Exactly. So that example is a good one where if we listened only to science no one would buy that receiver. As it measured so poorly compared to all others. The fact that 99% of those measurements were a range of inaudible vs inaudible could easily get lost in translation.

Same as here. People get a bit carried away with the measurements. People need to see this PJ too to see what all the measurements translates to. Not use science for their entire decision. As they might be surprised in either direction. Could be worse than they were expecting too!!

Just trying to suggest a more balanced approach.
 

Ricoflashback

Active Member
What people claim thay see and what they actually see but don't notice, are different things.

On AVS forum there is a guy that, for whatever reason, he went from JVC N7 to LG 810. That LG has a very low contrast, even for DLP standards.

He claims that he is not able to see differences in black levels beween N7 and that .47 chip DLP. What you can say to that?
He works for LG.
 

Attfb

Member
For me the eureka moment came when ASR reviewed the receiver I happened to own at the time the Nad T758. The science scored it the worst he had tested. And you know what it sounded good to me. So from that point on I realised that science wasn't everything.
Science is only as good as your skills in interpreting it. ASR's review of the T758 is pretty much: "here is an arbitraty measure at an arbitrary level. It distorts here. But yeah, if you stay below -5 dBm it works just fine. Btw this is the worst thing I've ever reviewed because of my made up metric".
 

Stridsvognen

Distinguished Member
No what I think @markymiles was meaning was if you are happy with what you own all the stats and figures mean little.

I won’t say any Epson is the pinnacle of projector performance but in the price bracket of the 9400 it is most certainly the king of bang for your buck and at other price points above and below this you will have similar models which represent excellent performance for the price.

I struggle to understand why anyone would find this difficult to get their head around. To a complete and utter nerd stuff like pixel fill etc means everything but to most others the important thing is being happy with what they see at the price they can afford, plain and simple.
Nobody is disagreeing that its a personal choice, but when discussing new projectors/ upgrades in a thread like this, should we then discuss in relevance to what some are pleased with, base the discussion on those who dont notice contrast, pixel fill, resolution and other image parameters, or should we base it on those who see a difference, and notice differences from model to model?

If someone is happy with a projector like the TW9400, why would they come here to tell what they cant see, and tell people how important it is to be happy about what you got, and be ignorant of what might be better, and what parameters to look at?

Are you answering for markymiles, or just guessing what he meant?
 

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
Nobody is disagreeing that its a personal choice, but when discussing new projectors/ upgrades in a thread like this, should we then discuss in relevance to what some are pleased with, base the discussion on those who dont notice contrast, pixel fill, resolution and other image parameters, or should we base it on those who see a difference, and notice differences from model to model?
EVERY projector has it's pluses and minuses including your favourite but things need to be kept in perspective, the majority aren't bothered by motion, pixel fill, contrast or the other stuff that's extremely important to nerds (no offence) because to them they go view the product and if they like it they buy it and if they don't then they look at something else which is why I always suggest getting a demo because not everyone's priorities are the same and neither are their eyes.
If someone is happy with a projector like the TW9400, why would they come here to tell what they cant see, and tell people how important it is to be happy about what you got, and be ignorant of what might be better, and what parameters to look at?
I think you will find based on sales that the VAST MAJORITY of people are very happy with the 9400 otherwise it wouldn't have sold in the numbers it has because in the price bracket there's a lot of players to choose from and as I said above in my other post there is always something better but there's always a compromise and it's almost always comes down to money, is the JVC whatever the best? HELL NO but again you need to spend more so what really is your point.
Are you answering for markymiles, or just guessing what he meant?
I think Mark is man big enough to answer you himself but I was only clarifying what I felt he was trying to put across.
 

Triggaaar

Distinguished Member
the majority aren't bothered by motion, pixel fill, contrast or the other stuff that's extremely important to nerds
So why are they spending over £1k on a projector?


I think you will find based on sales that the VAST MAJORITY of people are very happy with the 9400 otherwise it wouldn't have sold in the numbers it has
Yes, definitely. But equally the vast majority of people were very happy with a 32" TV, and the vast majority are happy with the BenQ W1070 (chosen since I have one). Also, the vast majority (not the nerds) won't be reading this thread, so it doesn't matter if some nerdy points are discussed here.

These new projectors are over £4k, and whilst that's not much compared to the new rip-off JVC prices, it's still a lot of money for a projector, so it doesn't make sense to just pretend they're amazing. For those that don't care about the things being discussed, they might as well get a cheaper projector (or keep what they have).
 

IWC Dopplel

Distinguished Member
I will await reviews here. Which we might get before xmas, hopefully ?

Be great to see some actual measurements and subjective impressions by those with JVC/Sony and other epson experience. I keep looking on the thread ;)
 

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
So why are they spending over £1k on a projector?
Why cherry pick what I said to make it look this way? o_O
These new projectors are over £4k, and whilst that's not much compared to the new rip-off JVC prices, it's still a lot of money for a projector, so it doesn't make sense to just pretend they're amazing. For those that don't care about the things being discussed, they might as well get a cheaper projector (or keep what they have).
Totally agree here, compared to the 9400 they don't appear to be offering much more other than the switch to laser and improved gaming features which might be the ticket some were looking whilst others like myself had been hoping for more an improvement from home theatre use, it really depends on what reviews tell us it's features like SDG and then each individual will need to gauge if it's worthwhile going to get a demo.
 

Harold88

Member
It's hard to understand why would anyone be bothered that we are discussing the issues of devices that are actually very expensive.

I mean, it's not like we are buying a chocolate that cost 2$ and if we don't like it we just throw it away and buy another and , after we have spent 10$ on 5 different chocolates, we finnaly find one that we like.
We can't really do this with 4000$ AV devices, can't we?

And going to watch it in a showroom although is very helpfull it's not always that easy. Maby the shoroom near you it's not really a batcave or maby you just don't have a clue what you should be paing attention to and the dealer will easily convince you to buy something that he wants to sell. It's better to go there prepared and know what to test. I was lucky that when I watched my projector the dealer was a honest man and he pointed to me the issues and the limmitations of that projector, but how many are doing this?
 
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Luminated67

Distinguished Member
It's hard to understand why would anyone be bothered that we are discussing the issues of devices that are actually very expensive.

I mean, it's not like we are buying a chocolate that cost 2$ and if we don't like it we just throw it away and buy another and , after we have spent 10$ on 5 different chocolates, we finnaly find one that we like.
We can't really do this with 4000$ AV devices, can't we?

If you could get a sample of each of those chocs instead of buying each would that not be better?

That's why you go and get a demo of things you are considering and then pick which you prefer, surely that's the logical thing to do rather than scaremonger someone into thinking something is more of an issue than it really is. :rolleyes:
 

markymiles

Distinguished Member
Nobody is disagreeing that its a personal choice, but when discussing new projectors/ upgrades in a thread like this, should we then discuss in relevance to what some are pleased with, base the discussion on those who dont notice contrast, pixel fill, resolution and other image parameters, or should we base it on those who see a difference, and notice differences from model to model?

If someone is happy with a projector like the TW9400, why would they come here to tell what they cant see, and tell people how important it is to be happy about what you got, and be ignorant of what might be better, and what parameters to look at?

Are you answering for markymiles, or just guessing what he meant?

I wasn't suggesting for one minute we ignore the science and the measurements despite you completely missing my point. I was just suggesting people also actually see this PJ in action with their own eyes. Our eyes are all different and what you see may be very different to someone else. I mean you can see things that an eagle can't.

This PJ seems to have garnered a lot of interest look at the size of the thread compared to the new JVC Lasers. A fair chunk of the posts seem to be really negative, I don't really get why people want to come on here and just try and highlight negative aspects all the time. Almost as if they have an agenda?!?
 

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
I wasn't suggesting for one minute we ignore the science and the measurements despite you completely missing my point. I was just suggesting people also actually see this PJ in action with their own eyes. Our eyes are all different and what you see may be very different to someone else. I mean you can see things that an eagle can't.

This PJ seems to have garnered a lot of interest look at the size of the thread compared to the new JVC Lasers. A fair chunk of the posts seem to be really negative, I don't really get why people want to come on here and just try and highlight negative aspects all the time. Almost as if they have an agenda?!?
100000000000%
 

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