Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by CH3, Jan 8, 2003.
things are looking good..
If the prices are kept reasonable they are certainly looking up. The ones with the large hard disks look particularly interesting
The Pioneer DVR-99H with 120GB hard drive sounds fantastic. And a February release? I'll believe that when I see it but I'm not holding my breath!
will any of these things control your STB, or are we all reliant on using the Sky planner?
Especially with HDD, you need decent programming and channel controls.
And STILL there is none with a DVB tuner
Specs say that the DVD has pro scan output. Anyone know if this will be PAL progressive? A DVD recorder with HDD and PAL progressive would be exactly what I am looking for.
Have a look here
An integrated digital terrestrial receiver and hard disk recorder
Havn't seen any on sale yet though
I can't understand why they have no Digital inputs for audio! so can't record the digital stream from an STB. Not major but i think it is limiting.
There's a wide array of new DVD recorders but Im disappointed to say that I cant see one that stands out as an ideal machine.
DVD+R may theoretically be the better format, but from first-hand experience I know just how buggy and problematic the Philips recorders are. Perhaps these new, inexpensive DVDR75 and DVDR80 machines will resolve these problems but you wont know for certain until theyve been in use for a good few months, and Philips still dont offer a machine with a hard drive.
Both the Panasonic recorders seem pretty good machines. The E50 seems pretty cheap, but while the HS2 comes with a hard-drive its highly expensive at £880. Crucially, however, neither machine supports a rewritable DVDR format.
The DVR-001 seems hopeful to be quite cheap, while the DVR-002H supports both DVD-R and DVD-RW, and also features an internal hard-drive. However, with Pioneer likely to use the same firmware thats on their 105 DVD drives they might not write to cheap, unbranded media.
The first machine to supposedly support both +R and R. However, it now transpires it will only write to DVD-RW, DVD-R and DVD+RW disks, not DVD+R. The machine wont arrive until June, is a costly £500, and theres no model incorporating a hard drive.
Rather too expensive at £500, and theres no hard-drive option.
Not a bad price at £370, but it remains to be seen if it has the same problems as the existing Philips models, and there's no hard drive option.
MICO, DAEQOO, TAE YOUNG TELSTAR, MUSTEK, MET, ETC
No details on price or release schedules, and none appear likely to provide an internal hard-drive.
The only machine on the horizon that supports both a write-once and rewritable DVDR format and features a hard drive is the reasonably priced Pioneer DVR-002H, but I guess I'll have to wait for reports on how it handles the cheaper media.
It's also worth noting that the cheaper manufacturers appear to be adopting DVD+R as their standard. Makes me a bit wary about going down the -R route, although I'd hope that format is now well-enough established for computer use at least that blank media will always be around and reasonably cheap.
Hmm! have I not read somewhere that Toshiba Hitachi and JVC are about to release DVD-Ram DVD-R recorders? Certainly this format is by far and away the most versatile for home video use - not forgetting of course the even better HS2, well it is in the Panasonic package anyway.
THe HS2 is only £799 at multigegionmagic in region 2 form, I paid an extra £30 to get the multiregion one.
Thr machine supports naked DVD-ram discs which may be better supported by new players in the future, but the whole point is being missed here.
Once you have the hard drive the need for rewritable media is gone, except where you wish to temporarily store programs off the hard drive. EG I wish to get the whole Dune mini series on sci-fy channel and am putting episodes 1 and 2 on a -ram disc so as not to waste write once media should I miss an episode and give up over the 3 week period of broadcast.
Once the required program is on the hard drive it can be edited as reqired to remove over-run, ads etc quickly and easily, and then burnt to DVD-r. The original is still on the hard drive so if the media fails or you want more copies the option is still available. The panasonic is superb here as it can adjust the quality to exactly fill the media.
I can't see the logic in the non hard drive machines of any make as editing is limited and even if you create the perfect edit on rewritable material, you still have to have another machine to play it back to get the neccesary permanent copy.
THerefore the pricing of the hs2 looks much more reasonable.
To get the equivalent with any other recorder requires an additional hard drive recorder such as a tivo or sky+ and not owning one I have no idea if the programs can be edited before recording to dvd or what the relative quality is. Or alternately a dvd player that can play back the rewritable material with the edited program on so that the recorder can produce the permanent copy. They are also very restricted with a maximum of 6 hours at poor quality on any of the machines without the hard drive.
Therefore alternatives are
1) E30 or phillips at approx £450 plus Sky+ at £300? plus £120 year. So for 5 year life of equipment = £1350. (Tivo costs would be similar, possibly £100 less) I accept that this gives an easy to use programme recorder and second tuner, but I have rarely needed this due to the huge number of repeats available.
2) E30 or phillips plus reasonable compatible dvd player say £700 total, slightly cheaper than the HS2 but only up to 2 hours at a time recording at decent quality.
THe DVD-R media is cheap at under £1 a go for reasonable quality, and I have not had a media failure yet, although I have not had the machine that long. I also understand that virtually every player made can play these back and as it is a core supported media this is unlikely to change in the future until DVD itself goes out of fashion.
What surprised me most was the usefullness of the hard drive and how much I just use the machine for time shifting. There are about 6 hours of programs to see on the drive at present with more to record to day to fill the more barren hours next week, with no inserting and removal of media and resorting to the 6 hour mode to fit things in before the next opportunity to replace or turn over the dvd-ram.
The ability to pause a current program or catch up with it or a recording already underway is the real killer in the panasonic system. This is so useful.
I've been looking at getting a Pioneer DVR 55/77/99 ever since I heard of their release in Japan, so, I just got on the phone to Pioneer's UK customer relations dept to ask if they would be able to output PAL progressive and the guy said he's aware they are available in Japan but says there are no plans to release them at all in this country!!!!!
According to AVLAND.CO.UK these players are due for UK release this February although no prices as yet. I am remaining optimistic. Failing these the new Panny looks promising with prog scan and 120gb HDD. (although I dont know when this is due for release) Hopefully it will feature co-axial as well as optical unlike the HS2.
Lets keep our fingers crossed
And still NO DD5.1/dts audio recording option.
This is scandalous. I certainly would not consider buying a standalone machine until at least dd5.1 was implemented.
How may channels broadcast with that anyway?
You are never going to get DD5.1/DTS broadcasts across the board.. well not in this decade anyhow... how long has it taken sky to broadcast a couple of movie channels in 5.1?
Pipe dream I feel..
I for one am wanting DD 5.1 input big time. And to be honest, i think Sky is gonna have to start broadcasting more new material with better sound soon as most people are irritated by the stereo broadcasts when they are using expensive AV amps.
It is a given that old (recycled trash wish takes up 95%) material will not be broadcast in another format, but new films and broadcasts on channels such as Sky One etc should be getting better.
I wouldnt be surprised if we have to wait for the advent of HDTV though....which of course is gonna be a while.
But what reason do Sky have for investing money in developing 5.1 broadcasts?
With the introduction of facilities like PLII & Neo 6, the very people who could take advantage of 5.1 broadcasts (i.e those that already have AV receivers), have a similar feature in place already. I know the old "DD is far better than PLII" argument will probably come up again - I don't doubt that it is - but I suspect that the simple point of view from Sky, is that if they don't have to - why should they??!!
Surely someone interested enough in movies to go to the extent of gaining the capability of DD/DTS etc will buy the movies that they want to hear this way anyway? Who wants to listen to Eastenders in DD??!!
Just my opinion...
It seems to me that all the avantages of dvd-ram over dvd+rw would be removed if Philips would only put out a DVDR with hard disk recording. Then you could do all the chasing playback, editing and using all the spare space etc.
The advantage would be that you could do a nice clean, edited dubbing to +rw and lend it to your mates/play it in your bedroom/use it in a portable DVD player. When you're finished you can reuse it.
If you're a comuter this would be great for the train as you'd always have free stuff to watch.
Come on Philips, get moving.
Well, I would firmly believe that investing in compression techniques in order to deliver DD 5.1 in lieu of the delivery of hundreds of channels of crap would be a far better use of the available bandwidth than the current situation.
However, I would also agree with the comment that certain types of programming is not really worth the advantage (although I would still prefer DD 5.1 on ANY program type). However, just about all films & a good number of specially filmed TV Drama's etc are available from source as DD 5.1, so why not make them available for broadcast?
I cannot see the sense in increasing the number of channels and not using the advantage of the current technology which has been in the marketplace for years.....why more channels of inferior broadcasts?
I cringe at the announcment of every new new channel and wish for the day the announcement that every new production would be broadcast with a decent sound format...ah well, Keep Dreaming!
recording DD5.1 would be very expensive
I do not understand your point. Panasonic already offer this in the form of the HS2 and soon HS3.
I went for the E30 for a variety of reasons. Philips realibilty issues and the flexible record were the deciding factors.
Exactly, I have recorded a few films I am not too bothered about from Sky Movies where it really doesn't make too much difference
between DD2 and DD5.1.
Don't get me wrong I would prefer to record in DD5.1 but if it is going to cost 1000 whatever more than what is the point? you can buy films in sales for 6.99 odd by the time they are on sky
Exactly, this is why I went for the Sky+ E30 package
I wanted a second box upstairs and getting sky+ only worked out a little more expensive with the loyalty offer I got.
Sky+ is automatically updated with the latest software, dual record coming very soon, fingers crossed more editing facilities soon. With sky+ recording is a complete doddle; no videoplus; timer recordings etc which would be a right pain in the backside.
You also get DD5.1 on movie channel
I did consider the HS2 for the editing facilities but I haven't found this to be an issue. I simply record onto sky+ then only watch when it is a convenient time to archive. I can then edit out the ads cleanly.
A second DVD-RAM player is not really a good solution due to the drop in quality and if you were putting 6 episodes from edited -RAM to -R then all 6 episodes would be recorded as a single recording.
I do wish Panny had put more thought into menus, surely this would have been quite easy similar to the menus you can create in DVD-RAM.
One quick question, having looked at the specs for the E50 they seem exactly the same as the E30, what is the diffenerence?
Hopefully such a machine should be available soon from Philips. I recently purchased their HDR1000 ... this is a hd recorder with DVD player inbuilt (the quality is excellent) it cannot be too difficult for them to replace the DVD player with a DVD+RW unit.
Unfortunately, Sky have no regard for people's irritation; they are purely money driven. This is proved by their high density advertising and unending red dots all over the place...
To achieve this Philips would need to develop a new format to bridge the gap between the linear system of DVD+RW and the non-linear makeup of a file format on HDD.
This is not as simple as it sounds and is why we are yet to see a +RW/HDD combo. The same problem has not arisen with the DVD Multi formats (-RW, -RAM) because both use essentially the same file structure in linear modes (VRO) which includes 'padding' files to account for editting which matches the file structure of a DVD Video (for -R). This would essentially mean a Philips machine would have to convert it's file structure into .VRO file structure to use on the HDD. While this is possible it's quite likely that some of the functionality seen on other HDD/DVDR combos may be lost. Accordingly Philips are not currently working in this direction - especially priced their players at the budget end of the market.
Sony is planning a HDD/DVD-RW combo which will also play and record onto +RW disk but, crucially, you will not be able to dub from +RW to the HDD and vice versa.
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