Discussion in 'Hybrid, PHEV & EV Electric Cars Forum' started by Stuart Wright, Jul 26, 2017.
Battery hire | Renault Finance | Services | Renault UK
You can hire the battery, you said you have to due to environmental laws. I said it's being phased out as a costing model, not that you can't do it.
Option 2, which you conveniently ignored:
Purchase Options | ZOE | Electric | Renault UK
Prices & Specifications - Nissan LEAF - Electric Car | Nissan
I’m not sure about lorries but electric buses seem pretty practical right now. We are trialling by a couple here in Canberra and they have around 320KW of battery pack and can do 300 miles (500km) on a full charge. Look like a normal bus and lose nothing in terms of the service they provide around Canberra.
Well ahead of a ban if it included buses in 2040
Went for a ride in a brand new bus in York (from the city to Monks Cross shopping centre) and have a suspicion its electric. Very quiet ride and at traffic lights was totally silent - in other words a full EV bus.
Looked no different to the other buses in York.
Our two on trial are so novel here they have ‘I’m Electric’ painted on them! No chance of wondering if they are or aren’t!
And this train of thought is exactly why am so enthusiastic about sharing my experiences on how good EVs are!!
The traditional auto manfactures are so stuck in their ways they simply cannot see life beyond what they sell at the moment, and thats exactly why unless they change many will go the way of Nokia and Kodak.
The BMW 3 series is one of the best selling cars in the UK, it costs from £28k, almost exactly the same price as the cheapest Model 3 when it arrives.
As for installing EV charge points you do realise all they are is essentially a 32amp socket with a fancy connector on the end?
If the UK managed to retrofit central heating and a flushing toilet to older housing stock I think adding an addtional external eletrical socket is hardly that taxing?
How many car companies existed before we ended up with what we have now? Making an EV is ALOT harder than what everyone thinks, hence why what Tesla have acheived is so astounding.
As for 'concerns' about battery degredation you really don't need to worry.
Electric Taxi company clocks 100,000 miles in Nissan LEAF - Zap-Map
The below is a long piece but summary is after 70K lost only 3 mile of range due to degredation.
BMW i3 Long Term Battery Capacity Report: Better Than Expected
Tesla battery data shows path to over 500,000 miles on a single pack
what the fudge are you on about? No one 'owns' the battery pack in my car but my self.
Is this the kind of rubbish EV info tradtional manfactures are telling themselves?? The CEOs might as well write their resignation letter now.
You can put your head in the sand and ignore EVs as much as you like but change is coming and much quicker than you think.
Starts off a post with "I work for an automotive supplier", suggesting he knows what he's on about due to his job.
Goes on to spout nonsense.
Renault are the only business really pushing battery rental now. It allowed people to buy the old Zoe for under £9k new, now as low as £4k used. And it allows people to buy the new model for as little as £11k. While I can't say I'm keen on that model of ownership, those prices are substantially lower than the competition. It was £6k cheaper to buy the 180 mile range Zoe with battery rental instead of the ~110 mile capable Leaf (with owned battery). Even with an unlimited mileage agreement, that's 4.5 years of battery rental payments before breaking even with the lower range, and in many ways lower spec Leaf.
Sure but many EV owners rent the battery from the manufacturer. It was/is a business model for EVs.
EV manufacturers have continuous pressure to take responsibility for the environmental hazards the batteries in their vehicles can present - especially at disposal. Most owners at that point will prefer the manufacturer is responsible for disposing/recycling - even if they have solely owned the batteries in the vehicle.
Whilst agree with much of your post, this statement is ridiculous.
No-one knows how much a Model 3 will be, but most estimates (and you've stated repeatedly) say it'll be £35k.
That's 25% more, not even close to being "almost exactly the same".
Oh, and you can get a 3-series for £26,790 before any discount, so the difference is even larger.
Milton Keynes have in operation 8 electric buses, the project has been going for several years and proving to be successful.
I believe roll-out projects of electric buses are underway in many UK cities.
They will be well underway over there. We are usually about 5-10 years behind depending what the ‘thing’ is over here
Manufacturers are responsible for disposal in the EU. Ownership makes no difference.
And “how much electricity is used refining oil?”
I know, I linked to the Nissan page where you can see the two different options. but Fluffyhead was stating that battery rental was the only way to to get an EV, which most of us with EVs know is complete nonsense. Battery rental was a sensible option when battery life was an unknown and it was assumed the expensive batteries would need changing.
Nissan barely promote the Flex programme these days, and a lot of Flex vehicles are having their batteries purchased by the owners.
Nissan still offer the option, but it's now just Renault standing firmly behind the battery lease model.
So many people people think running an EV is clean, no pollution, and that is quite correct when only running the EV on the road.
Charging the EV is however a different kettle of fish as it demands power from the power station. Currently there are about 26 million registered ICE cars on UK roads. Assuming all cars will be EVs in (say) 2050, how will the power stations cope with charging 26 million EV cars?
So your question could be "how much oil or gas or coal or nuclear power is used to generate enough electricity to keep 26 million electric cars on the road without additional pollution?"
Our EV is carbon neutral in that we generate as much electricity at home as we put into our car. Of course it's not that simple, because very little of that energy charges the car direct, given that we usually charge overnight. And of course I appreciate that not everyone can accommodate Solar Panels. But I wonder whether the government could look into making incentives for people that get/have the two together.
Looking at the figures, the break even point seems to be about 40,000 miles (based on 7,500 miles over five years). Under that it's cheaper to lease, over that buy, at least looking at the current Lease figures for Nissan. Which is no doubt why they are phasing Flex out as most people probably don't keep their cars for long enough for them to get their money back on battery hire.
PS I don't recall being offered leasing the battery as an option when we pcp'd ours but I may have missed it.
No, my question is still “how much electricity is used to refine oil which then generates more pollution when it’s used?” That’s a hidden part of the fossil fuel side of the equation.
I don’t for a moment suggest that how we scale up electricity generation and local power capacity aren’t very important questions as we move to EVs but an INCREASE in pollution is, imho, not even a reasonable suggestion. Convenience is a reasonable question. Fuel duty replacement is a reasonable question. But not pollution. Higher efficiency of EVs, ease of distribution, improvements in renewable tech are all important factors. Will we need 3 more nuclear power stations or 9 more gas stations? Maybe. It will still be cleaner.
We have capacity for about 80GW today including imports. Overnight load is about 30GW this week. That gives enough spare capacity (assuming no noticeable reduction in load for reduced oil refinery requirements) for about 7million cars charging simultaneously at 7kW.
Obviously not all cars will charge at once. Not all cars will charge at night. Not all cars are limited to 7kW Charge rates.
So it certainly needs proper analysis and investment but there is a decent margin to play with already. I think we’ll hit the local capacity issue, in areas where EVs are more popular, sooner than we’ll stretch the overall generation limit.
Good post @choddo. You've covered my points well and, given time, I will conjures up some more stuff for you to think about.
...Maybe concerning the manufacture of 26 million battery packs by 2050 to meet the UK demand alone - let alone the recycling and safe disposal requirements.
Lithium is an element, it doesn't go anywhere.
Recycling it back into new batteries is clearly an important factor moving forward.
Burning stuff unnecessarily isn't the way to go.
Although I'm not giving up my Plasma TV just yet.
The scale of battery manufacture is one angle that scares the **** out of me. I know we have the brilliantly named Tesla Gigafactory and China are ramping up production to compete with that. I'm not worried about Lithium, but there are other, much rarer materials needed. Usually need and cash drives technology and these things get solved but I can see serious bumps on the road ahead in getting this scaled up.
@Alan CD I know you're just debating.....
There are closer to 33 million UK cars (DVLA Dec 2016) and average mileage is less than 8000 mpa.
Yes there are exceptions, but average miles per KWh for an EV is about 4 to 5 and will improve....meaning each car needs about 40KW per week or around 6KW per day. (GZoom excluded)
I know that I am over simplifying, but with load balancing smart chargers, that would require less than 1 KW per hour trickling overnight. UK has around 80 to 85GW capacity vs overnight demand of around 26 GW. Coal is less than5% of UK power generation these days and renewable power is an ever increasing chunk of that capacity. There will be smart tariffs coming your way soon to manage this and save you ££.
Also hybrids are not included in the often misquoted "ban on petrol and diesel powered cars" from 2040, it isn't a foregone conclusion that all cars will be battery electric only at that stage.
The last bit below is a cut and paste job, from US Geographical survey about the resources for EV battery packs.
From where everyone is standing right now, it may seem that the world’s got a fair amount of lithium. According to global estimates by the U.S. Geological Survey, there is enough lithium in the world – 13.5 million metric tons of it – to last us over 350 years in batteries.
And that is without the recycling (reuse) that is supposed to be going on presumably. Whilst I am sure EU rules require manufacturers (of the batteries or the things the batteries power?) to be responsible for the batteries in environmental terms, I doubt recovery is at astounding levels. How many of you dispose of all your lithium batteries into the appropriate stream for recycling? And I mean ALL of them.
Car (or battery?) manufacturers have things in place to cover the rules I have no doubt. Some decent enforcement will be required in the coming decades to ensure lithium (and other rare elements essential for the technology) doesn’t go the way of fossil fuels.
And of course the UK government(s) will need to ensure that EU law is copied across in the ‘pick and choose’ process - or simply get on with sorting it out regardless.
I have given up on our government here even starting to look at this. They are still bringing lumps of ‘clean’ coal into question time and supporting new coal fired power stations to replace the ancient ones closing down.........
I put all of my batteries of any chemistry in the proper recycling place.
I've probably got 40gwh of Li-Ion in old phones just stored in drawers at home though
A lot (if not most now) councils will have secondary segregation. So even if you do not segregate your waste it will end up in the right place. A lot are having to do this to meet targets for recycling due to us as the public not being the best at it.
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