New diesel and petrol vehicles to be banned from 2040 in UK

Discussion in 'Hybrid, PHEV & EV Electric Cars Forum' started by Stuart Wright, Jul 26, 2017.

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  1. Squiffy

    Squiffy
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    I'll point you to your own post #113 and leave it at that.
    [emoji8]
     
  2. Clem_Dye

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    Threads do sometimes have a tendancy to wander off-topic, but it's still a discussion about EV, just in a wider context. No issues with the content from me. EVs will only be a solution if we have the necessary infrastructure to make them work. A discussion about that, to my mind, is perfectly valid. How are we going to provide the electricity needed to charge these vehicles, where will we charge them, what are the implications for fossil-fueled car owners as we move toward this EV nirvana, and so on? As I see it, they are all perfectly valid points in the discussion. That people tend to express their views in different ways is what makes this interesting. If we all agreed that EVs were great, was going to be a 100% success then the thread itself would be pretty pointless.

    Clem
     
  3. Frostytouch

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    There is an emerging tech known as V2G charging / chargers for EV owners.

    Still early days but this, with SMART meter tariffs will help go a little way to alleviate potential black outs around the UK. I may have misread but it seems to use the car battery to store and release current back to the grid all managed with the power companies and SMART tech. A bit like Tesla power wall maybe but in a nice car shaped package?

    Loads on the web, mainly techie stuff but it is coming (3 to 5 years) once prices become more economical to homes of EV owners here in Blighty.
     
  4. Clem_Dye

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    Interesting, potentially, but if you use EV batteries to prop-up deficiencies in the power grid, how do your EVs get fully charged? There have been a lot of ideas floated around recently about power grid support. One that I've seen uses solar panels to charge batteries during the day, and uses the battery power to keep things going overnight, during peak periods, rather than rely on the grid. We do live in interesting times .....

    Clem
     
  5. outoftheknow

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    Living off grid using solar and batteries is a thing here in Australia :) in rural and remote areas where electricity is a long way from the house and connection costs are horrendous or it isn't possible in particular.

    5kw of panels and a 10 Kw battery in Canberra gets you about 85% off grid. Plus feed in at its lowest in winter in winter but never zero. AU$20,000 installed. About £12,000.

    Off grid you use 'old fashioned' deep cycle cells normally rather than posh modern battery packs. You can't connect more than 5Kw to the grid either even if you can connect at all, so feed in isn't worth it if the aim is to go off grid. More space for panels too with ground mounting easy to do.

    Batteries here are really taking off. Residentially we do have more sun though so less panels required and possible on many non rural houses.
     
  6. Sonic67

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    We're driving to an electric future, but how do we keep the kettle on? - We're driving to an electric future, but how do we keep the kettle on? - BBC News

    A typical home is fitted with a main fuse of 60-80 amps, and the National Grid is pointing out that an 11kW car charger would require 48 amps, meaning that using a kettle, oven or immersion heater during charging would cause the main fuse to trip.

    With a 100 amp fuse, a 22kW charger could be used which would have a faster charge time of around three hours. This would, however, still require all other electrical appliances in the house to be turned off during charging.
     
  7. IronGiant

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    I thought most modern houses would be on 100Amps already?, after all most Consumer Units have a 100A circuit breaker in them these days.
     
  8. Frostytouch

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    Most home charger units (today) are 7KW, no one (volume players) is looking at fitting 11KW domestic chargers as far as I know.

    7KW charges pretty much any pure EV, except maybe the 100 Tesla models from empty to full overnight anyway, so this is just Daily Mail style scare mongering.
     
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  9. Clem_Dye

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    The article about the charging issues also surfaced in the Telegraph yesterday. The 100A fuse should be present on newer build properties, but there are many older properties out there that although having been re-wired, may still have a 60 or 80A main fuse. I'm not sure what rating mine is, but when I get the house re-wired (when it needs it) the fuse will have to be pulled so I'll check then, and if I can get it upgraded then I will. My take on it, having charged a loan BMW i3 at home for a couple of days, is that if a charger runs off a 13A socket it should be fine. We certainly had no issues using other domestic appliances when the car was charging, such as our electric hob and oven. However, the battery never got flat, so we had full charge after about six hours, and using the 13A charger it would obviously take longer than the dedicated 32A charger that BMW also offers.

    The whole policy just has not been thought through. I just can't see how the UK is going to get to this EV nirvana by 2040 whilst we don't have enough electricity generating capacity and domestic/household set-up that can't (potentially) support fast charging. I still think that hydrogen-fuelled cars have a big part to play. In any event, politically, 2040 is a long way off, so you could take the recent announcement with a pinch of salt. That said, diesel car owners have effectively been shafted recently, so who knows?

    Clem
     
  10. Clem_Dye

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    One thing sprung to mind after reading the BBC article. It's all well having charging points built into lamp posts and so forth as part of the street scene, but they'll just be a magnet for yobs and the vandalism that will almost certainly ensue. I don't fancy the idea of trying to charge my EV in a public street overnight.

    Clem
     
  11. IronGiant

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    The ambulance chasers will also have a field day. "Tripped over a charging lead? we can help..." :rolleyes:
     
  12. EarthRod

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    In the future everybody can travel around in electric chairs and charge up at a lamp post when the battery pack gets low.

    No need to walk any more :cool:
     
  13. IronGiant

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    [​IMG]

    :)
     
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  14. Bl4ckGryph0n

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    Yup I'm up for Segway transport :)
     
  15. X DSP

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    Agree with the (couple of posts) above about home charging. The norm seems to be 6kW which is more than fast enough, I haven't heard of any residential 11kW charging. My Leaf charges up to 80% normally within 1-1.5 hours of getting home with 20-30% range left and it's on a 30 Amp dedicated circuit, our house is a 100 Amp fuse so again plenty of room leftover for kettles, ovens etc. to all be on as well. In the 3 years of home charging we have never had a trip because of the car so I completely agree about this "news" falling into the usual sensationalist/scaremongering category.

    The YouTube channel Fully Charged did a video covering this point recently. He also covered some other stuff relating to the grid etc. all very interesting. I also came across this article which I thought would fit in with the discussion:

    Electric car emissions slashed by two thirds as electricity generation goes green

    Edit: Sorry forgot to add about the Vehicle to Grid stuff - again think there is huge potential there with everyone having a large battery sat on the drive every night, I can see a future where your car (or cars) will power the house overnight using only a small amount of the range, saving you needing the Powerwalls and other home batteries.
     
  16. IronGiant

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    There must be a market now for smart consumer units where your power generation/consumption is diverted where it can be used most effectively. There is a problem that a lot of EV's will be away from home during the day when solar generation is at it's highest. I know you can get a switch that dumps it into an immersion heater but I've calculated that it would take far too long to recoup the costs to be viable for us.

    A battery cassette where you have one on the wall and one in the car that are interchangerable, now that would be interesting...
     
  17. Clem_Dye

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    I recall reading something earlier this week in the Daily Telegraph (I believe) that stated that the amount of CO2 generated making an EV battery exceeds the total CO2 emissions made by the average diesel or petrol-powered car over its lifetime. No idea if that's true, but if it is, it pretty much makes a nonsense of the claim that EVs reduce pollution/global warming .....

    Clem
     
  18. AdrianMills

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    No, it's not true.
     
  19. DOBLY

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    The title of this thread is still misleading. Surely it should read diesel-only and petrol-only?
    In the short to medium term, more cars will be hybrids until battery (or fuel cell) technology has evolved so that range and cost issues are no longer considerations to the average Joe or Josephine in the street.
     
  20. IronGiant

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    The title matches the headlines quoted, so I'll leave it for now.
     
  21. McPhee

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    It's the Telegraph.

    It's a story about Electric Vehicles.

    It's going to be a badly researched mess full of half-truths that support their (seemingly) anti-EV agenda.

    Try this link:

    https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...ggdMAA&usg=AFQjCNHmKq8EmtkcO2lHbwUmkKJbKgz04A

    Concawe are a research group set up and funded by European Refining Industry.

    They conclude that under the current European average fuel mix, EVs break even at 45k-65k miles (depending on the class of car). Emissions from electricity production are the most significant contributor to lifetime EV emissions. The fuel mix is getting cleaner all the time, so the break-even point is getting lower. While all-wind is implausible, it does show how low the potential floor can be.

    So yes, EVs can be more polluting. If they're widely written off with low mileage, or are driven in a country that's heavily dependent on high-pollution fuels for electricity production, they will be worse than combustion vehicles overall.

    It's also [somewhat selfishly] worth considering the effect of EVs on localised pollution. The EV model would result in a significant improvement in air quality. To me, that's just as important. Significantly lower pollution at ground level. Lower pollution in the UK overall.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2017
  22. Clem_Dye

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    Don't shoot the messenger here, I only reported what I'd seen. For every claim there's a counter-claim out there, whatever the topic. Somewhere between both poles of any argument is the actual truth, in my experience.

    Clem
     
  23. McPhee

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    Not trying to shoot anyone. I was simply attempting to give some clarity on the subject.

    The Telegraph have time and again demonstrated that they're far from impartial on the subject. They will, with some regularity, misrepresent their own sources with sensational headlines. The truth and the detail is either near the end of the article, or absent altogether. With the detail and the source hidden behind a paywall, a lot of people only ever see the (sensational) headline.

    There is indeed some consensus, and some debate, on the matter of EVs and emissions. The question isn't "Are they cleaner than fossil fuel powered vehicles?". It's "How much cleaner are they?".
     
  24. EarthRod

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    Also, "How much pollution is being transferred from running 'clean' EVs to the main power stations?"
     
  25. IronGiant

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    Probably a difficult one to accurately quantify, but one that can only improve as we clean them up and use renewables. But then you can ask how much pollution is produced making a solar panel or a turbine. We have zero emissions at the point of use, which is a good thing for inner city pollution. So long as we use fossil fuels in Power Stations we aren't going to be able to do much about CO2, but presumably burning Gas in a Power Station is going to be better for other pollutants than diesel or petrol in vehicles.

    One thing I know nothing about is how efficient is the energy conversion "to the wheels" from the National Grid to an EV, compared with from the oil field to an ICE.
     
  26. EarthRod

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    Well, as long as the manufacturers find a way to increase the range of the cheaper EVs to over 200 miles then I'm in.

    The fact that an EV mileage is equivalent to about 120mpg is a good draw as far as I'm concerned. Beats a diesel hands down.

    :D
     
  27. Frostytouch

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    This information is factual data from Imperial College that answers that very question.....

    A report produced by Imperial College London, partnering with energy company Drax, shows that EV emissions - produced by electricity generation in power stations that is then transferred to EVs when charging - fell by 10% compared with last year, and is up to a third of what it was five years ago.

    The carbon intensity (grams per kilometre) of EVs has dramatically decreased. For example, the Tesla Model S fell from 124g/km in winter 2012 to 74g/km in winter 2016 and 41g/km today. EVs are generally less efficient in winter, so the real average lies somewhere between the last two figures.
     
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  28. IronGiant

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    Thanks. Well under our second car which is 237g/km then :)
     
  29. gangzoom

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    For me its pretty am obvious, would you like to sit on traffic behind a diesel breathing in those lovely fumes or behind an EV whith no tail pipe emissions?
     
  30. Clem_Dye

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    In an ideal world, EV, obviously, but getting to that brave new world will take time.

    Clem
     

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