New diesel and petrol vehicles to be banned from 2040 in UK

Discussion in 'Hybrid, PHEV & EV Electric Cars Forum' started by Stuart Wright, Jul 26, 2017.

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  1. Clem_Dye

    Clem_Dye
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    Ruddy great wind turbines really are an eyesore, wherever they turn up. They seem to blight everywhere where I've seen them. In any event, I thought that the push was now for offshore wind farms, rather than onshore? I think that solar roof tiles are definitely a good idea, but won't suit everywhere and aren't cheap.

    Domestic power generation using solar technology could certainly play a part, but even now it's not cheap. If this is going to ever be considered as a possible alternative to building more power stations then it will need some heavy subsidies and relaxation of planning rules. When I thought about installing solar panels (not tiles, admittedly) a couple of years ago I checked with my local council who told me that on my property, I'd need to apply for planning permission. I don't know how efficient solar tiles are compared to panels, assuming that you have a roof with the correct aspect, but again I'm not sure if they'd fall foul of planning restrictions.

    Not having power stations around that burn fossil fuels sounds like a great idea in theory, as does not having to rely on the nuclear alternative, but I don't think that we'll ever be in a situation where we don't need power stations. I'd love to be off-grid, but it'll never happen.

    Clem
     
  2. Clem_Dye

    Clem_Dye
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    The trouble here is that nothing is ideal in terms of generating power. Coal is dirty, I agree, and burning gas isn't that clever either. The geography of the UK doesn't lend itself to schemes liked pumped hydro. Sure, there are places in Scotland and Wales that would probably work, but then will need miles of cabling to get the juice somewhere useful. I do agree that we should all be reducing our impact, but I think that in reality all we do is move things around. We may well indeed be able to reduce the number of power stations that we need using renewables, but could well end-up making a whole lot more environmental damage in the manufacture of batteries, for example, which require lots of resources.

    Clem
     
  3. DOBLY

    DOBLY
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    All new house should be required to produce their own power needs, as well as be very, very energy efficient. If you were designing a new-build house now, why wouldn't you have a super-insulated roof that collected free solar energy? Just repeating the past isn't the way forward.
    And why wouldn't you use the roof of the garage to help power an EV / hybrid vehicle?
    I like Tesla's joined-up thinking - the acquisition of SolarCity (solar roof tiles) to go with the PowerWall2 and their cars.
    For the majority, hybrid cars will be the way forward for the next 20+ years - electrical assistance to reduce fuel consumption, paving the way towards reducing our dependency on fossil fuels (especially the recent misguided mass-flirtation with diesel) ...
     
  4. Delvey

    Delvey
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    Completely different country to the UK though. In many senses. But they have shown it can work.
     
  5. Delvey

    Delvey
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    Elon Musks idea for solar panel roof tiles are that thy will be cheaper than ordinary roof tiles. Along way to go but if it does happen, then there would be no reason not to have solar roof tiles.
    As someone else pointed out, the problem with this country is long term planning. The French run our power stations, making electricity cheaper in France. The Germans run our railways (Arriva for example) so in Germany they can have cheaper rail fares with decent rolling stock.
    And Norway. When oil and gas was discovered in the north sea and surrounding areas, what did the UK do? Used it short term. The Norwegians basically gave it to the Crown. Whom made some very good investments.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/special-reports/how-to-invest-likenorways-700bn-oil-fund/amp/
     
  6. DOBLY

    DOBLY
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    Not quite.
    What he said was that a solar roof would be cheaper than having a replacement (conventional) roof and buying power from the usual sources.
    Therefore, he is admitting that in the short term it will cost more, but over the medium to long term you will be better off.
    As with everything Tesla does, you need to be in a position where you are able to splash out in order to reap the benefits over time.
     
  7. Sonic67

    Sonic67
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    To replace a typical power station requires about 300 wind turbines working flat out or about 500 operating normally. All those turbines require infrastructure. They need to be serviced so they need a road to them. They need power to be taken from them so that means cables and substations. Most people see a few wind turbines and think "aah how wonderful." Would you think the same if the hillside had 500 wind turbines, with roads and pylons?
     
  8. Sonic67

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    As I understand it, to change to fully electric cars requires anything from 3 to 9 new nuclear power stations. Just one is costing well, a lot.

    BBC World Service - More or Less, What is the most expensive object ever built?

    EDF have calculated the building costs of Hinkley Point, a brand new nuclear power station in the UK, will amount to £18 billion.

    Would that make it the most expensive 'object' ever built? Ed Davey and Tim Harford compare this with the Great Pyramid of Giza, the Oakland Bay bridge, the Grand Mosque in Mecca, the Large Hadron Collider and Hong Kong Airport.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2017
  9. gangzoom

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    Some of the comments here really does make me sad, am not sure why people cannot look beyond what we have now and try to imagine a better way to generate power rather than a nuclear kettle - which is all a nuclear power stations is, just another way to turn water into steam.

    Anyone who doubts the impact of renewables should look at what Germany has achieved. Germany isn't much sunnier than the UK, and I would guess alot less windy than Scotland. And I don't think anyone would think Germany has less power consumption than the UK.

    As of August 2017, solar and wind is making up of over 1/3 of electricity generation every day on average and some days 80% of power is generated by wind/solar, with the overall effect of Germany been a net energy exporter most days because they generate more electricity that can be consumed!!

    This hasn't happened by accident, Germany is on a drive to phase out nuclear power by 2025, just as the UK government is about to waste billions building one.

    Anyone who's been to Scotland will realise the massive potential wind resources UK has access to, combined with all the off shore experience already present, if the UK government had the vision the country could become the world leader on developing off shore wind power.

    Germany's Renewable Sources Provide 85% Of Energy For The First Time | HuffPost UK
    Germany’s energy consumption and power mix in charts

    Electricity production in Germany | Energy Charts
     
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  10. outoftheknow

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    TBF offshore wind farms were all set to take over 15 years ago but the government can't overcome some obstacles. You can't have them off Liverpool as it is in a busy shipping area. Over here there are the last examples if the lesser spotted puffy fish. Over there is in my view and I paid for my shoreside house with a view of the sea.......

    And so on

    People will always be the problem and sometimes will be able to solve the problems they create. The decision to go ahead with Hinkley Point was a culmination of looking at other actual options that they could actually go ahead with.

    Of course solar and wind could go all over the place and provide heaps of power. Why should Scotland with natural beauty have 2,000 windmills either on land or offshore? Why can't they go in and off the Southern Counties?

    It isn't as easy as saying so and so should happen. People nowadays want all sorts of things as long as there are zero impacts on their life bubble. That bubble extends as far as they live work and play and heaven help anyone suggesting they take a bit of a hit for the common good.
     
  11. gangzoom

    gangzoom
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    Ofcourse you have to have the determination to over come obstacles, but if Germany can manage why cannot the UK?
     
  12. Alan CD

    Alan CD
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    According to Wikipedia:

    In 2013 coal made up about 45% of Germany's electricity production.

    German coal-fired power plants are being designed and modified so they can be increasingly flexible to support the fluctuations resulting from increased renewable energy.
     
  13. gangzoom

    gangzoom
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    From the same Wikipedia post, Germany is on track to reach their renewable energy target of 35% a few years early ;)


    In September 2010, the German government announced a new aggressive energy policy with the following targets:[50]

    • Reducing CO2 emissions 40% below 1990 levels by 2020 and 80% below 1990 levels by 2050
    • Increasing the relative share of renewable energy in gross energy consumption to 18% by 2020, 30% by 2030 and 60% by 2050
    • Increasing the relative share of renewable energy in gross electrical consumption to 35% by 2020 and 80% by 2050
    • Increasing the national energy efficiency by cutting electrical consumption 50% below 2008 levels by 2050
     
  14. Squiffy

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    Because Scotland has more wind?

    Unless we can get Sturgeon and Salmond to move down south, we will never have as much wind.
     
  15. Sonic67

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    I know how power is generated. I used to be a sparky. I was using nuclear power as an example as it's a standard reference like double decker buses or an area the size of Wales. We could have thousands of windmills if you want.

    Either way there's going to be a hit.

    If we ditch all fossil fuels then we will need far more electricity.

    Even if we had millions of windmills we will need tons of copper and steel all over the country to distribute the extra electricity. You don't think that will have an impact?

    Then there's the increase of chemicals in batteries on the environment.

    Then as far as I am aware any chance of having electrically powered trucks isn't going to happen.

    We will ditch some problems and increase others.
     
  16. gangzoom

    gangzoom
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    Tesla Semi | Electrek
     
  17. Sonic67

    Sonic67
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    Shall we wait and see how practical it is? Range? Load space? Weight it can carry? I wonder as we have large trucks. If it's a heavy truck with lots of heavy batteries and then carries a heavy load will it be too heavy for bridges?
     
  18. Delvey

    Delvey
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    One of the lecturers at my university is researching how to make diesels more efficient just from the injectors.
    He reckons currently, to power a 35 tonne HGV with an electric battery the same range as the diesel equivalent will take 30 tonne of batteries. Leaving only 5 tonne for cargo. Not commercially viable.
     
  19. Alan CD

    Alan CD
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    The difference between current reality and future political targets is remarkable, despite use of the word 'aggressive'.

    I much prefer the reality: coal power stations are extensively used in Germany.
     
  20. outoftheknow

    outoftheknow
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    And currently hydrogen ICE EV will do the job economically and still reduce emissions overall. Still need to make hydrogen and use electricity to do that but at least that can be off peak rather than everybody plugging in at 6pm.
     
  21. Clem_Dye

    Clem_Dye
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    The fundamental issue with doing anything in the UK is that all governments, of whatever political colour, only ever take short-term views on anything. Our past is littered with crass decisions that are now coming back to bite us. The Beeching rail cuts in the 1960s are an example. The cost of re-opening some lines that are now badly needed to reduce road congestion is now so prohibitive that it will never happen, yet rail is a great way to move people and freight. Closing our coal mines is another example. It's all very well expecting people to take a positive view on things, but this country just can't do it. We spend far too long debating anything, so by the time a decision is finally reached it's no longer valid.

    If we were able to start afresh, then of course we could make things better. All houses would have solar tiles on their roofs, rainwater collection schemes, and so forth. We'd live in a clean, locally generated electricity-driven nirvana -- the 1960s was supposed to be the golden age of electricity, if anyone remembers. The trouble is, we don't live in such a world, and retrofitting the technology that we need for the bold, EV-filled future that we're supposedly heading towards guarantees that it will be a mess. Countries like Germany have a different mindset to we British. For some reason, we seem to try and live in our own pasts, rather than looking forward. But even if we do try and look the other way, our 'framework' hinders us. Ultimately, it all comes down to money and our wills to do something. However, the money isn't there -- the current Government is busy back-tracking on commitments to electrify parts of the rail network up here in the North of England, the NHS is in serious trouble, but if taxes were bumped-up to try and address these issues they'd be uproar.

    The UK was once a great country. Victorian Britain was its finest period. Now, we're just a washed-up, third-world lump sitting in the North Sea. If you want that nirvana, then you'll need to up-sticks and head for somewhere like Norway or Germany. I can't see anything improving here, much as I'd like it to.


    Clem
     
  22. Alan CD

    Alan CD
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    Bearing in mind the British economy is the fifth-largest economy in the world.

    ...But don't let that stop you having a good rant.

    :)
     
  23. Delvey

    Delvey
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    Yet the infrastructures is rubbish.
    Trains from the 80s still.
    NHS at the brink
    Prisons overflowing
    The French running our power stations.
    Being the fifth biggest economy means nothing when the country is on its arse
     
  24. Clem_Dye

    Clem_Dye
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    I wasn't ranting, far from it, just stating the obvious as I see it. Nearly 60 years as a UK resident gives me what I believe to be a valid perspective on things, based on personal experiences and observations. Sure, it's not everyone's view, and the grass will always be greener elsewhere, but there are now just too many examples of short-term thinking in this country that [will] screw things up in the longer term, be it from house building, to health to transport. I hope that I'm wrong, but I think that the push to EV, the subject of this thread, will crash and burn in exactly the same way as so many other things do in this country, but it will still be hailed as a success, nevertheless. Actually, there you are: one thing that we are good at in this country -- political spin!

    Clem
     
  25. Bl4ckGryph0n

    Bl4ckGryph0n
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    Just move to the beautiful south, all will seem well. The streets are paved with gold :) And most definitely no 80s trains on my line into london, nor NHS at breaking point etc. I choose to live here and have lived in 17 countries.

    In my experience; if you think it's sh*t here, just wait until you see other countries, it's even worse.
     
  26. Clem_Dye

    Clem_Dye
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    I lived in the south of the UK for most of my life, and the picture that you paint doesn't gel with my experiences, for sure. I still have flashbacks to my days commuting on Greater Anglia/Abellio/whatever they're called trains into Liverpool Street! Shudder. As I said earlier, the grass will always be greener elsewhere. I've also done some stints abroad, and Swiss railways take a lot of beating, at least when I used them. Where I live now, things are generally OK, but car-based pollution is a problem, and rail services are far from stellar. I certainly wouldn't live in the south of the UK now though, however much I was offered!

    Clem
     
  27. Alan CD

    Alan CD
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    Sure, that is one way to look at it. I view it differently - what we are seeing in our lifetimes is the change from the UK being a world power with many colonies overseas, powerful armed forces, industrial might etc to a more compact UK.

    The days of Britannia Rules The Waves have long gone and we have successfully met the challenge of truncation without too much hardship. In other words the country has not been wasted or destroyed during the process.

    Two world wars hastened the change as did the cold war, but we are still going and surviving very well.

    Chin up :thumbsup:
     
  28. Delvey

    Delvey
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    Complete bull crap.
     
  29. Squiffy

    Squiffy
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    What a thoughtful and insightful post. Well done.

    So you think we still rule the waves?
     
  30. Delvey

    Delvey
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    No. But this thread is about motoring. So I'll leave it at that.
     

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