New amps underpowered?

AML

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So what's happening with these new amps coming out these days?

I'm using an Onkyo amp from 5 years ago (TX SA 805) it cost me ¥100.000 (which is about a grand). And it outputs 180watts.

I've decided to upgrade to a newer amp and looked at all the jp brands.

Onkyo, Yamaha, denon, pioneer, marantz.

And they ALL seem so underpowered!

Only the ones costing twice as much as mine have 180watts or higher.

The ones priced in the same range as mine are all much lower. (120w/140w)

Sure they all use QDEO/HQV and upscale to 4k (which is why I want one) but why the drop in power?

To get a new updated amp that has the same power as my 5 year old amp I need to spend twice as much! :rolleyes:

(I'm just looking at jp brands since I live there)

Is it the same in the Uk?
 
The 180 watt rating is in relation to an impedance of 6 ohms. You need to compare the other amps while ensuring you use figures in relation to a 6 ohms impedance or use a rating for the Onkyo that uses the same impedance for the ratings as the other amps.

Why do you need 180 watts? Wattage is no reflection of quality or loudness (the sensitivity of your speakers determines loudness). Are your speakers exceptionally hard to drive or do you have an inordinately large listening room?

An amp is only underpowered if it cannot drive the speakers attached to it. A constant 180 watts would blow the drive units of most speakers. It is very unlikely that you'll ever need to crank the amp all the way up and use 180 watts without causing you or your speakers damage.

I can direct you to amps that have less than a third of the power of your amp, but cost considerably more. Maybe stop looking at the wattage altogether whilst looking for a new amp. It is very unlikely that any amp currently available will not power your speakers and cannot fathom why you'd need 180 watts?

If you insist you need 180 watts then maybe Onkyo's current version of your amp will meet your requirements?
http://www.uk.onkyo.com/en/products/tx-nr818-80265.html?tab=Stage


I'd ultimately suggest you forget about wattage, decide upon a budget and then go listen to what is on offer for that money. How an amp sounds is far more important than its wattage ;)
 
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I realize wattage isn't the only deciding factor, I'm just ****** off that 5 years ago I could get a 180watt amp for 1000, and now to get an equal amp I have to spend twice as much.

My living room is large and I need the power. My speakers are 200 watts, and even though I never have it set at its max, I don't like downgrading to a lesser amp.

I will most likely get the new onkyo TX NR 1010 (jp model number) as it has the same specs as mine but has the newer updated boards.

Im just not happy I have to pay twice as much for it......

If you ask me, the only reason there's a dip in power output is because there's this sudden demand for "greener" equipment that uses less power and is therefore better for the environment and lessens our carbon footprint.

Don't make me lol...
 
What you are perceiving/describing just isn't the case.

Onkyo's current TXNR818 is this years version of your current amp and has exactly the same power rating, it also costs about the same as your amp cost you when you bought it. This isn't restricted to Onkyo and every manufacturers replacement models roughly match the amp they are replacing in terms of their power. Prices are also roughly the same year in and year out. There is no green conspiracy in relation to wattage and power isn't being rationed or being sold for more than it was previously.

The TXNR1010 isn't the equivalent of you amp and is a higher end product sold here in the UK for twice the price of the TXNR818. The TXNR818 is equivalent to your present amp. Onkyo market all their products globally and do not have models that are exclusive to Japan. Obviously if you want to buy the next model up from where you are now then you will have to pay more than you paid for your current amp!
 
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What you are perceiving/describing just isn't the case.

Onkyo's current TXNR818 is this years version of your current amp and has exactly the same power rating, it also costs about the same as your amp cost you when you bought it. This isn't restricted to Onkyo and every manufacturers replacement models roughly match the amp they are replacing in terms of their power. Prices are also roughly the same year in and year out. There is no green conspiracy in relation to wattage and power isn't being rationed or being sold for more than it was previously.

Sorry but in Japan (where I live) the 818 is "only" 145w

And the more expensive 1010 is now the same 180w as my older 805.

It could just be a jp thing. Maybe I should import the EU 818....

On another note, I've gone totally off JP blu ray players too and will instead be getting an oppo 93.

I think one of the reasons I came to Japan is no longer true. Time to move on i think :D
 
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Sorry but in Japan (where I live) the 818 is "only" 145w

And the more expensive 1010 is now the same 180w as my older 805.

It could just be a jp thing. Maybe I should import the EU 818....

On another note, I've gone totally off JP blu ray players too and will instead be getting an oppo 93.

I think one of the reasons I came to Japan is no longer true. Time to move on i think :D

As I've said, look at the impedance. What impedance in ohms is the power rating given at?

The TXNR1010 is marketed as a higher grade product, one step up from the 8xx models. It is not the equivalent replacement model for your amp. Its higher price is dictated by it being a higher placed product.

I believe OPPO are actually made in China so not sure why you think they are made better than products made in Japan?
 
Well, after looking at the jp onkyo site, it says the 818 offers dynamic power at 3, 4, and 8ohms (300w, 250w, and 140w respectively)

So if I'm using 6ohm speakers I suppose it will be around 180w?

If that's the case then it should be enough. (but I would need to check my speakers)

I wouldn't say Im a noob with AV eqment but at the same time I never really looked that deeply into specs.


As for oppo, after looking at the specs it just seems like jp makers don't really put the same effort into choosing what they put into their players.

To be honest the average Japanese person I've met is pretty clueless when it comes to av equipment. And while the Koreans and chinese are advancing things like screen technology, the jp are just sitting on their hands watching the world go by.

I have this discussion all the time with people I know that work at companies like NEC. They are even frustrated that they can't come up with original ideas (like the I phone) and they are always playing catch up with the rest of the world.

Anyway, that's a story for another day.

*Edit* Oh, and most jp products are made in china too these days. Hardly anything is made in Japan anymore...

As long as they have proper quality controll it shouldnt matter where something is made.
 
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Well, after looking at the jp onkyo site, it says the 818 offers dynamic power at 3, 4, and 8ohms (300w, 250w, and 140w respectively)

So if I'm using 6ohm speakers I suppose it will be around 180w?

If that's the case then it should be enough.

I wouldn't say Im a noob with AV eqment but at the same time I never really looked that deeply into specs.

No, not dynamic power, constant power. What was the impedance stated where it states 145 watts for the main power. It will look something like this: 180 W/Ch (6 Ω, 1 kHz, 1% THD, 1 Channel Driven, IEC). That being the rated power for the TXNR818 @ 6 ohm (6 Ω). A higher impedance put upon the amp will result in a lower figure so the 145 watts may relate to the power rating @ 8 ohms? The altual wattage you get depends on the impedance imposed upon the amp by your speakers, but even then, it isn't necessarily a good thing to have low impedance speakers. Dynamic power is no indication of constant power and will always be higher than the constant power rating.
 
No, not dynamic power, constant power. What was the impedance stated where it states 145 watts for the main power. It will look something like this: 180 W/Ch (6 Ω, 1 kHz, 1% THD, 1 Channel Driven, IEC). That being the rated power for the TXNR818 @ 6 ohm (6 Ω). A higher impedance put upon the amp will result in a lower figure so the 145 watts may relate to the power rating @ 8 ohms? The altual wattage you get depends on the impedance imposed upon the amp by your speakers, but even then, it isn't necessarily a good thing to have low impedance speakers. Dynamic power is no indication of constant power and will always be higher than the constant power rating.

The jp site states that constant power is indeed 145w @ 6 ohms for the 818

ƒI[ƒfƒBƒI&ƒrƒWƒ…ƒAƒ‹»•iî•ñFAVƒAƒ“ƒv„TX-NR818(B)

So is that less than the UKs 818?
 
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Translation for anyone else wanting to read the Japanese specs:

Google Translate

I can only suggest it has to do with the differences between UK mains electricity voltage and the voltage in Japan? I know many US models also have different specs to those same models released in the EU. Where did you purchase your 805?
 
More importantly, what speakers are you using? It may be the case that you do not need 180 watts, in fact it is more than likely the case. Shopping and using wattage as the determining factor is limiting your choice considerably, maybe even making it so that you ignore better sounding products in favour of more powerful options?
 
I think the quoted power differences are due to different testing methods. The EU has different requirements to the USA/rest of the world.

Haven't a clue what the differneces are though?
 
My 805 is Japanese (bought here) I bought It because I wanted to drive my 200w speakers.
As you said, the wattage isn't all that important at the end of the day, but I do feel ripped off here.

It would seem in Japan they decided to lower the wattage of the 805s range and introduce a new midd-upper range amp (the 1010) with the 180 watts.
There is one more model, the 5010, that does 200w. What the older 905 does. But the 5010 costs 3 times as much...
 
My 805 is Japanese (bought here) I bought because I wanted to drive my 200w speakers.
As you said, the wattage isn't all that important at the end of the day, but I do feel ripped off here.

It would seem in Japan they decided to lower the wattage of the 805s range and introduce a new midd-upper range amp with the 180 watts. There is one more model, the 5010, that does 200w. What the older 905 does. But the 5010 costs 3 times as much...

the 200 watt rating of your speakers isn't a requirement and is given as guidance not to exceed that amount. They probably only need a minimum of 30 or 40 watts to drive them :)

A I already stated, Onkyo market the same amps here and the models you mention are not exclusive to Japan. They did not introduce intimidate models there to try hoodwink people. The Onkyo TX-NR5010 is also available here and is also three times the price of the TXNR818 or one third more than the TXNR1010. The TXNR5010 is rated with an output of 220 W/Ch (6 O, 1 kHz, 1% THD, 1 Channel Driven, IEC); 280 W/Ch (6 O, 1 kHz, 1 Channel here in the UK. The TXNR1010 is the equivalent of the 905 and costs about the same. Its power rating is also comparable. It is just the way they name their products that has changes. They've dropped quite a few intimidate models and renamed a few top end products.

I'll do you a swop. You can have my taxes and I'll make do with your lower power ratings :)
 
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the 200 watt rating of your speakers isn't a requirement and is given as guidance not to exceed that amount. They probably only need a minimum of 30 or 40 watts to drive them :)

A I already stated, Onkyo market the same amps here and the models you mention are not exclusive to Japan. They did not introduce intimidate models there to try hoodwink people. The Onkyo TX-NR5010 is also available here and is also three times the price of the TXNR818 or one third more than the TXNR1010. The TXNR5010 is rated with an output of 220 W/Ch (6 O, 1 kHz, 1% THD, 1 Channel Driven, IEC); 280 W/Ch (6 O, 1 kHz, 1 Channel here in the UK.

It would seem they did lower the wattage of jp amps tho to be honest.

Not sure why.

And my speakers have a peak of 400watts. So isnt 200w what I should be driving them at? They arent small bookshelfs, rather, large floor standing tall boys. Anyway, not too important.

I'll probably end up getting the 1010 so that it feels like an actual upgrade to my 805 :)


Oh, and as for Yamaha, pioneer, denon, marantz. Even worse than the onkyos in terms of wattage. (in jp)
Some of those amps in the same price range were only 120w. Very disappointing.
 
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It would seem they did lower the wattage of jp amps tho to be honest.

Not sure why.

And my speakers have a peak of 400watts. So isnt 200w what I should be driving them at? Anyway, not too important.

I'll probably end up getting the 1010 so that it feels like an actual upgrade to my 805 :)

Sory, I think you are elaborating a little now. Your speakers do not require 200 watts of power, if they did then the amps you are looking at are no where near powerful enough and what you are attempting to power if the Rolling Stones' PA :D I'm also elaborating :D

What speakers are they?
 
Sory, I think you are elaborating a little now. Your speakers do not require 200 watts of power, if they did then the amps you are looking at are no where near powerful enough and what you are attempting to power if the Rolling Stones' PA :D I'm also elaborating :D

What speakers are they?

They are custom made. Not a brand. A friend made them. Really nice.


I told him I wanted "poweerrrrrrr" (best Jeremy clarckson impersonation:D)
 
They are custom made. Not a brand. A friend made them. Rally nice.


I told him I wanted "poweerrrrrrr" (best Jeremy clarckson impersonation:D)

So what impedance are they and do you know their sensitivity? I guess it would be hard to determine the sensitivity if custom made, but this generally determine how hard it is to drive them and gives you an indication of the kind of SPL / watt they can generate at a measured distance of 1m. The higher the sensitivity, the easier they are to drive and the more volume per watt they produce.

Jeremy Clarkson isn't alowed to have an amplifitier because of health and safety regulations here in the UK. :nono:
 
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So what impedance are they and do you know their sensitivity? I guess it would be hard to determine the sensitivity if custom made, but this generally determine how hard it is to drive them and gives you an indication of the kind of SPL / watt they can generate at a measured distance of 1m. The higher the sensitivity, the easier they are to drive and the more volume per watt they produce.

Jeramy Clarkson isn't alowed to have a amplifitier because of health and safety regulations here in the UK. :nono:

I honestly don't know the details. But after I got them he recommended the onkyo 805 since (within that price range) it was the most powerful. They might be on par with something like the Yamaha Soavos. (I know they are only rated at 50w but have a high peak)

So I intend to get a new one that has the same level of wattage. Or maybe I should get the 5010 :D

What EU makers would you recommend if not an onkyo? (same sort of specs)
 
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I honestly don't know the details. But after I got them he recommended the onkyo 805 since (within that price range) it was the most powerful.

So I intend to get a new one that has the same level of wattage. Or maybe I should get the 5010 :D

What EU makers would you recommend if not an onkyo? (same sort of specs)

I'm afraid that if you want a UK amp then you are talking more money for less wattage. Our AV manufacturers are all more associated with audiophile stereo products than their AV products and as such market themselves at the higher niche end of the market.

Youe best bet is to look at japanes concerns such as Denon, Yamaha, Onkyo and Sony. These makers rule the roost as far as mass produced consumer AV amps are concerned.

An Arcam AVR360 would set you back nearly doble the price of an Onkyo TXNR818, but only be rated 90 watts. They sound a lot better than most in terms of their musical abilities though.
 
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I'm afraid that if you want a UK amp then you are talking more money for less wattage. Our AV manufacturers are all more associated with audiophile stereo products than their AV products and as such market themselves at the higher niche end of the market.

Youe best bet is to look at japanes concerns such as Denon, Yamaha, Onkyo and Sony. These three rule the roost as far as mass produced consumer AV amps are concerned.

An Arcam AVR360 would set you back nearly doble the price of an Onkyo TXNR818, but only be rated 90 watts. They sound a lot better than most in terms of their musical abilities though.

Yea I know there's a big difference between AV and Music amps.

And as you pointed out, wattage isn't all that important.

I always get jp products because I happen to live here. And for blu rays (the main thing for me) the onkyos seem to be favorites.

I'm not much of an audiophile, just enjoy a good blu ray with Dts MA and lots of 'sploshuns! :D
 
Yea I know there's a big difference between AV and Music amps.

And as you pointed out, wattage isn't all that important.

I always get jp products because I happen to live here. And for blu rays (the main thing for me) the onkyos seem to be favorites.

I'm not much of an audiophile, just enjoy a good blu ray with Dts MA and lots of 'sploshuns! :D

If the speakers are hard to drive then maybe it is time to replace them as well asthe amp? Buy the cheaper TXNR818 and use the money you save from not purchasing the higher end Onkyo's on more relaxed speakers. You can get speakers that need very little power to go very loud indeed. The Japaness don't seem to be very good with speakers though and the ones that are of any note here tend to be either made by UK or Danish companies. I'd hazzard that they are actually built and made in Asia though?
 
Yea the jp speakers don't seem overly popular here either.

Top sellers tend to be: Dali, Kef, Fostex, Jbl, Tangent, klipsch and so on.

I might change up and see how it goes. I've come into some cash, so I can pretty much change my whole set up.

I just bought Toshibas 4k 55" Xs5
I want an amp or player that can upscale to 4k

Not much other content out there right now...
 
Another thing to do is check the power supply value for both your current amp and the new one you are looking at as this will give a more accurate figure for the total power output they will give. If the power supplies are around the same size then their continuous power output will be largely the same no matter what the claimed power per channel is.
 
Not much other content out there right now...

There's not anything that would be able to play 4K content either :D

I've heard rumours that 4K will not be the next big thing and it will more likely be 8K by the time they develop a medium by which to distribute content?

You may be better looking at a standalone video processor/scaler if serious about the PQ? Scalers incorporated into AV amps aren't that accomplished and you've spent a lot of money on the TV to be using a cheap scaler with.
 
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