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Netflix re-encoding streams to optimise bit rates

TellyTel

Distinguished Member
So sounds like the bitrates are not fixed per title but will change depending on scene. Not worried providing the quality is not effected.
 

grahamlthompson

In memoriam
II's VBR - Variable bit rate. All broadasters do this. eg Freeview statmux,, share the available bandwidth on a mux according according to content with all the channels in the mux.
 

TellyTel

Distinguished Member
II's VBR - Variable bit rate. All broadasters do this. eg Freeview statmux,, share the available bandwidth on a mux according according to content with all the channels in the mux.

Just like a UHD disc then, guess it makes sense to have a variable bitrate for streaming.
 

youngsyp

Distinguished Member
II's VBR - Variable bit rate. All broadasters do this.
Indeed. But why the article couldn't just state this, instead of trying to downplay what Netflix are doing, in attempt to cause descent, I don't know. Flatpanels are rapidly losing credibility for me.

They even quote the bitrates Apple use in the article but, they too use VBR, as do Disney+. Although, granted these two still use way more bandwidth than Netflix will. I saw 47Mb/s when watching a Disney+ DV/ DA movie recently.

Paul
 
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lgans316

Distinguished Member
Indeed. But why the article couldn't just state this, instead of trying to downplay what Netflix are doing, in attempt to cause descent, I don't know. Flatpanels are rapidly losing credibility for me.

They even quote the bitrates Apple use in the article but, they too use VBR, as do Disney+. Although, granted these two still use way more bandwidth than Netflix will. I saw 47Mb/s when watching a Disney+ DV/ DA movie recently.

Paul

I find it hard to believe that you saw 47 Mbps on D+. Indicative peak bit rate is reportedly capped at 28-29 Mbps.

Personally I like current Netflix approach of fixed 15 Mbps over variable bit rate. At least the compression will hold up.

On FireTV stick with Dev Tools HUD ON, the max I saw was 28 Mbps. If you can let me know the film name I will check again.

I hope the new approach doesn't end up in macroblocking as you still a healthy bit rate for 4K HDR content.
 

youngsyp

Distinguished Member
I find it hard to believe that you saw 47 Mbps on D+. Indicative peak bit rate is reportedly capped at 28-29 Mbps.
Yes, you've mentioned that but, it doesn't change the fact that's what I saw. :D

Out of interest, where are you seeing these figures published?

Paul
 
D

Deleted member 765458

Guest
Would be better if before and after programs were made available, for real world examples. Not just static scenes.
 

lgans316

Distinguished Member
Yes, you've mentioned that but, it doesn't change the fact that's what I saw. :D

Out of interest, where are you seeing these figures published?

Paul

Credits: samlop10 and pghflyer at Blu-ray forums:

I would agree with Disney+ as I have never seen 28+ Mbps on FireTV Dev Tools HUD. Please let me know which film was guzzling 48 Mbps. I am eager to find it out.

Also heard that Apple are limiting peak bit rates to 15 Mbps on non-ATV boxes and the apps on TVs. Not sure if this true. I will check this on FireTV again most likely tonight.

Order Best to Worst (Bitrate of Video File Primary, Bitrate of Audio File Secondary) & Info on General Platform Support

#1 Apple TV (iTunes Movies) - HDR10, Dolby Vision, & Dolby Atmos
Video: Average: 25 Mbps; Peak: 31 Mbps
Audio: 770 Kbps
Find and watch movies with 4K, HDR, Dolby Vision, or Dolby Atmos

Apple TV Plus - HDR10, Dolby Vision, & Dolby Atmos
Video: Average: 41 Mbps; Peak: Unknown
Audio: Unknown
Apple TV+

#2 MoviesAnywhere - HDR10, Dolby Vision, & Dolby Atmos
Video: Average: 25 Mbps; Peak: 32 Mbps
Audio: 640 Kbps
https://help.moviesanywhere.com/hc/e...rt-4K-and-HDR-

#3 Disney Plus - HDR10, Dolby Vision, & Dolby Atmos
Video: Average: 17 Mbps; Peak: 29 Mbps
Audio: 770 Kbps
https://help.disneyplus.com/csp?id=c...0cf158bf961913

#4 Netflix - HDR10, Dolby Vision, & Dolby Atmos
Video: Average: 17 Mbps; Peak: 25 Mbps
Audio: 770 Kbps
How to stream Netflix in Ultra HD

-----------------------Lower Tier Video/ Audio--------------------------------------------

#5 Vudu - HDR10, Dolby Vision, & Dolby Atmos
Video: Average: 14 Mbps; Peak: 17 Mbps
Audio: 580 Kbps
VUDU UHD - 4K, Dolby Vision, Dolby Atmos

#6 Amazon Prime - HDR10, HDR10+, Dolby Vision, & Dolby Atmos
Video: Average: 10 Mbps; Peak: 13 Mbps
Audio: 190 Kbps
https://www.amazon.com/b?ie=UTF8&node=11598814011

#7 FandangoNow - IMAX Enhanced, HDR10, NO Dolby Vision, NO Dolby Atmos
Video: 10-20Mb/s (anecdotal)
Audio: Unknown
FandangoNOW
IMAX Enhanced: Unleash the power of IMAX at home

#8 Google Play - HDR10, NO Dolby Vision, NO Dolby Atmos
Video: 12-15Mb/s (anecdotal)
Audio: Unknown
https://support.google.com/googlepla.../7184994?hl=en

#9 HBONow - *NONE*
Video (HD): 4-7Mb/s (anecdotal)
Audio: Unknown
HBO NOW

Anecdotal Bitrate Sources:
https://www.macrumors.com/2019/11/04...aming-quality/
Vudu - Wikipedia
https://www.reddit.com/r/hometheater...where_bitrate/
https://www.reddit.com/r/DisneyPlus/...d_comparisons/
 

youngsyp

Distinguished Member
@Igans316

Here you go, is this proof enough? This was just a snapshot taken at around 2/3rd the way through the film. When I saw 47Mb/s that was near the beginning. I mentioned in the original thread which movie it was and that is Hocus Pocus.

Paul
 

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youngsyp

Distinguished Member
Credits: samlop10 and pghflyer at Blu-ray forums:

I would agree with Disney+ as I have never seen 28+ Mbps on FireTV Dev Tools HUD. Please let me know which film was guzzling 48 Mbps. I am eager to find it out.

Also heard that Apple are limiting peak bit rates to 15 Mbps on non-ATV boxes and the apps on TVs. Not sure if this true. I will check this on FireTV again most likely tonight.

Order Best to Worst (Bitrate of Video File Primary, Bitrate of Audio File Secondary) & Info on General Platform Support

#1 Apple TV (iTunes Movies) - HDR10, Dolby Vision, & Dolby Atmos
Video: Average: 25 Mbps; Peak: 31 Mbps
Audio: 770 Kbps
Find and watch movies with 4K, HDR, Dolby Vision, or Dolby Atmos

Apple TV Plus - HDR10, Dolby Vision, & Dolby Atmos
Video: Average: 41 Mbps; Peak: Unknown
Audio: Unknown
Apple TV+

#2 MoviesAnywhere - HDR10, Dolby Vision, & Dolby Atmos
Video: Average: 25 Mbps; Peak: 32 Mbps
Audio: 640 Kbps
https://help.moviesanywhere.com/hc/e...rt-4K-and-HDR-

#3 Disney Plus - HDR10, Dolby Vision, & Dolby Atmos
Video: Average: 17 Mbps; Peak: 29 Mbps
Audio: 770 Kbps
https://help.disneyplus.com/csp?id=c...0cf158bf961913

#4 Netflix - HDR10, Dolby Vision, & Dolby Atmos
Video: Average: 17 Mbps; Peak: 25 Mbps
Audio: 770 Kbps
How to stream Netflix in Ultra HD

-----------------------Lower Tier Video/ Audio--------------------------------------------

#5 Vudu - HDR10, Dolby Vision, & Dolby Atmos
Video: Average: 14 Mbps; Peak: 17 Mbps
Audio: 580 Kbps
VUDU UHD - 4K, Dolby Vision, Dolby Atmos

#6 Amazon Prime - HDR10, HDR10+, Dolby Vision, & Dolby Atmos
Video: Average: 10 Mbps; Peak: 13 Mbps
Audio: 190 Kbps
https://www.amazon.com/b?ie=UTF8&node=11598814011

#7 FandangoNow - IMAX Enhanced, HDR10, NO Dolby Vision, NO Dolby Atmos
Video: 10-20Mb/s (anecdotal)
Audio: Unknown
FandangoNOW
IMAX Enhanced: Unleash the power of IMAX at home

#8 Google Play - HDR10, NO Dolby Vision, NO Dolby Atmos
Video: 12-15Mb/s (anecdotal)
Audio: Unknown
https://support.google.com/googlepla.../7184994?hl=en

#9 HBONow - *NONE*
Video (HD): 4-7Mb/s (anecdotal)
Audio: Unknown
HBO NOW

Anecdotal Bitrate Sources:
https://www.macrumors.com/2019/11/04...aming-quality/
Vudu - Wikipedia
https://www.reddit.com/r/hometheater...where_bitrate/
https://www.reddit.com/r/DisneyPlus/...d_comparisons/
These are all well and good but, where's the proof that these are factual figures?

Paul
 

lgans316

Distinguished Member
These are all well and good but, where's the proof that these are factual figures?

Paul

Most of these measured on ATV box with Xcode.

Same as seen here ==>
 

youngsyp

Distinguished Member
Most of these measured on ATV box with Xcode.

Same as seen here ==>
Yes, I'm aware of how to extract the information using Xcode. However, where's a link to the source of the information you posted? Not sure why you're being so obtuse about sharing it?! You're the one who's throwing doubt over what I've now shown to be reality, after all.

Coincidentally, I have The Last Knight on iTunes, so can check that too.

Paul
 

lgans316

Distinguished Member
Yes, I'm aware of how to extract the information using Xcode. However, where's a link to the source of the information you posted? Not sure why you're being so obtuse about sharing it?! You're the one who's throwing doubt over what I've now shown to be reality, after all.

Coincidentally, I have The Last Knight on iTunes, so can check that too.

Paul

I was expecting a screenshot showing the numbers and not what you see on your router. I can post screenshot from FireTV showing the true live bit rates while playback. With ATV, I can't install XCode as I don't have a Mac. Would appreciate if you can post a screenshot that shows such high bit rates on D+.
 

youngsyp

Distinguished Member
I was expecting a screenshot showing the numbers and not what you see on your router. I can post screenshot from FireTV showing the true live bit rates while playback. Would appreciate if you can post a screenshot that shows such high bit rates on D+.
That's what I posted. Those figures are the traffic passing through the network switch, not the router. That capture was taken whilst the movie was playing and clearly shows the data rate through the switch, from the Apple TV, at 44Mb/s. That's actual data rate. No ifs, ands or buts.

Paul
 

lgans316

Distinguished Member
That's what I posted. Those figures are the traffic passing through the network switch, not the router. That capture was taken whilst the movie was playing and clearly shows the data rate through the switch, from the Apple TV, at 44Mb/s. That's actual data rate. No ifs, ands or buts.

Paul

Thanks. Movie name and timecodes please. I will check with FireTV stick.
 

youngsyp

Distinguished Member
Thanks. Movie name and timecodes please. I will check with FireTV stick.
I've given you enough information in my posts. I'm not spoon feeding you, to facilitate your want to disprove what I've adequately proven to you. That aside, in order to fairly compare, I'd suggest you'd need to replicate my configuration and use Xcode to show the 'Indicated' data rates for the same movie. That would be using an ATV 4K hard wired to your network. If I can get my wife's MBA to play ball, I'll do the same.

Paul
 

lgans316

Distinguished Member
I've given you enough information in my posts. I'm not spoon feeding you, to facilitate your want to disprove what I've adequately proven to you. That aside, in order to fairly compare, I'd suggest you'd need to replicate my configuration and use Xcode to show the 'Indicated' data rates for the same movie. That would be using an ATV 4K hard wired to your network. If I can get my wife's MBA to play ball, I'll do the same.

Paul

Sorry. I completed missed post #11 and I wasn't trying to discredit you on D+ peak bit rate. It was based on my personal observation via FireTV stick wherein I have never seen it exceed 29 Mbps. Hocus Pocus has been released recently. Let me check in FireTV and report. More the merrier for me.
 

youngsyp

Distinguished Member
Sorry. I completed missed post #11 and I wasn't trying to discredit you on D+ peak bit rate. It was based on my personal observation via FireTV stick wherein I have never seen it exceed 29 Mbps. Hocus Pocus has been released recently. Let me check in FireTV and report. More the merrier for me.
No worries.

I wouldn't waste much time on it, as what's really important - PQ, doesn't seem to be particularly proportional to bit rate, in this case at least. I mean Hocus Pocus looks very average to my eye.
Something like Tiny World on the other hand looks fantastic, not that it's on Disney+ of course. That could be used to baseline Apple TV+ though. :rotfl:

Paul
 

safcsat

Active Member
That's what I posted. Those figures are the traffic passing through the network switch, not the router. That capture was taken whilst the movie was playing and clearly shows the data rate through the switch, from the Apple TV, at 44Mb/s. That's actual data rate. No ifs, ands or buts.

Paul

Throwing a spanner in the works here, BUT....as you say that shows the data passing through the switch as the movie was playing. I know you said no ifs or buts.... BUT (sorry) what IF (sorry again!) there was more traffic also originating from the ATV at the same time the movie was playing? Software updates, icloud sync etc.. ?
 

lgans316

Distinguished Member
Throwing a spanner in the works here, BUT....as you say that shows the data passing through the switch as the movie was playing. I know you said no ifs or buts.... BUT (sorry) what IF (sorry again!) there was more traffic also originating from the ATV at the same time the movie was playing? Software updates, icloud sync etc.. ?

The accurate way is to bring up the Xcode HUD on ATV or the Dev Tools HUD on FireTV as these display the information while playing back just like pressing the info button on the BD player remote.

I can't install XCode on ATV as I don't have a Mac. Also didn't get the time yesterday to check it on my FireTV. Will do it sometime this weekend. I am very particular about bit rates as we need a certain level of bit rate for the compression to hold up. It won't be a big deal for most of the folks but not if your trained eyes can spot picture related anomalies easily.
 

youngsyp

Distinguished Member
Throwing a spanner in the works here, BUT....as you say that shows the data passing through the switch as the movie was playing. I know you said no ifs or buts.... BUT (sorry) what IF (sorry again!) there was more traffic also originating from the ATV at the same time the movie was playing? Software updates, icloud sync etc.. ?
No need to apologies, it's a good challenge.

What I'd expect to see if there were updates being downloaded would be the link maxing out, as that's what happens when you download updates. It's not like when you stream a movie, where the bandwidth required fluctuates as the buffer fills and empties (not that it will empty under normal conditions). Which is what's seen in the screen capture I provided.

I also don't have iCloud set up on the ATV.

Paul
 

lgans316

Distinguished Member
@youngsyp

I checked the first 20 minutes of Hocus Pocus on D+ using FireTV stick. Max bit rate I saw was 24 Mbps. Most of the times it was around high teens. Same with few other streams. On Endgame, I noticed 27-29 Mpbs on particular scenes

Apple TV app bit rates were even lower. Most of the stream were under 10 Mbps. The same streams on iTunes via ATV box is 25-31 Mbps. As per samplop at BD forums he claims be has never seen iTunes bit rate under 14 Mbps on his ATV box with Xcode.

Above means Apple are limited bit rates on non-ATV devices at the time of writing.

I can notice a drop in picture quality on Apple TV via FireTV as opposed to iTunes via ATV box.
 

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