mcbainne
Distinguished Member
No ambiguity there
Ok, you're trying to either bait me or dig your heels in... I'm not borhered which it is to be honest.Ok, still not entirely sure who you’re calling a Remoaner, considering the points you raised were those I countered Leavers over with facts?
I agree with what you’ve posted about tangible benefits/poor performance of elected officials. I don’t think there’s any real benefit in slinging stereotypical names around though, especially when your concerns have been countered numerous times on here in the past with the “remoaner” label
Thanks... I'll give it a browse, but that kinda sums up my point.There's a full thread on advantages of leaving, but since there aren't many yet apparent, discussion is limited.
1. See Section 38 below. Pay particular attention to 3.
2. You don't know if the EU issued an ultimatum or not. Nobody here knows.
3. It resolved the issues with the Backstop - Johnson got it removed and Varadkar dropped his demand for it like a hot potato when he saw the possibility of No Deal looming. Wise.
4. Johnson won a mandate to Get Brexit Done. That's what he's doing.
5. See 1 above. And passing the WA was the first part of a two part process.
6. The UK hasn't broken any laws or treaties.
7. I don't understand what you mean. Can you explain?
8. I'm off to bed.
European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Act 2020
An Act to implement, and make other provision in connection with, the agreement between the United Kingdom and the EU under Article 50(2) of the Treaty on European Union which sets out the arrangements for the United Kingdom's withdrawal from the EU.www.legislation.gov.uk
It must be option one, because our prime minister signed a legally binding document agreeing to those terms.
You make it sound like the EU issued an ultimatum. This is so distorted an account that it's impossible to fathom.
Johnson signed this agreement, publicly and proudly. He whipped MPs to force this agreement through the commons, insisting that it resolved the issues with "May's deal."
Johnson won a mandate to proceed on the terms of this agreement in a general election. Those who voted Tory rubber stamped his actions.
Why the **** did Johnson sign up to all this if it was so terrible? It's his fault. He's the reason we're in this situation. He did this to all of us.
The EU has stuck to the terms of a legally binding agreement. Johnson and our government haven't, yet we're asked to believe that the UK is the injured party.
You have to bend all logic to argue that anyone other than the UK government has been underhand, though as I've noted, we're very far through the looking glass now.
Ok, you're trying to either bait me or dig your heels in... I'm not borhered which it is to be honest.
A. I didnt call anyone a Remoaner... feel free to re-read my initial post.
B). If you are desperate to put someone in a box as the solitary remoaner I nominate myself, as stated I voted remain.
C. Must have missed your "facts", apologies...
D. This thread (only according to the title) is not about Brexit so I'd prefer to swerve it and concentrate on the Negotiation of new trade deals... if that's OK?
E. Your turn.....
There's a great deal of brexiteering and remoaning going on here... and quite frankly its a bit boring.
Am I allowed to be amused that A1 is having a go at weavie as to what remoaner means?
But I'm 100% not...?Am I allowed to be amused that A1 is having a go at weavie as to what remoaner means?
Not trying ro hammer anyone bro, I genuinely don't give a monkeys how you or anyone else voted... i take issue with the elected goverment being double shit at their jobs and the lies they spun in order to get their jobs and was trying to cut through all the brexit nonsense that has infested this thread and railroaded it way off topic.I seem to be getting hammered for “remoaning”, by someone who also voted to remain in the EU? Makes a change from Brexiteers doing it I suppose
Deflection is now the art of war, which is oddly enough the same tactic we see from the government on everything they touch. War being the apt word here as that's how the government now see this negotiation. Like issuing a threat to MP's about us being blockaded. Ridiculous stuff.
Answering difficult questions and/or acknowledging truths now means confliction with established Brexit beliefs. There are those who don't seem willing to face the reality of where we are. Nor the fact that leaving the EU will not be all that was promised. It never could be.
Take the mechanism for settling disputes. The government want to act suddenly as if it doesn't exist. So their proposal? To break international law instead via the way of a bill that attempts to sell the notion that domestic law overrides international obligation. As I'm writing this though I've just seen the news that they look to be backtracking and are looking to offer a veto. @IronGiant and @mcbainne does this count as another U-turn?
But regardless the mechanism is right here. They signed up to it.
View attachment 1367066
(The explanation was full of legal jargon so I've dissected it to the relevant bits).
The WA sets out a mechanism for dealing with any dispute, and both parties agree to use that mechanism (and no other), as well as agreeing to do their best to comply generally and should they be found to be in breach.
The process is progressive, giving ample time and opportunity to settle issues early on (if we'd read the WA properly in the first place, the mechanism could have been activated with plenty of time to address this particular dispute).
Under Art.168, both sides committed to using this - and only this - as means of dealing with 'any dispute arising from this Agreement', so the use of the IM Bill to disapply WA provisions is itself not legally an option.
The EU could take us to the cleaner's and tie us up in litigation if they choose to for breaching these terms. And who would blame them? Well I already know the answer to that, but I'd like to see their justification then at least.
D. This thread (only according to the title) is not about Brexit so I'd prefer to swerve it and concentrate on the Negotiation of new trade deals... if that's OK?
Useful and detailed post, thanks.
Johnson would love the EU to engage in litigation. This would help him blame the EU for collapsing negotiations, and for all the ill effects that follow.
I'd suggest a wish to force the EU to end negotiations lies behind the threat to break international law.
In Johnson's mind this would be the ultimate escape job. He could insist that Brexit would have been a success, if only those foreigners hadn't been unreasonable. He could sell that to much of the electorate, particularly when supported in this effort by most of our print and online media.
Much like Covid-19 there are no happy outcomes here.
The key question is: who takes the blame? Since Johnson is arguably Brexit's chief architect, he's no doubt desperate to ensure he won't be held accountable. The same is true of Cummings.
Useful and detailed post, thanks.
Johnson would love the EU to engage in litigation. This would help him blame the EU for collapsing negotiations, and for all the ill effects that follow.
I'd suggest a wish to force the EU to end negotiations lies behind the threat to break international law.
In Johnson's mind this would be the ultimate escape job. He could insist that Brexit would have been a success, if only those foreigners hadn't been unreasonable. He could sell that to much of the electorate, particularly when supported in this effort by most of our print and online media.
Much like Covid-19 there are no happy outcomes here.
The key question is: who takes the blame? Since Johnson is arguably Brexit's chief architect, he's no doubt desperate to ensure he won't be held accountable. The same is true of Cummings.
I've got plenty more where it came from.
Might have found your patsy though already.
There isn't yet a facepalm in existence big enough for this.
Bottom line = none of them have a clue. So quite how they're going to make a success of all this without a clue is now anyone's guess.
Might have found your patsy though already.
(Looks at the title of the forum).
Erm....
It’s amazing that anyone who’s had even a glancing interest in the Brexit process, or even the last GE, can listen to this and feel that the U.K. is the victim with regards to this. I know negotiations involve a certain amount of spin/brinkmanship but this is pure lies being told to the U.K. electorate.
It does feel like Raab has been fed to the wolves - particularly given Biden's very clear statement. No loss, obvs.
No ambiguity there
No we're not talking about the bailout but neither are we discussing US/UK trade and I responded to that post. Did you remind that member that we weren't discussing that? Next time we have a post linked Tweet about Biden or Pelosi I trust you will be equally robust in reminding the poster of the off- topic nature of his post?As will the UK, of course.
But we're not talking about the bailout here, it's the GFA which the Americans - particularly the Democrats - had a decisive hand in and they consider it to be one of their great achievements.
So, if Biden gets in and/or the Democrats retain the house and there is lasting damage to the GFA as a result of the changes to the WA, a deal with the US will not be forthcoming.
No deal with the US means no sell-off of the NHS and no chlorinated chicken. So good news. Yes?
No we're not talking about the bailout but neither are we discussing US/UK trade and I responded to that post. Did you remind that member that we weren't discussing that? Next time we have a post linked Tweet about Biden or Pelosi I trust you will be equally robust in reminding the poster of the off- topic nature of his post?