Neff C17MS32N0B microwave - don't buy before you read this|!!

Discussion in 'Domestic White Goods Forum' started by Nick0207, Aug 23, 2016.

  1. Nick0207

    Nick0207
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    The Neff C17MS320B combi microwave is (supposedly) a top end item to match the latest Neff Hide and Slide ovens (as seen in Bake Off).
    This oven is a sold and marketed as a 1000w unit. The user manual says that the max time on full power (1000w) is 30 minutes which is pretty standard for domestic microwaves.
    However the microwave reduces the max power down by about 250 watts after just 70 seconds of operation. The front panel still says it is running at 1000w but it isn't! I suspect they chose 70 secs so their engineers can, if asked, carry out an on site test to measure output power. The test is run for 60 seconds.
    This is why this oven doesn't seem to work very well if you cook foods at max power for more than 70 seconds. This is a scandal in my view! It's worse than VW cars - at least their cars work for the purchaser- this Neff microwave doesn't. If you follow the instructions on a ready meal (eg heat at 1000w for 5 minutes) your food will not be heated properly. Worse if you heat two items consecutively without switching the over off the second item is heated at a lower wattage even though the front panel display is still showing 1000w. You will also notice the cooling fan is ridiculous- there is a blast of hot air coming from the front of the machine trying to keep it cool and the fan continues to run for 5 minutes after the over is switched off.
    After a lot of discussion with BSH they volunteered 'as a gesture of goodwill' to refund my full purchase cost (nearly£900) and let me keep the oven. Anyone who has made the mistake of buying one should do the same. Because I also have the Hide and Slide matching conventional oven I can't just buy a new microwave so i'm stuck with a defective product which is not fit for purpose!!

    Have a look at the video at
    Neff combination microwave C17MS32
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 23, 2017
  2. TheToe

    TheToe
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    Thanks for all the information Nick. Much appreciated.

    My neff oven, microwave combination, induction hob, warming drawer and downdraft extractor have been sat in a box for 9 months while renovating the house. Finally getting round to installing them today.

    Ive got a BT58VT68N0B oven.. Gets an error code E5116 when using vario steam. Shuts off.

    I've got a C18MT37N0B microwave combination oven. Will test this tomorrow to see if it has the same issue as the other models.

    The touch screens on both are poor. They don't seem very responsive at all.

    I would expect better quality on £1k+ ovens. Unacceptable. I will be contacted neff to see what they have to say about things and update when they do.
     
  3. Nick0207

    Nick0207
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    There is/was a software bug on the touch panel on my model combi microwave which caused it to freeze when the buttons were operated in a certain order. Eventually fixed by Neff with updated firmware but only after they have made three site visits and changed pretty well every bit of electronics first.

    I've also got a 150mm warming drawer (mainly to fill the gap under the microwave that sits alongside a hide and slide oven) and it is actually really good. Very quick to heat up and very easy to use.
     
  4. TheToe

    TheToe
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    Neff engineer came out..

    I was at work so palmed off the missus. Said touchscreens were fine must have been us not swiping them properly. Ive got a video on my phone of it taking approx 30secs and lots of presses to even try to select a temperature.

    Did a 60sec test of microwave. Said it was fine.

    Swapped the steam generator. Works fine now.

    I'll be getting back in touch with them and no doubt another visit from the neff engineer which I will make sure I'm there for.

    Nick.. Did you start emailing the bigwigs straightaway or wait for a few neff visits first after getting nowhere with them?
     
  5. Nick0207

    Nick0207
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    I was able to demonstrate the touch panel s/w bug on my combi to the engineer so he accepted there was a fault. Leave the oven overnight (on standby) and then, without touching any buttons, open and close the door. Then it won't switch on. You have to leave the oven for a couple of hours for the fault to reappear (once it starts working) though so this is a once off demonstration to the engineer.

    After numerous button pushes it eventually starts working. As this had taken 4 engineer visits to get to this point (the last one phoned to say he wasn't coming as there was nothing more he could do!) Neff replaced my combi with one with updated firmware. I was dealing with Catherine Walsh at Neff [email protected] at this stage and I raised with her the issues about the poor heating performance when using the oven for 2 minutes or more and she referred the problem to higher levels.

    I can prove the microwave switches the 1000w setting down to about 600w after 70 seconds. It is fairy easy to demonstrate by doing two consecutive (identical) heating tests for two minutes each. The second test was 10 deg C cooler than the first, as on the second test the oven will only operate at 600w even though the display says 1000w.

    Once I had discovered this and told Neff of my tests they involved Karl Ullrich ([email protected]) who eventually rang me after they took several weeks to fail to reply to my questions. Private message me if you'd like any copies of the emails as happy to pass them on to you. BSH are contravening several consumer law and competition laws with this product. Nick
     
  6. TheToe

    TheToe
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    Thanks Nick... I've pm'ed you... If you could send copies of emails that would be great. More evidence the better. Much appreciated
     
  7. Chris Gilbert

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    Interesting reading, we got the C27MS22N0B, and noticed that it doesn't always wake up on first touch, but hadn't linked it to the door opening/closing. It'll take a few stabs to then wake up in our experience...

    As for the 1kw thing, tbh I felt a bit puzzled at the microwave level choices anyway, why the gap from 600 to 1000, given that most ready meals seem to be 750 and 850, I don't think we've every used anything less than the 1kw.

    Is the 1KW just one model, or likely all the ones of the same style, sounds like an easy test, with a couple of glasses of water, I might go try it out...

    It would answer why a few things seemed colder than expected.

    This would seem to be a food safety issue, as we tend to reduce cooking time (it's 1KW after all!), and so could end up with under cooked food...

    Tried the test, but think I need to do it again once the oven has finished cooling, as it sounds like it's the very first one to get (also put the energy monitor next to it, see if that changes during the test...)

    So redone the test, two glasses of water, 2minutes at 1KW. First one came out around 75C, 2nd one about 58C.

    Energy meter showed ~600W difference in power usage between first and second run (first one started to drop from it's peak during the test, 2nd one started high, but rapidly dropped)

    Guess I'll need to talk with Neff as well. Any chance you can PM the emails over to me as well?

    For now I guess we use 600W and add time to cooking, so that stuff is properly heated (given that the difference from 1kw to 600w would be a couple of minutes...)
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2016
  8. Nick0207

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    I've pm'd you. My unit defaults to 600w and 1 minute as the switch on settings and users cannot change this. Every other microwave I've used either lets you set the default values or switches on at the last or maximum power setting.

    It takes ten push button operations to get to 1000w for 2 minutes. The only bit of the user manual they couldn't change is where it says that the max time for use at full power (1000w) is 30 minutes. Even they realised that if they openly admitted that the real max time at 1000w is 70 seconds they wouldn't sell many units!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 23, 2017
  9. mikeshepard

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    Good job I read this, I was on the verge of buying an oven and combi microwave, so you have saved me £K2. A pity as we really wanted the slide and hide door. The microwave issue is unbelievable from a 'prestige' manufacturer.
     
  10. alexcoops

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    Hello, I have one of these Neff Microwaves and when I raised this point with Neff (BSH) I was told this is quite normal for Inverter Microwaves and he emailed me a document explaining this (attached). I am not happy I bought something which doesn't heat the way it should, I was told the 1000w setting is for liquids only.

    Nick0207, could you send me you communications I would like to take this further as I feel I have been miss-sold.
    Thanks

     

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  11. Nick0207

    Nick0207
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    I read their document, which I hadn't seen before, so this is something they have produced to try to 'convince' customers that the microwave works OK. It's a load of baloney- any engineer will tell you that Invertors - if designed properly- do not fail at full load! I don't know of any other manufacturers' Inverter microwave which has to reduce from full power to prevent failure. Inverter technology is basically a different type of power supply which doesn't need a large transformer so is smaller, lighter and cheaper to make.

    A quote from a web site on Inverter ovens:

    These (inverter) type of microwaves also tend to cook things faster due to their increased efficiency and power. For example, older microwaves often took three minutes to cook popcorn, the inverter microwave can do it in a minute and a half. These types of microwaves are a better fit for actually cooking food.

    The Neff unit takes longer to cook everything! I'm afraid it's a duff design. I've never found any microwave recipe book that says you should only heat food at 600w which is what BSH say.
    pm me with yr email address and I'll send you the docs
     
  12. alexcoops

    alexcoops
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    Hi Nick thanks for your reply, I can't find how I PM you. Alex
     
  13. outoftheknow

    outoftheknow
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    In his posts click on his name (includes avatar if you are on a device that shows it) and it should pop up with his details. In there is a link to start a conversation which is what a PM has been called here for a while now :)
     
  14. alexcoops

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    I complained to BSH regarding my Neff C17MS320B combi microwave and after they sent an engineer to test it they also refunded the cost of the Microwave and let me keep the appliance. Thanks for your help Nick0207 and I must admit BSH were very efficient and helpful once I contacted their Directors office.
     
  15. Quarky

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    This is really disappointing. We just bought a steam oven and wanted the combi to go with it. It seems that ALL the combi models use the 1kw inverter tech.

    So I assume that they will all suffer this issue...

    Can't send the oven back as it was a private sale so looks like we'll be stuck with a crappy neff microwave... Or buy another brand that won't match!
     
  16. bigmac21

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    I've been considering buying one of these, or the higher spec C28MT27N0B. Has anyone bought one more recently and could confirm if the issues still exist? Given they are still being sold, I would have thought they have worked out a fix and have incorporated it into later releases. They do now appear to be sold as 900W ovens rather than 1KW so it would appear to indicate some sort of change. Also some reviews seem to indicate that it takes several key presses to access the microwave function. Is that still the case? Thanks for any help.
     
  17. Quarky

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    I recently bought an ex-demo.
    Note the reference number is C17MS32N0B/11 (not /01).

    It does seem that tweaks have been made. Firstly, there's no mention of 1000W anymore on the NEFF website. It merely states the various power outputs, the highest being 900W

    Next, to get to the max setting no longer takes ten key presses. From memory (it's been put away while the kitchen units are being built) it defaults to 600W so there's just a few key presses to get to "max".

    Used it a few times for simple reheating and so far, haven't noticed a difference from our 'old' Kenwood 900W timing - wise.

    Hope that helps. Can't guarantee that they've all been fixed/updated but was pleased to find that ours does not seem to suffer the issues that the OP faced.
     
  18. Nick0207

    Nick0207
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    The ten key presses are/were what is needed to get to a typical setting of 1000w for 2 mins.
    The heating problems cannot be solved in the firmware. The magnetron needs to be completely redesigned as it's not fit for purpose. I don't know if BSH have done this.

    Note, the 900/1000w has always been around- the Neff Web site says it's a 900 watt unit but retailer ads state 1000w and the display on the unit also shows 1000w (when selected).
    If possible I suggest you get a real demo of the one you're interested in. If the default power setting is 600w and the default time setting is 60 secs I suspect it's the same design!
    The 600w default cannot be changed as it's one of the ways BSH chose to disguise the,design error. Also if the user manual says all food should only be cooked at 600w then it's definitely got the same problem. No other manufacturer recommends 600w heating.
    Nick
     
  19. Smiler217

    Smiler217
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    Hi there I am having the same problem with my new combi microwave C17MR02N0B/35, it just does not heat the food as well as my old 900w microwave. I have contacted BSH and they have fobbed me off saying there is not a software issue so I don't know where else to turn Nick 0207 can you offer any advice

    thanks nicola
     
  20. Nick0207

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    If you send me your email address (use 'Start a Conversation' after left clicking on my avatar/picture) I'll send you some info.
     
  21. bigmac21

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    Thanks for updating Nick0207 and Quarky.
     
  22. Smiler217

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    thanks nick I have messaged you, regards
     
  23. Stuart Wright

    Stuart Wright
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    @Nick0207 you have made some serious assertions in this thread without any evidence to back them up. We are going to need some solid evidence if we’re going to keep this thread public. Please provide that evidence within the next couple of days.
     
  24. Nick0207

    Nick0207
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    Stuart, look at the attached upload document entitled UDT Power Management. This provides all the evidence you need. It was produced by BSH for their engineers so that they could 'explain' to customers why the microwave cannot run at full power for more than 70 seconds, even though the advertising and user manual state that the maximum cooking time at full power is 30 minutes.

    an extract from the document makes it very clear:

    "The inverter can be operated continuously only at a microwave output power of 600 W with
    optimum cooling"

    Note: By "continuously" they mean after 70 seconds!

    The microwave has a serious design fault which would cause premature failure if used as specified and it is utterly reprehensible of BSH to market and sell these units in this state. By the way, all the BSH branded combi microwaves (including Bosch and Siemens) have the same problem.

    My posts are in the public interest and should be kept public please.
     

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  25. Stuart Wright

    Stuart Wright
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    I'm not trying to be difficult, just thorough. I could create that PDF document in no time. It's not evidence, I'm afraid. How about, for example, a video showing the power usage?
     
  26. Nick0207

    Nick0207
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    I am a qualified engineer with 30 years experience and I can assure you I have not fabricated the PDF evidence which has, by the way, copyright marking by Bosch Siemens Group down the side! If anyone thinks or wishes to claim I have libelled them because this is a fabrication then they are more than welcome to sue me.

    I'm also perplexed why you think a video (which would be far easier to manipulate in practice) somehow showing power usage would be more valid than the PDF? The whole point of the cover up by BSH when they discovered the problem was to try to disguise the issue. This is why these units default at switch on (which cannot be changed) to 600w operation and why their user instructions claim that you should only heat food at 600w. No other microwave manufacturer does or states this. It is also why, even when the microwave has reduced power to 600w, that the front panel still shows it is operating at 1000w.

    If you want further proof perhaps you could email BSH/Neff at [email protected] and ask them to confirm if the PDF is a valid document or look at the other posts by frustrated Neff combi owners on this web site. Numerous people have complained about the heating performance of this unit - have they fabricated their complaints as well? And if they have, why have BSH given myself and numerous other Neff owners a 100% refund of the purchase cost and let us keep the units? Doesn't really make sense does it if there is nothing wrong with their microwaves does it.

    It has to be questioned as well why, after 16 months, you have found it necessary to ask for proof? I suspect it is because BSH have asked you to remove the posts.

    I will also send you though (by private conversation) a copy of my formal complaint to BSH which is not for further publication please. This was sent to BSH legal in Germany and resulted in them offering me the 100% refund.

    I reiterate, my posts should be kept on your site as they are true and correct and in the public interest.
     
  27. Stuart Wright

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    I didn't say that you had. But someone else could, and it's possible and you haven't given evidence that you haven't. That copyright marking is just text which is easily manufactured using photoshop.
    Correct. And we will have to unless we can get some evidence to support your assertions.
    I'm only guessing here, but a video showing a microwave connected (only) to a power meter showing the power drop from 1kw down to 600watts would be fairly strong evidence that the unit does not perform as per the stated performance.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2017
  28. Nick0207

    Nick0207
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    Why do you say " I'm only guessing" above; you are asking for evidence but you don't seem to know what evidence you need and you have dismissed the considerable proof I have given you so far.. I can provide you with a video of exactly what you are asking but this is pointless if you are then going to say I could have fabricated the video. Please confirm that if I send you a video showing the combi power consumption with a timer in view that you will accept this as proof.

    I have already suggested, which you seem to have ignored, that you ask BSH to confirm the validity of the PDF and my letter of complaint to them. Why don't you do this as then you will have concrete proof?
     
  29. Stuart Wright

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    I'm guessing at what evidence a court would need. So far, you haven't given sufficient evidence, never mind proof.
    Don't second guess that I would suggest you would create a fabricated video. It's easy to video a power meter connected to the device and on repeated tests in a single, unedited shot, show what is happening. That would be enough for me to then investigate this further.
    I'm trying to contact https://www.linkedin.com/in/kathow/ now, the person who contacted us. He's Head of Legal & Regional Compliance, Company Secretary and a barrister of 18 years. Do you think a PDF (which is easily created using adobe illustrator) is going to constitute sufficient evidence?
    Your tone suggests that I am questioning your honesty. I am not. I'm just asking for better evidence because you have the burden of proof, here, and the quality of evidence needs to be high.

    I've done some investigating myself, starting with the product page on the NEFF website:
    C17MS32N0B
    Where on there does it state that the microwave is 1000 watts?
    Via the product specification link https://products.bsh-partner.com/picenterext/specsheet/GB/en-GB/C17MS32N0B.pdf
    it states that the maximum power for the microwave is 900 watts.
    Via the Downloads link, you can see the instruction manual:
    http://media3.neff-international.com/Documents/9001309336_A.pdf
    What does it say on there about microwave power usage for food (as opposed to liquids?)

    I'm trying to get to the truth, here.
    This statement is in breach of our rules unless you can provide sufficient evidence to support the claim.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2017
  30. Nick0207

    Nick0207
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    Don't second guess that I would suggest you would create a fabricated video. It's easy to video a power meter connected to the device and on repeated tests in a single, unedited shot, show what is happening. That would be enough for me to then investigate this further.

    Ok I will do the video as you suggest. Should be with you tomorrow. How do I send it to you?
     

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