Need some advice on a new switch

Discussion in 'Networking & NAS' started by Zigourney, Jun 1, 2018.

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  1. Zigourney

    Zigourney
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    Need a new switch for a bigger property that I am moving into at the end of the month. The house is being wired as part of the build with cat6, hdbaseT spec and coax etc. Anyway, I have always used Netgear switches and will be needing around 22 ports with LAG support, to connect all the cat6 faceplates in the house, including a NAS server and some POE security cameras, however don't need a POE switch as the NVR has POE sockets in it, but that will be connected to the main switch via a vlan. So naturally I was looking at a 24 port netgear non POE switch linked below. Alternatively I could pick up a second hand HP Procurve from ebay.

    Which one to go for, Netgear or an older HP Procurve? Was thinking the older Procurve might be more stable/reliable, I have had to reboot previously owned Netgear switches, routers many a times before. Any thoughts or recommendations?

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product...sfl_title_4?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE

    HP ProCurve 2510G-48 (48-Port Gigabit Switch) HP 2510G-48 Gigabit Switch | eBay

    Thanks
    Z
     
  2. mickevh

    mickevh
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    I don't think there's much to worry about between one manufactures switches and another - it's mostly a choice about form and after sales support.

    What I can say to my own experience is that sometimes there's issues with a particular model. Back in the day I had a fleet of 3com (now part of HP) switches and we had about 15 switches of a particular model that used to crash about once a week. My vendor never investigated why, but replaced them (FOC) with a different model that didn't exhibit the same fault. We (literally) never had to restart the replacement. My point being that I don't think one can ascribe lack of reliability to a particular brand, though sometimes issue can arise with a particular product.

    That said, one of my suppliers refuses to sell NetGear kit for reasons I've never explored. (He prefers Extreme - as he says they are "all the old 3com guys.")

    Personally I would be reluctant to buy Cisco because they are expensive (I can get the same functionality in a switch 1000 GBP a pop cheaper) and with Cisco (to me) everything always seems to be a chargeable "extra feature" whereas other suppliers just give you everything out of the the box.

    I would applaud your approach of deciding what features you need, then shopping for it rather than falling in love with a brand and trying to find what problems their products can solve.

    The sort of thing I would be looking for is (of course) that my chosen product offers the features I need, then what is the after sales support like: E.G. Are firmware upgrades free of chargeable, what's the warranty period, how long is support (such as firmware upgrades) provided. I'd also download a copy of the User Manual for my prospective purchase and have a read - sometimes that's quite revealing.

    One other thing worth considering for SOHO installs is that big rack mounted switches are often fan cooled which might be noise issue depending where it's installed. Any of course, you need to house them in a rack if one were doing it "properly" with patch panels and the like, though for a one off SOHO that's out of sight, one could pop them on a shelf or screw through the mounting ears into some stout wooden battens or similar if one wanted to save the cost of a rack cabinet.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2018
  3. Zigourney

    Zigourney
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    Thanks, that's good advice, I will look do some spec sheet comparisons, bearing in mind after sales support. I just need something that is a 24porter, rock solid stable and reliable with LAG support.

    Will download some manuals to give me some insight into the GUI's too.

    My budget is £200 for 24 ports non poe. Might even go with a poe and stretch it to £300 and future proof it.
     
  4. mickevh

    mickevh
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    Did you notice one of the switches you've linked is 48 port...?

    A cursory glance at the NetGear one suggests is might also be able to route which may be of interest if you want to use VLAN's.

    Increasingly, it seems to me, a lot of higher spec. switches seem to offer routing ability which is somewhat "blurring" the distinction between what is a "switch" and what is a "router." In olden days they would have been separate boxes.
     
  5. Zigourney

    Zigourney
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    Yes the HP one is 48 ports, but it is the same price as the netgear 24 port switch, that's why I added it to my short list.

    I have read some good things about HP procurve switches, and that's the reason for considering an older and what was a much more expensive switch, think I saw these retail around the £500 mark on google. But having said that, obviously I would get no support on a second hand switch. The netgear does offer lifetime warranty and has all the features I need (LAG and vlans), I may just buy that one, unless someone tells me they have had issues with this switch before.
     
  6. ChuckMountain

    ChuckMountain
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    A couple of rambling thoughts as I have been in a similar situation and have tried different kit over the years.

    Sure you know but HDBaseT and Ethernet are not compatible and although they use the same cabling cannot be run through a switch. It is also recommended to not have breaks in the cable where possible and use brush plates. Having said that my HDBaseT works fine with wall sockets and a patch panel :)

    Power consumption 100W 24/7 = £100 a year (a bit more now) I had a 48gigabit port switch I used which apart from the fans noise beating Concorde was drinking close 100W of juice. What might be a bargain might cost you more in the long run.

    Noise as above, go fanless if you can as the netgear one you link to :)

    I need about 27 ports in my switch in my cabinet and one of my remote cupboards I have a further 8 port switch.

    I ended up going with 24 port + what I had on my router. Incidentally my router supports VLAN routing which is good.

    VLAN and LAG -> What are you wanting to achieve? The reason I ask is it not always as practical as you would like.

    LAG I have it on my server, which incidentally can do it without requiring LAG support on the switch but I generally don't need the bandwidth that often.

    VLAN I wanted to have stuff separated for a variety of reasons including security etc. However it does cause issues with IoT things when the "app" wants to discover them and does a broadcast. If it is not on the same VLAN then it won't find it. Also if the switch does not do routing and your router does you might run in problems trying to get Internet access for the tagged LAN.

    My current switch is a D-Link 28 port PoE that I got used from the Bay for less than £50 from memory. I had to swap the fans out as they were just too loud but otherwise its good.
     
  7. Zigourney

    Zigourney
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    I hope HDbaseT works without problems through my faceplates and patch panel, I know this can be a bit hit and miss, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t depending on too many variables. But to be honest I’m not relying on it, and besides I don’t want to rely on it too much as I believe the hdbaseT technology actually cost too much when properly installed for multiple rooms and I also believe it’s not very future proofed at all. The cat6 cables being installed in my house will probably only support 4K at 6ofps at the most without lossless hd audio and that’s with some good (expensive) hdbaset equipment, but as technology advances, think 8k, lossless hd audio, atmos etc. The cat6 infrastructure won’t be able to support such bandwidth, you will need hdmi 2.1 cables for that...and that is the reason why I have opted to put my amp in the lounge connected via hdmi to my tv, networking stuff, NAS server, all home automation control units along with the cctv networked video recorder can all go in the rack in the cupboard upstairs.

    In terms of the vlan, that is to separate the cctv nvr from the rest of the network and the lags are for my nas server, which I use as a media server and my main back up system. I know lags are only useful when multiple clients are hitting the server at once, which does happen in my set up.

    Think you’re right, a 48 port switch is probably an overkill and the netgear i posted above has everything I need so I’ll proably just order that and see how I get along with it, it does have lifetime support and amazon are pretty good with returns.

    Feel free to take a look at my other thread showing the build and install of my home av and network where this new switch will eventually be installed and thanks for your input Chuck!

    New build house - with Home Hub Installation updated with pics
     
  8. ChuckMountain

    ChuckMountain
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    Had a quick look at the other thread looks good. I would wire for Satellite too if you haven't already, still think VM's TV service is naff but have their BB in my place.

    LAG is only really useful if you are exceeding bandwidth from one or more clients. Multiple clients using for streaming say is going to use a fraction of the bandwidth available and you don't need LAG.

    Do the NVR recommend a separate VLAN? Separating as I mentioned including IoT can cause you issues that you might not expect :)

    Current HDBaseT is either 1080p with Full HD Audio and no compression or 4K with compression that is visually unoticeable I wasn't aware they had reduced the audio side @Joe Fernand can you comment?

    CAT 6 will support 10Gigabit over short runs I am sure that HDBaseT will come up with something :)

    The other thing to look as is Hybrid Fibre HDMI leads or trunking.
     
  9. Trollslayer

    Trollslayer
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    Be careful - most switches cannot deliver full PoE/PoE+ power to all outputs simultaneously.
    I have seen this cause intermittent problems in some setups particularly when another device is connected.
    Also, decent satellite cable can be used for cable.
     
  10. Zigourney

    Zigourney
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    It is recommended to separate out your NVR/CCTV security system via VLANS if they are connected through your main switch, see attached link for some useful info.
    How to setup VLANs for CCTV cameras (Easy explanation) - Learn CCTV

    My walls have gone up, they have been plastered and skimmed, so I wont be installing anymore wires/ or cables through the walls now for a while. The next time I do this will probably be when I convert the garage, at some point in the future.
     
  11. ChuckMountain

    ChuckMountain
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    Yes under some circumstances it would be a good idea but depending on your use case I can't help but feeling it is like the old hidden SSID and MAC address filtering as a security for WiFi setups.

    People did it by recommendation without understanding the consequences. It meant for normal users they had to have their MAC added into the WiFi software and type the name manually. It wasn't user friendly at all.

    For a hacker, simplistically it meant I impersonate your MAC address and can read the hidden SSID by sniffing and it didn't stop me :)

    I am not sure what your background is or how much you already know so apologies if I am teaching you to suck eggs ;)

    That link you sent is fine for setting up VLANs but it is a really simple example, effectively creating the equivalent of two networks with two switches in essence. That is as they say not rocket science :)

    If you don't need the VLANs to ever talk to each other or the Internet then it will work fine.

    What we also need to consider is
    1) DHCP - your switch does not do it, your standard ISP home router won't support VLAN. Each VLAN should have its own IP address range
    2) VLAN Routing - useful if you want to watch the NVR
    3) Internet Access

    Most NVRs allow you to view them remotely either locally or via the Internet so you can see who is at the front door or the burglar breaking in etc.

    Having a quick look at the manual, the Netgear does allow some VLAN routing but does not seem to have any access control over it as you would typically when using a router\firewall.

    It doesn't do any DHCP handling so you either have to use static IPs (which doesn't work on a guest WiFi network) which is not ideal or introduce something else that handles it.

    Internet Access with that setup won't work without a VLAN aware router. Not a problem as you can buy one of those and that should cover most of the above.

    Did you put wiring in for Wireless Access Points?
     
  12. Trollslayer

    Trollslayer
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    Good point - never assume WiFi is secure.
     
  13. Zigourney

    Zigourney
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    Thanks, lots of useful info there for me to have a think about.
    I have cat6 points in every room including the hallway, so adding a wireless poe access point should be no probs. But to be honest, I am not a fan of wireless, I will be hardwiring everything with an Ethernet socket where possible.


    Good point!
     
  14. ChuckMountain

    ChuckMountain
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    Yep completely agree with you there. Everything in my house that can be hard wired is, it's quick and more reliable end of. :D

    However I have various phones, tablets, Alexa's etc of all which can't be hardwired so for me getting a good WiFi signal across the house is equally important. "Why is the Internet not working\slow dad" I don't want to get ;)

    I had multiple access points before and I actually transitioned across to UniFi and I was lucky enough to put some more wiring to keep it central but I get good speeds across the entire house with just one.
     
  15. Zigourney

    Zigourney
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    Im glad you mentioned UniFi, as I started looking at their product range over the weekend.
    In my current house, which is an old house with solid masonry walls throughout, I have a 200mb Virgin Media broadband connection with their supplied superhub 3 router, plus I am using an old netgear router as an additional access point in order to get a decent wifi signal throughout the house, however I still get a blackspot in one of the bedrooms upstairs...so I started looking into enterprise grade equipment. Unifi access points have gotten a lot of good reviews. Will assess the situation when I move into the new house, these new build houses are pretty much just plaster boards so wifi shouldn't be an issue lol.
     
  16. ChuckMountain

    ChuckMountain
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    I have the 350Mbps VM service, though think I might drop to 200 or even 100, I would the only thing holding me back is the upload speed :(

    With the right settings I can max it out on a client cable of that such as new iPhone if in same room and it drops off with distance and room. However pretty much everywhere in the house I can stream UHD\HD as required so not complaining :)
     
  17. Zigourney

    Zigourney
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    That's good to know, see how I get on when I move and If I need an access point, I'll definitely come and take another look at the Unifi range.
     

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