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Need big help on the subwoofer front!!!

Discussion in 'Subwoofers' started by SBanga, Mar 23, 2005.

  1. SBanga

    SBanga
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    My System consists of:-

    Yamaha DSP-AX750SE amplifier
    Yamaha DVD-S530 dvd player
    Mission M34i fronts
    Eltax Linear Response centre
    Eltax Symphony 2.3 rears
    Paradigm PS1000 subwoofer
    Panasonic Sky Digital Box
    Toshiba 33" TV (non widescreen model which I can't change unless I can talk my parents around!)
    Gale speaker wires & Cambridge Audio interconnects
    Alphason A3-B Stand

    I realise the above is a bit of mix and match as I am in the process of upgrading, and, have only recently purchased the amplifier, floordstanders and stand. I am now in the market for a little more serious bass. My tastes are loud and deep as I listen to a lot of music (mostly hiphop) through the system which I feel the Yammy amp handles competently. To me, the PS1000 plays a little too quietly, can become boomy and misses details low down. However, due to me being a student on a limited budget (and not having a student loan!), I can only stretch to around £400 or maybe slightly more for a new subwoofer. I have shortlisted the Mission M5AS, Mission V6AS, Velodyne CHT-12R and the Epos ELS Sub to fill a larger than average room. I don't have the option of SVS or any other American subwoofers as I live in England. Which would you guys recommend out of these or would you recommend something completely different? What would be the differences between the subs? Also, where would you say I spend my hard earned money next?

    Thank You!
    Regards
    Sunil
     
  2. Ian J

    Ian J
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    So do most of us but we import the SVS directly from the manufacturer in USA which is a painless process.

    Of the subs that you have listed the Epos and Velodyne are the two that should be given most consideration and according to a recent group review of subwoofers in What Hifi the Epos is the most musical whilst the Velodyne hits harder and deeper.

    Bear in mind that most music doesn't go as deep as the LFE in some films so either should be suitable for you but you should really try and listen to both using the type of music you like so that you can see if you prefer the accuracy and timing of the Epos to the harder hitting Velodyne.

    If you use your system to watch films a lot I might be inclined to change the centre speaker for one that is a better match for your Missions before changing the sub anyway.
     
  3. Pollywoggle

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    rags is selling his svs pb10-isd in the classiffieds for a touch over £300.
    Its only about 6 weeks old, he bought it to tide him over whilst waiting for his monster sub which he now has.
    Have a look, these are excellent subs, and you wouldn't have to import!
     
  4. Mango Bob

    Mango Bob
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    Sunil, I found I got a lot more bass from my 750 and floorstanders (MS906s) when I upgraded the speaker cable to cat5 home-made cables...and I mean a *lot* more bass, midrange also improved and the higher frequencies were clearer.

    I also find if I want more bass, setting the output to Both and speakers to Large uses the full range of the floorstanders for music.

    Of course this usually results in too much bass for my ears but you may prefer it.

    Do a search in the Cables forum for cat5, there are links to good threads from one of the stickies. It's cheap (about £15 for a 100m roll of cat5) and takes about an hour a cable.

    Oh, also check that the auto-setup didn't set your front speaker levels to -5dB as it did with many others here.
     
  5. SBanga

    SBanga
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    I have read the review in What Hifi but was somewhat perplexed as to how the Epos had "lower loudness limits" than the Velodyne despite a higher amplifier output and lower claimed frequency range. I have explored the SVS option before but came away with no idea how much these things would cost to import and whether I could get a decent one for around £400. Anyone tested the Missions? Common concensus is that these are some of the most musical subwoofers u can buy for the price. Also, my Yammy is set up with the fronts at +6db at the moment and all speakers are set to large so I am getting good bass from the fronts, just need that bit more extension.
    Thanks for the advice so far guys, I've tried writing to magazines but they probably don't think my letter's good enough lol.

    Regards
     
  6. Ian J

    Ian J
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    I wouldn't worry too much about amplifier size as in general the smaller the enclosure the more power needed so the amp output isn't really relevant on it's own.

    There is no agreed standard for measuring subwoofer frequency range and the manufacturers tend to make the most of this by producing reams of meaningless stats.

    The only frequency response that matters is the one that the sub achieves in your room and that could be wildly different from what the manufacturers are claiming
     
  7. superpixel

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    I personally think you are looking in the wrong area...swapping in a £400 subwoofer isn't gonna do much, if anything, for hip-hop at loud levels...it might even make things worse.

    Locating a pair of B&W DM603s and a quality power amp would be money better spent I reckon...and run without the sub for music.

    I'm sure other people would disagree and do things differently, but thats my two penneth.
     
  8. SBanga

    SBanga
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    Nice idea Superpixel, only problem is that this option'd take me way over my budget before I'd even got past the speakers, never mind gettin into what qualifies as a quality power amp! And I've also heard the DM603s are somewhat lacking in bass weight, something I'm prioritising. I'm happy with my sound as it is; the M34is do exactly what I want of them, I just need a subwoofer to supplement them.
     
  9. SBanga

    SBanga
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    Also, just seen a few things on the XLS200. Never read any proper reviews on one though. Any good? Or too small to challenge the other subs mentioned?
     
  10. superpixel

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    A 2nd hand pair of B&W DM603 (S2 or S3...S2 are even better) should be under £300. The Yamaha will drive them until you can afford another £200-300 for a good power amp, which will transform the sound up another level still. Selling your speakers will help the budget too of course...

    Whoever said the 603s are lacking in bass was plain wrong. Virtually nothing of a similar price (and at a lot more) puts out so much bass or goes so loud without strain. Your Missions will sound like headphones in comparison...audition a pair of 603 S3's in a shop, turn up the wick and see what you think..

    If youre happy with the sound, then you don't need to change anything, surely? Seems youre equating bass as a whole with subwoofer, but this just ain't so im afraid...most of the action in music is upwards of 60Hz...

    Good luck either way, I hope you get what you set out to achieve!
     
  11. PJTX100

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    The BK's the dog's conkers. However if you want obscenely massive bass I'd look at 2 options...

    1. go for one of those big tubes from abroad ;)

    2. or if you don't want to import, have a look at this monster Sony sub here...
    http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=180833&page=1&pp=15

    ...PJ
     
  12. GFS AV

    GFS AV
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    superpixel (sorry for hijacking the thread by the way),

    You've got me thinking about this power amp lark. I have the older Yamaha 640SE amp, and am wondering how I could upgrade amp-wise. Rather than upgrade to another complete AV amp, would I be better off getting a seperate power amp? Would this be adding to every channel or just the front two?

    Also, are there any particular makes/models of power amps you could recommend to add to my system? Here's what I got:

    Marantz DV4500 DVD.
    Yamaha 640SE amp (obviously)
    Mordaunt-Short Avant 906 fronts, 905c, 902 rear.

    Any suggestions folks?
     
  13. Ian J

    Ian J
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    GFS - please start a thread in the amplifier forum if you wish for suggestions
     
  14. GFS AV

    GFS AV
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    :laugh: fair do's :smashin:
     
  15. Smurfin

    Smurfin
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    I personally think that's completely wrong. A £400 subwoofer like the SVS PB-10 will laugh in the face of any comparative floorstander, like the ones you mention. Plus, adding the sub will lessen the power load on the amplifier:)
     
  16. SBanga

    SBanga
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    My sentiments exactly. But I've decided to exclude the Epos now as I don't believe it'll be big or loud enough for my tastes, even if it is probably the most precise. How much would a SVS PB-10 cost plus import in pounds??? And how would it compare to the CHT12R, M5AS, V6AS, XLS200 and now this unknown Sony! I'm so confused!!!! Has anyone heard more than just one of these so can give me some idea of which to start ruling out?
     
  17. Mroizouk

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    I would also disagree with this. I have plenty of music including some hip-hop tracks that have strong bass in the 20s hz.

    I've recently got myself an SVS PB12-Ultra/2 so I can fully appreciate these signals :D

    For £400, i would definately investigate that sony SAW-X900.

    The mission subs and the velo also sound like good choices. Get listening!

    I think the PB-10 would be about £380-£400 to import but I'm sure someone who has bought one will give you a more accurate figure.
     
  18. SBanga

    SBanga
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    Yeah, just listen to Ludacris - Get Back, Lil Jon - Get Low or anything by Mobb Deep for a taster. Don't know exactly how low they drop but name me a floorstander that can play strongly at 25hz under £1000. I get the argument that the purist route is via a decent floorstander but its just not right for me. Also, them battle scenes in LOTR will never sound the same without a good sub.

    Now this Sony, I haven't heard much about it. Is it unfairly a dark horse, or is it justifiably never mentioned in the same breath as SVS or Velodyne?
     
  19. SBanga

    SBanga
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    I've just read the "BK XLS200 vs SVS PB10, the contest :)" thread and decided to rule the BK out. My system is situated in a big room and wouldn't suit a small sub. Two down, four to go!!!!

    Shortlist is now:

    Sony SAW-X900 (need a lot more info)
    Mission M5AS/V6AS
    Velodyne CHT12R
    SVS PB-10


    Help, anyone???
     
  20. recruit

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    Out of the 4 above i would narrow it down to 2 the Velodyne & SVS, as for ease of use & looks the Velodyne would get my vote as it looks better and has a remote for easy setting up and control but the SVS may slightly outperform it??
     
  21. Ian J

    Ian J
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    I must agree with Smurfin although as a founder member of the movement for the abolition of hip hop music I wish I didn't.

    Of Sunil's shortlist I would guess that the SVS should be top of the pile. I haven't heard the Velodyne but all of the reviews say that whilst it makes an excellent home cinema subwoofer it doesn't quite match the best in class for music.

    I don't know who these people are that say that Mission subs are amongst the best for music as most people will say the opposite.
     
  22. Mroizouk

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    here is the sony.

    http://www.kingselectronics.sonydealer.co.uk/product.asp?qsid=19427

    and this site has the best price i can find with a quick search. See if the other place will do you a deal.

    http://www.unbeatable.co.uk/CatalogueItem_12842.html

    Its a serious sub, 1000w with 2x12" drivers. I've heard a pair of these running at the London what hi-fi? show last year. They were playing the spiderman trailer, not music, but it was the heaviest bass i heard all day.

    I'd get an audition of either of the mission models, because I've read high praise of their musical performance but unlike Ian J haven't heard much to the contrary.

    At the end of the day, anything in your exciting shortlist will take your bass performance to another level.
     
  23. Bassbin

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    I bought one of the Sony's from the classifieds here a few weeks ago (funnily enough it replaced a PS1000 as well). It is a fantastic sub for the money. I think it slipped under the radar because previous Sony subs have been nothing special and they didn't get the marketing of it right so people assumed it was more of the same.

    However, it is much larger than all the other subs mentioned so far so check you've got room for it and it's a 2 man job to move it.
     
  24. SBanga

    SBanga
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    Mission subs aren't generally high regarded but the M5AS has 1st class reviews in Home Cinema Choice, Home Cinema and What Hifi. Its What Hifi and Home Cinema which have highly complemented its music abilities, praising its ease in which it can fill a big room too. I was able to audition one of these a while back at Superfi in Leeds but was only able to hear it at shop floor level. So while it definately wasn't playing at its best, it still sounded mighty fine.
    The Velodyne has also been very highly praised in most publications, but I don't know of a retailer in Leeds with a listening room, unless Sevenoaks sell them.........
    The Sony is a completely unknown quantity. Obviously, it has the craziest spec out of the four, but I've only read what two people have said about it and one of them owns one so could be biased!! Maybe demo material too if I can find a retailer who stocks them.
    The SVS is the hardest to judge. As there would be no way of testing it before purchase, I would be going purely by what I've heard in this forum and the highly regarded SVS name.
    To my eyes these four all look like winners with maybe not a wrong choice to make?????
    Anyone heard more than one of these so I can rule another one... maybe two out??

    The SVS is going to have to be on my final shortlist due to the impossibility of hearing one first. Its just a case of ruling out two more to see which one I "feel" will serve my needs better.

    BTW, if it did boil down to the Sony or Velodyne, I'd go SVS for its added music capabilities if I couldn't audition either of the first two. I very much doubt the Sony'd be musical running two big 12" drivers and the Velodyne is known as a home cinema beast first, music sub second. Now... between the SVS and Mission????? Who knows!
     
  25. PJTX100

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    I only pointed out the Sony 'cause you asked for "big help" and for 400 wonga they don't come much bigger than that! :) All reports I've seen so far are positive - and it works out at approx £4 per lb which seems a bargain to me!
    ;) ...PJ
     
  26. Londondecca

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    How big is your room and what restrictions do you have on the location of the sub
     
  27. Kazman

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    That Sony sub really does look like a bargain. I'd love to listen to one.

    I'm hoping to compare the BK XLS200 to the Velodyne CHT10R soon, and should be able gauge how good the CHT12R should be from that.

    The PB10 is a cracker for £400 though, it's just that spec sheet on the Sony sub is mouthwatering! 1KW amp, twin 12" drivers and the weight of it!! :eek: It looks like a serious subwoofer.
     
  28. SBanga

    SBanga
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    My listnening room is approx 18ft by 32ft plus added space by the room nxt to it which is the same size and not partitioned. I can only locate the subwoofer next to the tv and speakers as I have a laminate floor which cannot be lifted up to conceal a sub wire. This is also the best location to site the sub, as when I placed the sub in the listening position and moved around the room to look for sub points this was the best point.
    Kazman, I've ruled out the XLS200 so I don't see what I'd gain from your test.
    Anyone tested more than one of my shortlist???????????????
     
  29. SBanga

    SBanga
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    Sorry, but I have a need to resurrect this thread lol! The Paradigm goes next week so need to strart making a decision. Anyone heard more than one sub from my shortlist? Any input would be much appreciated
    Thanx
     
  30. Kazman

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    Sunil, where abouts are you? I have both an SVS PC ultra and a BK XLS200, you are more than welcome to come and have a listen.

    I will hopefully be listening to the Sony tomorrow, and I've also heard the SVS PB10, the SVS 20-39PC+, SVS PB12 Plus/2, and many other subs, so will report back on that when I can.
     

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