Need AVR Advice

Al Davison

Novice Member
Hello,
I purchased a Yamaha AVR and I discovered that this unit degrades the picture quality. Connecting the HDMI cable to the TV from the Cable company is very cleaner than the Yamaha when using the same HMDI cable. It appears that something is going-on with the electronics from the Yamaha or maybe I have a defect unit.

Since I do not know much about AVRs, any input would be appreciated for a recommendation of a fairly decent AVR unit that would not degrade the picture quality and will not break the bank. I was thinking about something from Marantz since it can be easily purchased where I leave.
 
D

Deleted member 39241

Guest
Have you checked whether any video processing / upscaling has been switch off within the AVR video settings?

Do you have to put the video through the AVR, can you connect it directly to the TV and use ARC or eARC for the audio back to the amp?
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
You'll unfortunately experiience similar issues regardless of the AV model or make you use. AV receivers don't pass video through even if you set their HDMI video processing to DIRECT or THROUGH. They are repeaters so would still include some processing in order to convey the video coming into them out to a display. There's also additional video circuitry that is used to mix an AV receiver's own oncreen graphics into a video signal. This cannot be done without processing the video signal.

The best option to set the Yamaha's video processing to it to set it to FIRECT grom within the AVR's video/HDMI configurations. This bypasses the AVR's own upscaler. You could also try setting the receiver to its PURE DIRECT mode which will bypass all video processing including that associated with the AV receiver's onscreen graphics.

Denon and Marantz AV receivers usually exhibit more degradation due to their video circuitry than you'd experience with a Yamaha model. This is due to the manner in which the video circuitry is employed onboard these receivers.

Yes, you'll more than likely get better results if making a direct connection to a display, but you'd then lose the convenience associated with the source and video switching of the AV receiver.
 
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Al Davison

Novice Member
You'll unfortunately experiiencesimilar issues regardless of the AV model or make you use. AV receivers don't pass video through even if you set their HDMI video processing to DIRECT or THROUGH. They are repeaters so would still include some processing in order to convey the video coming into them out to a display. There's also additional video circuitry that is used to mix an AV receiver's own oncreen graphics into a video signal. This cannot be done without processing the video signal.

The best option to set the Yamaha's video processing to it to set it to FIRECT grom within the AVR's video/HDMI configurations. This bypasses the AVR's own upscaler. You could also try setting the receiver to its PURE DIRECT mode which will bypass all video processing including that associated with the AV receiver's onscreen graphics.

Denon and Marantz AV receivers usually exhibit more degradation due to their video circuitry than you'd experience with a Yamaha model. This is due to the manner in which the video circuitry is employed onboard these receivers.

Yes, you'll more than likely get better results if making a direct connection to a display, but you'd then lose the convenience associated with the source and video switching of the AV receiver.
Thank you. I have tried everything. The picture quality is not the same like connecting HDMI from the cable box. What you are saying is true and correct. I guest there is nothing we can do for achieving that perfect picture. Thanks again!
 

Nutty667

Active Member
There should be no reason picture quality is degraded as long as you have any video processing turned off. Since HDMI carrys digital information, passing it through unaltered should be in every AV receivers remit.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
There should be no reason picture quality is degraded as long as you have any video processing turned off. Since HDMI carrys digital information, passing it through unaltered should be in every AV receivers remit.
Modern day AV receiver still have to process the video in order to mix in the onscreen graphics and menus people nowexpect. The video signal is being processed even if not engaging the receiver own upscaler. The fact of the matter is that upscaling is being used to simply allow the onscreen graphics to match the resolution of the native video being conveyed. The processing circuitry is not being bypassed.
 

Nutty667

Active Member
It's easy to mix graphics over the top without altering the rest of the picture.
Just ask anyone who's good with photoshop.
Should be no reason why pixel values not covered in onscreen graphics change in any way unless you have I/P or up scaling turned on.
The fact the pixels are going through the system is irrelevant. Its digital! I can load a video from spinning rust disks, send it round the world and it's still exactly the same pixel values on someone else's system.

I dont have any picture degradation through my marantz receiver compared to direct connect to tv.
 
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dante01

Distinguished Member
It's easy to mix graphics over the top without altering the rest of the picture.
Really.

The OP and everyone else noticing this are obviously dillusional then?


The AV receiver is not passing the video signal through it. The AV receiver is a repeater.


 

Nutty667

Active Member
Its irrelevant that it's a repeater. You can repeat digital information infinite times with no degradation.

From your link.
"The "bypass" feature will ensure that no post-processing of the signal occurs, allowing you to preserve the source quality."
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
Its irrelevant that it's a repeater. You can repeat digital information infinite times with no degradation.

From your link.
"The "bypass" feature will ensure that no post-processing of the signal occurs, allowing you to preserve the source quality."


But you insisted that no video processing is in effect when the fact od the matter is that all modern day AV receiver do not reroute the signal so it is still subkect to the processing ciecuitry. this is expecially the case relative to AV receiver that introduce onscreen graphics. THe grapgics don't even need to be displayed, the receiver is still passing the signal via the associated processing.

Again, are youi suggesting those who experience this are imaging it?

Also, where on earth does the delay experienced by gamers come from if no processing is in effect?
 
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Nutty667

Active Member
Processing doesnt mean pixels are necessarily changed.
I can "process" a digital image by multiplying all the pixel values by 1 and there would be no difference to the image.

I'm not saying hes imagining it, but it is almost certainly down to some processing options turned on.

I'm not arguing the picture doesnt go through some chips, but since its digital it can come out with identical values.

You seem really confused that a signal can go through a processing pipeline but remain unaltered.
 
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dante01

Distinguished Member
Who'd using photoshop to process video?

Any modification you make to a digital image will effect it. It is no longer the same image once processing has been applied. Whether you perceive this as an improvement or a degradation is subject to the premise that you wanted something different from what was depicted by the original and that you are happy with the result.

As I said, you are subjecting the video passing through any AV receiver to processing.

Again, are those detecting this dillusional?

Theorise all you like, maybe go look as opposed to theorising.


Yes, if the video signal were not actually subject to any processing then you should get the exact same signal as the source output to the AVR. THe fact that many don't and that yes, gamers do experience lag suggests that the AV receiver is in gact processing the signal. How else do you explain their experience and the deteriation in quality?
 
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Nutty667

Active Member
"Any modification you make to a digital image will effect it."

I'm sorry but this is utterly wrong.
This is the whole point of digital.
I can take digital values and scale then by 1 and have no difference. If you cant understand this you need to go read up on how digital image manipulation works.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
You aren't altering anything if scaling by 1 though. Stop getting your reasoning from wlawwhere and copying it. You yourself are now acting like a processor would. You are taking something and then posting it altered out of context. I'm not discussing scaling anything by 1. Neither is the OP. He is experiencing something that many other people experience. You simply saying it doesn'y happen begs the question as to what he and others are seeing and experiencing?

Wjere is the AV scaling anything by 1. Where do you even get that option on an AV receiver?

The issue revolves around the video quality and not the portrayal of crime fit images as manipulated by photoshop!
 
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Nutty667

Active Member
But that's exactly what an av receiver does to the majority of the image when its applying onscreen graphics.

The resulting blend operation results in unaltered values except where the graphics overlays are.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
Your theory is sound and if the AV receiver is not processing the video then it shouldn't be degraded.

The OP and many other owners do appear to experience detrimental differences that are not apparent if conveying the source directly to the display. Ergo, the AV receiver must still be applying some form of processing for such degradation to be apparent.

You simply stating that this isn't an issue and that the AV receiver isn't processing anything doesn't explain the degradation being experienced.

What you get via Photoshop is of no consequence.
 
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Deleted member 39241

Guest
I wonder if the TV picture settings are different on the different inputs of the TV?
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
I wonder if the TV picture settings are different on the different inputs of the TV?


I've had discussions in the past were the person experiencing similar issues stated that they'd tried using the same cable connected to the same input on the TV to compare the results attained via a direct connection to said TV to thos via the device connected to their receiver if passing the signal through the AVR to the exact same input. The picture settings should be the same settings in such instances.
 
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D

Deleted member 39241

Guest
I've had discussions in the past were the person experiencing similar issues stated that they'd tried using the same cable connected to the same input on the TV to compare the results via the device to those receiver if passing the signal through the AVR to the exact same input. THe picture settings should be the same settings in such instances.
True. It's often worth checking the obvious though, everyone is fallible!
 

Nutty667

Active Member
As I said in my 1st post.

I never claimed there wasnt an issue. I said there is no reason there has to be an issue given it's a digital signal path. Assuming the hardware is not faulty of course.

Photoshop and AV receivers both have in common the fundamentals of digital image manipulation. That is, you can add things over portions without changing the rest of the image.

My old Samsung tv has different settings per hdmi input. The menu has an option to copy current settings to all other inputs, so it could be an option in why its different.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
True. It's often worth checking the obvious though, everyone is fallible!


Yeah, but the OP also said that he was using the same cable. I'd imagine it would have been more intuative for him to have simply unplugged it from the AV receiver and plug it into the source than it would have been to unplug it from both the TV and the AV receiver and insert it into a different input on the TV?
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
A more detailed investigation ideally needs to be done, preferably by parties able to setup a side by side comparison of two ideaticle sources to two identiclye displays that have both been professionally calibrated, but with one sourrce being passed through an AV receiver. Maybeeven using one display and professional calibration equipment to measure the sresulting picture and or video displayed?
 
D

Deleted member 39241

Guest
Yeah, but the OP also said that he was using the same cable. I'd imagine it would have been more intuative for him to have simply unplugged it from the AV receiver and plug it into the source than it would have been to unplug it from both the TV and the AV receiver and insert it into a different input on the TV?
We can't assume intuitiveness though.

Actually, often the TV ports are more accessible than the ports on the rear of an AVR.
 

Al Davison

Novice Member
Yeah, but the OP also said that he was using the same cable. I'd imagine it would have been more intuative for him to have simply unplugged it from the AV receiver
Exactly. Maybe something is wrong with my unit.🤔 The picture from the cable box to the TV is very clear, but the picture from the avr is not the same when using the same cable. The difference is not as clear. I turned off upscaling and that helped a lot, but the picture quality is still not the same. Therefore, something is going on in there. I turned-off everything from the AVR's menu to were I can only use the front panel only. The picture quality is still not the same from the AVR like it is from the cable box.

Is there a way to use only the audio from the TV to AVR while the cable box, NAS and other devices provide the video to the TV?
 

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