Need advice with new Yamaha mini hifi and sub setup

Discussion in 'Hi-Fi Stereo Systems & Separates' started by Alex34, Jan 5, 2019.

  1. Alex34

    Alex34
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    So I decided to pull the trigger on a mini hifi unit I've been looking at for a few months. It's the Yamaha MCR-N870D... it's basically a mini component system put together by Yamaha with a Network CD player (CD-NT670D), Amp (AU670) and bookshelf speakers (NS-BP401).

    I was previously using my Yamaha YSP1600 soundbar and Cambridge Audio Aero 9 powered sub to play music. Now, I really love music, I am a big fan of Yamaha Musiccast and being able to use Tidal streaming with it but I am no means an audiophile or even close to one... as you will see from my questions :)

    I was planning on using my Aero 9 sub with the soundbar and hifi, obviously one at a time. I set the hifi unit up and connected it to my sub via the LFE input as it was with my soundbar... and it sounded absolutely horrible! I was pretty sure it shouldn't sound like that so I consulted the sub's manual and it advises to connect pre-out (RCA) to Line input (RCA) when connecting to hifi. Now my first question is if the amp has a dedicated sub out (single RCA) should that be preferably used instead of the pre-out coming from the Network CD unit?

    Not having any stackable RCA cables to hand I was not able to try the sub manual's set up as there is only one pair of RCA outs and that is being used to send audio to the amp. The only thing I could try was the single Sub cable from sub out on amp to one of the RCA inputs (red) on the subwoofer. It sounded a hell of a lot better after trying this and more like how it should sound. Question 2 is should I actually connect my sub this way (sub out to single red RCA input on subwoofer)? And is this connection representative of what the system will sound like if I connected it as recommended (RCA pre-out to RCA input on sub). Will it sound better if connected as recommended?

    The other question is about Pure Direct. I've read many articles claiming it is the bee's knees but it just sounds very plain and flat to me. The music I was playing was VMA lossless files via Musiccast. I preferred leaving Pure Direct off with the bass and treble tuning a bit higher than "central". Am I missing something with Pure Direct, not doing something correctly or is it really just a very subjective feature?

    Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
     
  2. Joe Fernand

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    The single RCA Subwoofer Output on the Yamaha Amp should be connected to the singe RCA LFE Input on the Sub.

    As the Yamaha Amp has no Sub 'settings' you need to use the Controls on the Sub to 'blend' the Sub with the Yamaha speakers - which go deeper than you would expect for a relatively small cabinet.

    You may find you prefer the system without the Sub - budget Subs which do 'OK' for Movie effects are not always a great option for Music playback.

    Joe
     
  3. Alex34

    Alex34
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    Thanks for the reply Joe!

    I tried adjusting the sub when connected via LFE but I couldn't get it to sound right at all. I pretty much had to turn the hz up and the volume way down. When connected to the soundbar the hz is set about 25-30 and volume at 50%. With the hifi via LFE I have to set it around 120-130hz and volume at about 20-25%.

    To be honest, without the sub, the hifi unit doesn't sound that much better than the soundbar + sub does. It certainly doesn't produce the punchy bass and certainly not worth spending an extra £700 to have a stand alone unit for music.

    Not sure what you guys consider to be not a budget sub but the Cambridge was £300 when I bought it and with the spec I thought it would be considered a solid unit.

    Is there any major differences to look out for that would differentiate a quality home cinema sub vs a quality hifi sub?
     
  4. Alex34

    Alex34
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    I guess the real question at this point would be was I wrong in thinking this hifi unit would be massively better than my soundbar + sub for playing music?
     
  5. RBZ5416

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    First things first, check & double-check the speaker wiring is correct. ie for each speaker make sure that the red/+ve is connected to the same on the amp. Easy to switch one by accident & that will ruin the sound. Then look at speaker placement, where do you have the speakers?

    If that's correct then without wanting to sound condescending, you may just need to give yourself time to adjust to a more HiFi sound than maybe the bass-heavy boom that the soundbar/sub was providing. Without the sub connected, try settling down & listening to the music rather than the sound. That is concentrate on what you can hear rather than what you feel is missing. Hopefully you should start to appreciate a more balanced sound & enjoy extra detail. The Direct mode is to be used however you see fit.

    Should add that I've never heard this system & it may be pants. But it may just be that this particular system doesn't suit you. Shows the importance of listening to a prospective purchase first.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2019
  6. Alex34

    Alex34
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    I'm pretty sure the loudspeakers are wired correct... I took my time setting it up but will recheck when I am back at home. The system is currently on the floor in my lounge as we are doing a bit of redecorating and the sideboard that will potentially be its home is still being made. I thought about this having an ill affect on sound quality as well so will have a play about later. My flooring is solid bamboo, not sure if that would make a dramatic difference?

    You're not being condescending at all. I am in no means an expert or even close to being one... that's why I'm asking for advice. You may be right in that l've gotten so use to the soundbar + sub for music that I'm using it as a benchmark when I shouldn't be. I do know what sounds good to me though and at the moment this unit doesn't have me excited.

    I tried to find a shop that had this unit in stock to demo but could never find one close enough to me. RicherSounds only special orders them and the lead time I was given was two weeks. In hindsight I should have just waited the two weeks but Peter Tyson had them in stock via an online purchase and assured me they would refund if I didn't like it so the trigger was pulled. Then again, what it sounds like in a purposed built small demo room doesn't always represent what it would sound like in my lounge.

    Thanks for the advice. Will have a play about later and hopefully I can find a fix because I really wanted this unit to be what I was looking for and wanted it to work with my existing sub.
     
  7. Alex34

    Alex34
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    Can anyone recommend some similarly priced packages that I would more than likely be able to demo at a Richer Sounds? Something I can use as a comparison to the Yamaha?
     
  8. RBZ5416

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    Speakers on the floor is probably the worst possible scenario. Can you use chairs/stools to raise them up, even if only as a temporary measure to see how they sound then? A sideboard isn't great either so whatever you end up with, you'll probably need some form of isolation to decouple the speaker cab.

    RS put together packages of their own so probably best to arrange a time with them when they're quitter for a demo. Does it have to be a small system & do you want to stick to MusicCast?
     
  9. Alex34

    Alex34
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    Propping them up on chairs was what I had planned. What do you mean by decoupling the speaker cab?

    I could possibly go a bit bigger but not too much as I don't want to clutter the lounge. The angles of the room and plug placements are a bit funny as is and I am already having to be creative.

    Musiccast was a big buying point for me as it allows me to continue using a controller I like and am use to and with Tidal streaming. I've always had good luck with Yamaha products up until this point but it may be the temporary set up or it's just not what suits me. I listen to a lot of "big sound" types of music... 90's Rock and Metal, Pop, Hip-hop, Reggae, some club mixes and Funk. I like room shaking sound but quality room shaking sound... as quality as I can get for what I am prepared to spend. I also like a bit of Blues.
     
  10. RBZ5416

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    Decoupling is isolating the speaker cabinet from whatever it's sitting on. Without it a sideboard is likely to resonate with the speaker.
     
  11. Alex34

    Alex34
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    Ah ha.
     
  12. Alex34

    Alex34
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  13. Alex34

    Alex34
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    So I've propped the speakers up on two chairs and they are about ear level whilst I sit on the sofa. It definitely has made a difference and my ear is beginning to warm to the clarity vs the booming sound of my previous set up, however, there is still a lack of low end for me.

    The speakers are very bright when faced head on and the highs seem to drown out the lows and punchy bass notes. If I stand up they immediately become apparent as well as if I sit at an angle to the side of the speakers. This is mostly while in Pure Direct mode or when the treble and bass are centralised.

    If I tune the bass to halfway + and treble to quarter way + I start to get what I'm looking for but at a cost of the sound becoming slightly harsh, especially compared to Pure Direct mode. Pure Direct seems restrictive to me and I'm sure more beneficial to certain types of music but I want to feel what I'm listening to as well.

    All this being said, is the weak point of the system likely the speakers or the amp? Meaning, if I were given an option to swap out the speakers for a more robust sounding pair would that be a viable option? Or should I just look at something altogether more suited for my tastes, perhaps a regular component hifi system?
     
  14. RBZ5416

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    You say that the sound is too bright in direct mode but you then turn the treble up. That doesn't make any sense to me.

    If you're saying that the sound balance improves when you stand up then that is symptomatic of poor room acoustics. Possibly you have a bass null in your listening position. Short of acoustic treatments the only solution to that is to move the speakers & or the listening position. Not always practical I know.

    I don't think you're going to get to "feel" the music with any other comparable speaker. Small bookshelf models simply can't generate frequencies that low. So that brings us back to the sub. Unfortunately the modern way of all things tech is to produce scant user manuals barely worthy of the description. Having viewed both for the amp & sub I see that Yamaha & CA have followed this trend. There is absolutely no information from Yamaha about what's coming out of the sub socket & precious little from CA re setting their sub up. So I'd suggest asking Yamaha to confirm if this signal if filtered with a crossover or simply a mono, full range. Then once you have that you can go to CA with the info & check how best to set the sub. But as @Joe Fernand said earlier, blending a sub into a stereo setup can be tricky.

    You can't use the line out from the CDP to drive the sub as it (presumably) has no volume control. So when you change volume on the amp you'll have to change volume manually on the sub as well. You need pre-outs on the amp which aren't present on that model.
     
  15. Alex34

    Alex34
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    The brightness in direct mode is different in comparison to increasing the treble. I don't know how to explain it properly but it is as if the highs in the tweeter is amplified and the mids subdued vs the highs in the tweeter and mids being adjusted together when manually tuning the treble. Like louder vs tinier and brighter as an example.

    I know there are issues with positioning as I had quiet a bit of fun trying to find a sweet spot for my sub. Unfortunately it won't be practical for me to do the same with loudspeakers.

    The manuals are completely useless. I have a few guys in Yamaha tech support I talk to from time to time that I can call tomorrow but to be honest I'm starting to look at other options. Peter Tyson has quite a few bundle deals using Yamaha's R-N803D and R-N602D network amplifiers paired with other bookshelf and tower speakers. At this point I don't mind spending a few extra hundred quid to get what I'm looking for. I just have very little to go on regarding how the other speakers perform and will have to rely on reviews and advice.

    I really have to thank you for taking the time out to help me with this. Your advice has been invaluable in this process.

    If I were to go for a network amp like the R-N803 which is in the £550 range, could you advise on a suitable pair of speakers in the £400 - £500 range? Suitable for what I'm looking for.
     
  16. Alex34

    Alex34
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    The brightness in direct mode is different in comparison to increasing the treble. I don't know how to explain it properly but it is as if the highs in the tweeter is amplified and the mids subdued vs the highs in the tweeter and mids being adjusted together when manually tuning the treble. Like louder vs tinier and brighter as an example.

    I know there are issues with positioning as I had quiet a bit of fun trying to find a sweet spot for my sub. Unfortunately it won't be practical for me to do the same with loudspeakers.

    The manuals are completely useless. I have a few guys in Yamaha tech support I talk to from time to time that I can call tomorrow but to be honest I'm starting to look at other options. Peter Tyson has quite a few bundle deals using Yamaha's R-N803D and R-N602D network amplifiers paired with other bookshelf and tower speakers. At this point I don't mind spending a few extra hundred quid to get what I'm looking for. I just have very little to go on regarding how the other speakers perform and will have to rely on reviews and advice.

    I really have to thank you for taking the time out to help me with this. Your advice has been invaluable in this process.

    If I were to go for a network amp like the R-N803 which is in the £550 range, could you advise on a suitable pair of speakers in the £400 - £500 range? Suitable for what I'm looking for.
     
  17. Alex34

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  18. RBZ5416

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    At least the R-N803 publishes a crossover figure of 90Hz, but again is totally devoid of any help with setting up a sub. It does however have Yamaha's room correction software built in & that may go some way to mitigating the room acoustics.

    Speakers it's impossible to say. They have the greatest impact on sound of any single component so it comes down to individual preference, together with how they sound in your room. Given that there do appear to be room issues the sub may be the way to go as you can at least move that.

    But we still have the issue of a lack of proper crossover. In an AV amp the crossover frequency determines what is sent to the main speakers & what is sent to the sub. Typically on a stereo amp only the sub is filtered. So in the case of the R-N803, frequencies below 90Hz will be sent to the sub but full range will always be sent to the main pair. So frequencies between the speakers' lowest response & 90Hz will be duplicated by the sub. Depending on the room & positioning that could possibly bloat those frequencies or cancel each other out. So you then have to try to blend the sub with it's own crossover.

    I think my recommendation could only go as far as finding somewhere with the amp in stock that is happy for you to take your sub in to test with. Then secure a home demo because as you said yourself, what sounds good in a demo room doesn't necessarily work in yours.
     
  19. RBZ5416

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    Cross posted so check my last post in case you missed it.

    Didn't think you had room for floorstanders. Not heard them but the specs go down to 34Hz so theoretically should do away with the need for the sub. But I would imagine from what you've posted previously that you'll have even less flexibility in the placement. So if there is indeed a null in your listening position you may not be much better off. The only way to find out will be to try it but I really can't recommend buying blind. As I said above speakers really do sound different so you really owe it to yourself to listen to some alternatives.
     
  20. Alex34

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    *The room is 3.6m wide by 5.2m long with a bay window on one of the long sides (bay window not included in measurement).
     
  21. Alex34

    Alex34
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    Many thanks for the info!

    I told the guy from Peter Tyson that if I could get away with not using the sub for the Hifi I would go for tower speakers, just to eliminate any issues I may encounter with my sub not syncing with the speakers. He said the three drivers of the Bronze 6 will move a lot of air and two of them being bass drivers should eliminate the need for a sub.

    If I have to juggle some furniture in the room to get what I want then so be it... the wife will have to understand :). If I am going to spend a grand on audio I will have to make it work for me. If not then I would just stick to my soundbar + sub.

    As for speaker placement, I always thought the loudspeakers had to be front facing and right and left sides of your listening position? How much can you actually get away with outside of that? Are there things I can do to the room to improve acoustics? Sort of like utilising acoustic panels in a studio but short me hanging acoustic panels in my lounge, lol.

    I'm gonna go to Richer Sounds in a few minutes just to see what they have and what I can listen to. Push comes to shove I can always send the equipment back to Peter Tyson or Richer Sounds.

    As for a home demo, I doubt Peter Tyson would be able to assist as they are up north and I am down south. Will speak with Richer Sounds about it.
     
  22. RBZ5416

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    The best starting placement in a room of like that would be to have the speakers along one of the short walls with the listening position the same distance away as the speakers are apart. So it forms an equilateral triangle. But don't have the speakers right in the corners or tight up against side walls. So yes, you should be sitting in the centre. In your current setup that seems to present a problem but if you have some flexibility on placement you should be able to eliminate that. There's endless placement guides out there but here's one from CA to start.

    The Art of Positioning Speakers

    Sorry to say that hard floors aren't a great help either so you may want to consider a rug to absorb/diffuse reflections from that.
     
  23. Alex34

    Alex34
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    Thanks.

    The difference in acoustics after we installed the flooring was immediately noticeable and can still be slightly echo-ish at times. I knew this was going to be an issue but because or our lifestyle and the fact we have two small dogs, it makes more sense for us to have the hard flooring. Is there any type of speakers that work better with hard floors?

    Spoke with a few Richer Sounds close to me and one of them has the Yamaha amp and MA speakers in stock to demo so will stop by at 2pm to have a go. Bringing my sub along too.
     
  24. RBZ5416

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    Not really. The issue is that sound will reflect off any hard surface so you really need to keep them to a minimum. Maybe a washable rug? Or a random thought, dog beds mid-way between the listening position & speakers would possibly help.
     
  25. Alex34

    Alex34
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    Ok, duly noted!

    Looking at the space we have and size of the Bronze 6, it's gonna be a tight squeeze. Could bookshelf speakers be hung from the ceiling with no ill affects? Looking at the MA Silver 100 running with my sub as an option.
     
  26. RBZ5416

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    To get the best from bookshelf speakers they really need to be on proper stands. This often takes up as much space as a floorstander. The Silver 100 is both wider & deeper than the Bronze 6!

    Speakers need to be fixed firmly in space so suspending them from the ceiling will likely mean screwing a mount to a joist. That will potentially transfer energy into the ceiling. Same principle we touched with isolation from the sideboard only worse, as this could travel upstairs/next door!

    Wall mounting can work if you have solid walls but you then lose any flexibility for fine tuning positioning.
     
  27. Alex34

    Alex34
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    Yeah, after demoing a few speakers today I'd say wall or ceiling mounting is out of the question.

    Spent two hours at RS demoing speakers... all through the Yamaha R-N803 network amp.

    The MA Bronze 6 are actually narrower than I thought and would work out just fine, placement wise. They sound good and I don't believe I will need a sub with these speakers for music. It is a bit bright but clear and the lows are wide but not boomy. The low/mids could be better but to be honest I might not have noticed it if it wasn't for the other speakers I tested.

    In the demo room there just happened to be a pair of Focal Aria 906 on stands which looked interesting. The sales rep's face lit up when I asked about them. They were impressive to say the least! Clarity and balance were really great. Vocals were easily better than the others I tested. Bass was controlled in a good way and had power. Highs were bright but balanced and the mids were best out of the speakers tested.

    Tested the MA Silver 100 as well but they were quite bulky as you said in your other post. They took up the most room out of the bunch. Bass was really good but the middle ground wasn't as good as the Bronze 6 nor the Focal 906. It was mostly bass and highs but really good bass and highs. The bulkiness put me off a bit though.

    Revel Concerta2 M16 was the other set I tested and was very close in comparison to the Focal 906. The bass was wider though and more room filling, not by a great deal much though. Vocals weren't as good as the Focal but only slightly. They were £1000 and not sure if I agreed with that especially after listening to the Focals.

    Form factor, the Bronze 6 fit the bill but I cannot deny the upgrade in quality with the Focal. So I am torn at the moment. Price wise the Focal setup is almost £300 more (plus whatever stands I get for them) than if I were to take the Bronze 6 bundle. I'm concerned that the Focal's bass may not be enough when set up in my lounge though. I don't think my CA sub works well with hifi so not really looking to utilise it anymore. For that reason the Silver 100 is still a contender. and is roughly the same price as the Bronze 6 bundle.

    Any thoughts?
     
  28. RBZ5416

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    First thought is now you know why someone else can't tell you which speakers to buy! ;)

    Not sure how there's a £300 difference when there's only £70 between the speakers?

    Focal ARIA 906 (Noyer Walnut)

    Monitor Audio BRONZE 6 (Walnut)

    Maybe worth a call to the store to check the pricing & maybe also to the online team. Another option is to look at used.

    Unfortunately there's only one way to find out if they'll work in your room.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2019
  29. Alex34

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    Yes indeed! Very subjective.

    The difference in price is due to the Bronze 6 bundle being discounted as a deal at £950. There's no bundle deal with the Focal speakers so it's the advertised price at Peter Tyson and RS.

    Peter Tyson said they would be able to take off £100 quid though.
     
  30. Alex34

    Alex34
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    So... I ended up going with the Yamaha R-N803D and MA Bronze 6 bundle. For the money it made the most sense and I'm happy I did. It produces the sound I was looking for and doesn't take up a load of space. Quite happy and Peter Tyson were spot on with their service.

    Thanks again to RBZ5416 and Joe for all the advice!
     

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