Need advice setting up simple home system HDMI or CAT6

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devan143

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Originally posted in the wrong place...re-posting here (sorry)

Hi - this is my first post and I really need some advice - my head is spinning with all the reading I've been doing. Here is my situation - I'm trying to figure out the best plan.

I only recently purchase flat screen TVs for my house and have come to realize that the digital signal to my TVs is not strong enough for an HD picture. So I am not even using HD cable boxes currently. Turns out the coax into my house is split 6000 times inside the walls, cable runs under carpeting from one room to the next, etc. It's just a mess. So my first task is to have my coax rewired in my house. I want to come in through the attic, go through an amp/splitter and run the coax from the attic to each of 6 rooms in my house (5 rooms on main floor of ranch and 1 room in the basement). That seemed like a simple enough plan....

But now Cablevision requires each TV to have a box in order to watch TV. There are only 2 people in my home so I do not want to pay for 6 cable boxes. So i would like to pay for 2 boxes and locate them in a closet that is pretty central to the other rooms. I want to run 2 coax cables into that closet for the boxes and then split the signal from each box to 3 TVs (for a total of 6 TVs). I would also like to have a bluray player in the closet that goes through a splitter to 4 TVs (not all 6). I am estimating that with going up through the attic and back down to the rooms, I would have three 30 ft runs, two 50 ft runs, and one 60ft run to basement (i'm hoping it's not more than 60ft).

This also seems pretty straightforward to me and i have come up with 2 set ups but every day I'm changing my mind based on what I read. I have an electrician who will do all the wiring for me when he comes to do other electrical work - but he is not an A/V guy so I need to figure out what i want him to do! Seriously, it's keeping me up at night :confused:

Should I run HDMI cable or CAT6 cable from the closet to the rooms????

If I run HDMI cables I could get the Redmere cables from Monoprice and 3 splitters like this one:
For only $58.59 each when QTY 50+ purchased - 1X4 HDMI® Splitter with 3D and 4K Support

If I run CAT6 cable I could get this HDMI to CAT6 extender kit for each device:
For only $150.65 each when QTY 50+ purchased - 1x4 HDMI® Amplifier Splitter over CAT5e/CAT6 Complete Solution Kit - Extend Upto 164ft

Am I on the right track with either set up??? If so, which is best and why???

Both of these setups are similar cost so that's not really a deciding factor. I really just want a solution that's going to work!!! I am a middle aged woman who just wants to be able to watch TV in whatever room I choose and have a clear picture...I'm hoping that's not too much to ask!!!

PLEASE HELP!!!! :lease:

Thanks in advance....
Chris Ann
 
Simple rule of thumb: For runs longer than 9m then use HDMI to Cat6 baluns or similar rather than HDMI. HDMI tends to become a bit ropey over distances of more than 9m (approx. 29'6") and you'll more often than not get signal dropouts, especially in relation to 1080p and/or HD 3D signals.. You can buy HDMI to Cat6 convertors for a lot less than it would cost you to purchase enough HDMI cabling to cable an entire house. There are also matrix boxes on the market that also incorporate the same type of conversion.
 
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Thanks for your reply - the only reason that I am still even considering HDMI is because I read about the Redmere cables. They have gotten great reviews. They have a chip on one end that draws a small amount of power from the source and therefore can carry the signal greater distances. They are also very slim (the cable). Are you familiar with them?

I was fine with the HDMI to CAT6 conversion set up as well - but then I read that the single CAT6 converters can lose signal too.

If I do the HDMI to CAT6 set up is the product/splitter that I included a link to in my post a good choice? If not, can you recommend equipment?

Thank you!
 
I could point you at some options, but I'm guessing that you are located in the USA? This board is primarily frequented by UK members so this makes it diffocult to give you the specific equipment list you require. Hopefully another member may be able to help?
 
Yes I am located in the USA - I didn't realize this board was primarily a UK forum :rolleyes:

With regard to the HDMI / CAT6 option - can I run single CAT6 for each device or does it work better with 2 CAT6 for each device? I know that a balun is the little receiver thingy - but do they make splitters with 2 CAT6 output for each device? I'm trying to get an idea of how this works. The only thing I've seen when I search on 1x4 splitter options is the link that i posted which splits the HDMI input into 4 single CAT6 outputs. The product got good reviews but I read somewhere about single CAT6 not being the best solution so it's scaring me.
 
You're welcome here but there are similar forums in the US where you'll find more relevant information.
I agree with dante about CAT cable as preferable to HDMI.
 
Thanks for the welcome :clap: can you direct me to an AV forum here in the USA?

I'm not opposed to the CAT6 thing (in fact I prefer to go that route) - I am just confused/concerned about the 2 cable vs 1 cable runs and if it matters.

Thanks again :D
 
hello Chris Ann, please don't lose sleep over an AV system.

I am an electronics engineer and professional CI (twenty years plus experience, I post photo examples of my work regularly when helping people) and here is my advice.

I presume you are confused because of the old fashioned idea, which is rife on all the forums, that HDMI cables only work up to a certain length.
I had some idiot telling me the other day that a HDMI cable is only reliable up to 9 metres because he sits in his office Googling everything as opposed to being out there installing HD distribution systems in pure HDMI format as I do.

In the early days of HDMI said cables where indeed unreliable so installers chose CATx solutions which were marginally better but not without problems.
I presently use CAT5/6 for continual lengths over 50metres using HDbase T format but if there is a break point available I will cascade 25 metre lengths of HDMI cable.
I have used 3 x 25metre active wire HDMI cables cascaded to achieve trouble free 1080p performance from a Playstation to a Samsung ES 8000 TV.

So I think you have guessed already, I recommend the HDMI cable setup.
That is exactly how I service TV's with high bandwidth HD signals day in day out and HDMI cables from a good supplier are totally reliable to work over the lengths you are talking about.

FYI I use HD Connectivity active wire series (available in the USA) up to 25metre lengths and presume your supplier has a good reputation.

Yours is a relatively simple system but there are one or two things you may not have thought about IE. how you are to control the cable boxes from each room (not sure how they do that in the USA) and advanced features you may or may not need at this point.

CAT6 cable is relatively inexpensive so get your electrician to run the HDMI cables and additionally 3 x CAT6 cables and one coax to each room from your closet.

I guarantee you will have covered all bases whatever your requirements and what new technology throws at you for the foreseeable future.
The redundant CAT6 cables will come in handy later for advanced features or things you maybe haven't thought about IE. network points for Smart TV's etc.

I also suggest you put the RF amp splitter in the closet and service each room with digital signals from there if possible but it's not critical you do that.

So get some sleep woman!! and don't hesitate to query any of my advice.

Kind regards

Steve
 
There's no definitive optimum length for HDMI cables, but the longer the cable the more likely issues are to arise. There are plenty of posts to this board and others that stand testament to this.


Running Long Cable Lengths
Like all HDMI-enabled components, cables must be tested to meet the Compliance Test Standards set by the HDMI Licensing, LLC. Cables must successfully pass a signal of a certain strength (Standard cable must deliver a signal of 17Mhz; High Speed must deliver a signal of 340Mhz) to pass compliance.

The HDMI specification does not dictate cable length requirements. Different cables can successfully send HDMI signals various distances, depending on the quality of the design and construction. As well, HDMI compliance testing assumes “worst case” scenarios – testing with components who have minimally performing HDMI electronics. That is why you may see cables in the market that claim to successfully pass an HDMI signal at very long lengths. This may be true using certain quality CE components on each end, but may not work in every case. It is best to test entire systems before installing.

Active Cables & Boosters
Using active electronics to boost and clean up the signal can effectively double the range of a standard twisted-copper HDMI cable. Cable runs of up to 30 meters are the norm for this type of solution, which may be deployed as either a standalone signal management device, i.e., a repeater or booster box, or incorporated into the manufacture of the cable itself. Boxes are available in many configurations, usually incorporating both booster and equalization functions, and may also serve as repeaters or switchers. Active cables, on the other hand, embed the signal-enhancement electronics in the cable itself, with chips embedded in the connector housings. They are unidirectional, using different modules at the transmit and receive ends of the cable. All the technologies in this category require external power.

Beware products that draw power from the +5V power line. Although these may work in certain applications, different components draw varying amount of power from that line to communicate with each other. A cable that draws power from the HDMI cable may fail when components and the active components in the cable or external booster are all drawing from the same source.

HDMI over Cat 5/6
Runs of up to 50 meters can be achieved by sending the HDMI signal over a run of Cat 5/6 networking cable, using special adapters designed for this purpose. As with the active cable solutions discussed above, they incorporate booster and equalization electronics at each end of the path, and require external power. Because of its tighter manufacturing tolerances, Cat 6 cable is generally preferred over Cat 5 in these applications.

HDMI over coax
This technique consists of a transmitter / receiver pair that convert HDMI signals for transmission over RGBHV or RGBS coaxial cables. The benefits of this solution are long reach (up to 300 feet at 1080p resolutions), the ability to easily terminate connections in the field, and an easy upgrade path for existing RGBHV or RGBS coaxial installations in office or commercial installations.

HDMI over Fiber
The longest HDMI cable runs seen to date have been achieved using fiber-optic cable, which is far less susceptible to attenuation and interference than copper. Electrically it is similar to an active cable or Cat 5/6 solution, the principal difference being the higher-quality optical cabling between the transmit and receive connectors. HDMI over fiber is a highly robust solution, effective in cable runs up to 100 meters or more.

HDMI :: Installers :: Running Long Cable Lengths


What Does the HDMI Spec say about Length?

A tale used to be heard from time to time to the effect that the DVI and HDMI specs give a maximum distance of 15 feet. This isn't true. The HDMI spec, in fact, gives no explicit length limit, but the requirements of the spec implicitly give rise to some length limitations for "compliant" cables. A cable isn't permitted to degrade the signal past a certain point--that point is a bit hard to put one's finger on, because a cable is deemed spec compliant if it meets either of two tests: an "eye-pattern" test which measures the overall shape of the HDMI waveform at the cable output, or a set of parametric tests which measure the attenuation and other losses in the signal.

This "implicit" limitation on cable length, of course, is dependent on the limits of what can be done in the way of cable design. HDMI cable testing by the HDMI Authorized Testing Centers results in issuance of Compliance Testing Certificates, which are something of a guide to available cable lengths. The longest HDMI cable we have ever seen a compliance test certificate for is our own Series-1, which passed ATC testing at 45 feet under HDMI 1.3a (CTS 1.3b1); apart from that, the longest we've seen, after seeking these from all of the many vendors who try to sell us HDMI cable, are some 40-foot certificates issued under HDMI Version 1.2, which was a slightly easier test to pass because of changes to the test protocols which came into effect with 1.3.

"Now, wait," you may be saying after that last paragraph, "your 45-foot cable can't be the longest compliant cable. I see 50-foot and longer cables around all the time." It's true that there are a lot of 50-foot cables on the market, and there are a lot of vendors who play fast and loose with the compliance issue. If you really think your vendor has a compliant 50-foot HDMI cable, ask him for a copy of his compliance testing certificate, which will show the distance for which he's passed testing, and under what spec version. If you find a 50-foot compliant cable (with no booster or EQ unit; more about that below), let us know; we have never found a single one, and we are pretty sure there's no such thing.

There are, of course, "active" HDMI cables on the market also. These typically involve use of a powered amplifier which may or may not incorporate an EQ unit to compensate for the loss of high-frequency information. We don't know what the longest lengths passing compliance testing are in products of that type, though we have seen active connectivity solutions which run considerable distances, the longest of them using fiber optic cable and costing a bundle. Our attitude toward active solutions has generally been that it's better to do without, if one can. These amplifiers and EQs provide new potential points for failure in signal delivery, and make diagnosis of problems more complex; still, if you need to run extreme distances, these types of solutions may work for you.

http://www.bluejeanscable.com/articles/how-long-can-hdmi-run.htm


Another point to take into consideration is what HDMI devices are you using? I recently read a post where Marantz recommended not using HDMI cables longer than 6m with their AV receivers! Lengths that work with one device may not perform as well with others. Also note that 1080i or 720p will go a lot further than a 1080p 0r HD 3D signal over HDMI. I'd hazard that 4K and ultra HD will make usable lengths even shorter and I'd not be wiring my house entirely using nothing but HDMI cables. There are also practcalities of wiring HDMI to consider too. You need to buy terminated cables that cannot be easily routred through walls. Cat6 baluns are far easier to handle than HDMI.

In regards as to whether to use a single or double run of Cat6, I'd suggest double if runs are to be longer than 15m. I'd probably suggest using double runs full stop, they do seem to perform better than the single run options. I'm no expert though and you'll probably get a better answer from someone who does installations involving baluns and has practical experience of both? Apparently 2 run baluns can extend the original 16 wires with a boost, but single run baluns have to use signal multiplexing or a custom protocol to run 16 wires over 8 wires?

This may be of interest:

Cat 5 & 6: Why Do We Need Two for HDMI?

Why do we need two Cat 5 cables when using Cat 5 converters? This is actually very easy to understand.

The entire interface has a total of 19 pins. All but one of them are used.

You would think that if the HDMI connector has 18 active pins, then it must need 18 wires. Wrong. It really only needs 14.

What many don't take into account is the fact that out of the 18 wires, five of them are ground.

You can actually get by with just one ground. That eliminates four wires, dropping the total under 16.

Do the math: Cat 5 only has four twisted pair or eight individual wires. Since we need 14 at a minimum, we need to use two Cat 5s to handle the entire HDMI signal requirement.

In some products, the four extra wires are connected to ground anyway. That increases the return current path -- which is always good JuJu.

Many products have defined these two Cat 5 cables as being for video and data/supply respectively.

So, you basically have one cable that is highly critical for video integrity and timing where the opposite cable is not as frequency-dependent, handling only the EDID, HDCP, power, hot plug and ground.

Moving deeper into the connections, you will find many products use the typical network Cat 5 standard, which is 568A or B. This, however, can become an issue for video integrity.

Since the blue or green pairs are split in both schemes, it may split two twisted TMDS pairs -- and that could screw up timing and really screwing up integrity by being two opposed balanced pairs.

Ouch!

http://www.cepro.com/article/cat_5_6_why_do_we_need_two_for_hdmi/
 
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Hi Dante01 thank you for your input and detailed but flawed references.

I can argue against everything in your post IE. the old chestnut about drawing current from the 5v rail on HDMI sockets etc. but I can't be bothered.
Again this was true back in the day but providing you haven't just been defrosted having been in cryogenic suspension this last two years and you are out there installing HDMI infrastructures as we speak you will know otherwise.

The problem with all of these outdated opinions is that the facts are, modern companies are selling very long lengths of HDMI cables which are working reliably and I am out there using them in the real world everyday.

Let me ask you a question.
How many 16 x TV installations have you done in one house with 3 x HD feeds over HDMI cables to each set.
One of the TV's is in a River Lounge (by the river) and is 90 metres away (45 metres, the last leg is underground) from the AV hub.

I am not aware of anybody reporting HDMI cable problems on AV forums this last year so please direct me to them.
If so I would guess they have purchased cheap un branded cables but let's see.
I am however aware of people reporting lot's of problems with HDMI over CAT x solutions and can direct you to them.

Let me ask you a question.
When I took delivery of 10 x long length HDMI leads from HD Connectivity last Thursday, installed them Friday to service 5 x TV's then collected my cheque are you seriously suggesting :

1) HD Connectivity and other successful companies are deluded, selling products that don't work and their customers are sending them back.
(I certainly haven't seen any complaints.)

2) I am insane and we are not actually seeing good pictures on all sets from two 1080 sources.

3) The client is also an idiot, thanked and paid me despite the fact his pictures are unstable or dropping out.

Awaiting your answer.

Anyway, I have invited other 'experts' who never turn up so let's see if you are different.
I cordially invite you to inspect any installation of mine (I work all over the UK) using my 'magic' cables in order for you to balance yours and other peoples theories.

Presuming you won't take up me offer I am prepared to send you a 25 metre active wire HDMI cable FOC and trust you to test it in 1080p.
When it passes the test I will expect you to pay me double the cost of the cable.

IMO dante01 like a lot of people before you are just confusing people with your Google searches.

Over to you Dante

Regards

Steve
 
Information is welcome.
Personal comments are not.
Please keep any posts strictly on topic.
Any that divert will be deleted.
Logiciel
 
Sorry, but you appear to want to argue the toss S D I. Whether you agree with me or not, please learn some manners! Unlike your HDMI cables, they cost nothing.


I don't write the HDMI specifications, HDMI do and they advise not to use long runs.


Cheap and unbranded? Cost has nothing to do with anything and there are plenty of cables available that don't cost a fortune and work. Cables need to be certified, not branded or expensive! Maybe you need to do some Googling about HDMI certification and categorisation?


Regardless of whether laying HDMI runs or any form of cabling, it is always preferable to lay an uninterrupted run, i.e. without breaks, repeaters or boosters. The more breaks and additional hardware you employ then the greater the chances of it failing or a fault with that equipment developing.


If you've not encountered issues here in relation to HDMI cable lengths then you are either blind or purposely avoiding them?


By the way, if I were a customer of yours and you spoke to me in the manner you convey yourself here then I'd forcefully remove you from my home! Don't bother replying.



Thanks


You mentioned HD Connectivity as being your HDMI cable supplier. Here's what they say about using long HDMI cable runs for installations:

The thickness and price of HDMI cables often makes them difficult to work with in long distance situations. The HDMI over Twin Cat 5/6 Extender is an easier and often, more cost effective solution - using 2 x runs of inexpensive network cabling to transmit HDMI 1080p + IR up to 50m, or 1080i 100m without any quality loss. HDMI 1.4 video features, including 3D and full HD 1080p are fully supported. HDMI video and audio quality is identical to using a direct HDMI cable - the conversion is fully digital and totally lossless.

http://trade.hdconnectivity.com/hdmi-extenders/disabled-hdmi-over-cat5-cat6-with-ir-extender.html

Standard HDMI cables only have an effective range of up to 8 meters. Anything over this and picture and sound quality starts to degrade. To maintain performance for longer runs of HDMI cable, we have launched ActiveWire a long HDMI cable with a range of up to 25 metres without any loss of signal quality.

http://trade.hdconnectivity.com/hd-...dmi-cable-activewire-high-speed-ethernet.html

The main difference you fail to acknowledge is that you are promoting the use of ACTIVE HDMI cables with inbuilt signal booster, not conventional HDMI cabling! Even the HDMI cable supplier you use advises not to use HDMI cables longer than 8m!
 
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OK Logiciel, I'm very sorry but I am very passionate about what I do and sometimes get agitated when IMO (doesn't make me right) members are getting confused by these sweeping statements about the reliability of HDMI cables.

I am prepared to back up my statements with real life, real world demonstrations as opposed to Googling the subject which a lot of people do.

re. I'd forcefully remove you from my home! Don't bother replying.
charming, it's never happened in over twenty years, I presume it's because all my HDMI infrastructures appear to work and I maybe I'm talking sense.

Look I'm sorry to upset you dante and FYI. I have encountered issues in relation to HDMI cables but that was a million years ago.

Ten years ago when HDMI format was in it's infancy neither TV's (except Pioneer that is) or HDMI hardware like cables were reliable when processing this new format.
As an electronics engineer I persisted and by using work-arounds IE buffers (equally as unreliable BTW.) and injecting 5 volts here and there I was successful.
I already had a 30 metre HD link via HDMI cables in 2004 when the HDMI council announced that HDMI cables over 15metres would not work.
I can honestly say I never used a UTP solution for HD distribution until a year ago when I used HDbaseT for an 80 metre run underground to a gatekeepers office.
I couldn't trust the ducting to stay dry so opted for weatherproof CAT 6 cable.

These days it's totally different.
TV's, hardware, cables, splitters etc have all improved and with an odd exception (unbranded, from an unknown manufacturer) they all handle HDMI format extremely well.

So rather than get upset at an opposing POV and rather childishly saying 'don't bother to reply' why don't you research it a little bit more.
I promise you will be surprised at new products coming on to the market everyday.
It's like dreamland for CI's these days.

I presume my offer to send you a HDMI cable FOC and my questions numbered 1 to 3 are falling on deaf ears which isn't helping your case much but the offer still stands.

Sincere kind regards dante and I apologise for causing us start off on the wrong footing.
 
I'm not adverse to differing opinions or different ways of doing things. I am adverse to the way you are conveying both yourself and your point of view. Up until you started directing your post towards me directly I'd not even mentioned you or your post. As far as HDMI being unproblematic goes, you really should stray into the other forums and take a look. HDMI is probably more of an issue than it ever has been.

If you want the best solution then use fibre, but win the lottery first ;)
 
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As my request has been disregarded, and as OP has been directed to a US forum, the thread is closed.
Logiciel.
 
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