Naz Shah

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by SteakAndCake, Apr 28, 2016.

  1. SteakAndCake

    SteakAndCake
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    Can somebody explain why people are calling Naz Shah anti Semitic? She liked a proposal that a Jewish homeland should exist in the Americas rather than the Middle East. My understanding is that this idea was floated during the founding of Israel and IMO is a far better idea than the total mess we ended up with. It's naive to suggest such a thing could happen now after all these years, but I don't see the idea or support of the idea as racist or anti Semitic.
     
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  2. Hillskill

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    well she felt it necessitated apologising in the House of Commons and has since been suspended from her party. All of politics clearly see the issue.
     
  3. SteakAndCake

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    Yes, it's an issue politically because you can't be seen to offend anybody these days. so for the sake of her job and the party, she apologised. The fact that people think it racist doesn't make it racist though.
     
  4. rustybin

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    Regardless of whether or not it's anti-semitic or racist, it was incredibly misjudged for an MP to get involved in this 'debate', especially with the Labour Party in the state it's in at the moment.
     
  5. Enki

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    I'm afraid the nationalistic dogs are slowly being let off their leashes. It will be hard if not impossible to get back to heel. Nasty politics is back...
     
  6. SteakAndCake

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    and yet Boris can make racist remarks (in written statements written by himself, not just liking a FB post) toward black people and keeps his job?

    The problem here is that 1. She didn't write anything, just liked a FB post. 2. She liked this post before she was an MP or even a candidate; and 3. At worst, it's politically naive, I can't see any racism in the thing she liked. It does seem to me that we have a double standard for racism with ANY slight toward Jews or Israel held to a far higher standard than other religions or races.
     
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  7. Enki

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    Is that right.
     
  8. Sonic67

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    You could also equally ask why the Palestinians aren't all relocated to the US or an Arab country.

    Isn't "relocation" also known as ethnic cleansing?
     
  9. Enki

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    Just like in Syria, hey.
     
  10. Pisto_Grih

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    *subscribes*
     
  11. SteakAndCake

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    1. Israel is on land which has been Arab for centuries
    2. Israel is surrounded by hostile neighbours
    3. The US is very Jew friendly, not so much for other brown middle eastern peoples.

    Anyway, the idea itself is not the issue, that ship has sailed, Israel is a thing, nobody is seriously suggesting Israel is now moved.

    I'm not really interested in whether Israel should be moved or removed but whether suggesting such a thing is racist which I don't think it is. I mean, when the state of Israel was founded, nobody considered it racist to suggest all Jews should leave their home countries and all go live in one place. This was done to give them security of their own home after WWII. Their current situation isn't exactly secure so to suggest they move to a more secure home while implausible and naive, isn't any more racist than the idea of Israel itself.
     
  12. Sonic67

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    Naz Shah: “The Jews Are Rallying”

    Naz shared the post, not just liked it.

    If you follow Guido it seems there was quite a bit.

    MP Naz Shah suspended from Labour - MP Naz Shah suspended from Labour - BBC News

    "In a Facebook post in 2014, Ms Shah shareda graphic showing an image of Israel's outline superimposed on a map of the US under the headline "Solution for Israel-Palestine conflict - relocate Israel into UnitedStates", with the comment "problem solved"."

    "The post was brought to light by the Guido Fawkes website, which also highlighted a post in which she appeared to liken Israeli policies to those of Hitler."
     
  13. SteakAndCake

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    Anybody that doesn't think Israel is acting like Hitler is insane IMO. Without any doubt, Israel committed war crimes and it should not be considered controversial or racist to say so.
     
  14. Sonic67

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    And? We are friendly to the Falkland Islanders. Doesn't mean we should relocate them all here as Argentina is unfriendly.

    Anyway you are dragging this off topic with your personal views on Israel/Palestine. If you want a debate on Israel it would be better in a different thread. Wasn't your point about Naz?

    She's an MP. Her job is to represent her constituents not take it on herself to take a side. I don't think her actions represent Labour so Labour suspended her. You asked the question, that's the answer.
     
  15. SteakAndCake

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    She represented Bradford West. I'm pretty sure her views were shared by a large majority of her constituents. I think she has a very good chance or re-election if she stood as an independent.
     
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  16. Sonic67

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    It's not her job as an MP to denounce other countries actions and set foreign policy. Labour has its own cabinet minsters for that. What she thinks privately is up to her.

    She might have views about a lot of things. When she makes them public it is interpreted as what she is saying as those of a Labour Politician not entirely her.

    Yep, best thing might be stand as an independent, say what she thinks and if elected she has a mandate. Until then she is similar to any other employee and sometimes you have to parrot whatever the party line is.
     
  17. Pisto_Grih

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    Agree. But the newspapers are calling her an anti-semite. Do you agree or disagree?
     
  18. SteakAndCake

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    Yes, this is my point. Not whether Israel should be moved or if Labour should have fired her, but with the fact that the views she supported aren't racist.
     
  19. weaponx031277

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    No shes not on that post but i think some of thee other stuff shes said has come very close.

    Problem we have today is that being critical of Israel and its policies is now getting called anti semitism. I had an argument earlier this year with someone when i said that how the Israelis were treating the Palestinians was wrong. I got called a Jew hater and that person hasn't talked to me since.
     
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  20. Sonic67

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    No idea. I haven't read them, neither do I know her and isn't it down to her party to decide?
     
  21. SteakAndCake

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    There is without doubt a double standard. Social media is packed with Israeli astroturfers who are quick to conflate criticism of Israel with racism.
     
  22. DPinBucks

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    Agree.

    There was a good item about this on Radio 4's 'Today' this morning.

    David Baddiel and a lady rabbi (whose name unfortunately escapes me) discussed this very cogently.

    Between them, they made the point that the media, and many people generally, confuse all the aspects of this and like to simplify them into one all-embracing issue. In fact there are three:
    • Anti-Semitism. This is irrational hatred of the Jews, and is unequivocally racism at its worst.
    • Zionism. The strong yearning for a separate Jewish homeland. A valid desire, but the creation and continued existence of Israel is of course a major bone of contention.
    • Israel itself. In theory just another middle-east country, and as such as open to criticism and comment as any other.
    Baddiel especially emphasised this last point. Israel is not only not immune from criticism; it could be argued that its behaviour and attitude justify much of it. But criticising Israel is NOT anti-Semitism. Unfortunately, it is too easy for Israelis and politicians of any stamp to play that card in order to further their cause. And of course it's meat & drink to the media.

    On the whole they were sympathetic to Shah and prepared to cut her a bit of slack.

    I've just had a quick look to see if I can find a Podcast of the item, but without success. It might be lurking somewhere in the BBC site, though.
     
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    Last edited: Apr 28, 2016
  23. SteakAndCake

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    This is far worse than what Naz Shah did and yet no sanction, job loss, or public outcry

    [​IMG]
     
  24. Rock Da Bass

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    I have no real knowledge on this subject but SteakAndCake is clearly trolling. Let him bump and keep the thread going himself I'd say instead of rising to it....

    (yes, I see the irony of me being the one to respond and bump the thread but hopefully it can now die)
     
  25. Enki

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    She is no perfidious albion unlike her critics.

    I hear Sadiq has gone after lighting rod Ken, resign resign, in typical London Mayor fashion puts himself on the fringe of his party, Zak will have to ramp up more rhetoric attacks on him, could be checkmate now on that one!

    Edit, just seen Mann staged managed attack on Livingstone, not sure what he was more interested in, the camera or where he was walking, I' m sure there are better scripts on Geordie Shaw.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2016
  26. Pisto_Grih

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    Why do you want the thread to die?
     
  27. SteakAndCake

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    I assume because he thinks I'm trolling but I'm not. I genuinely do not think her supported view is racist and nobody here has convinced me otherwise.
     
  28. Pisto_Grih

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    No one will be able to because she hasn't been anti semitic.

    The Tories and their press are panicking over Sadiq Khan winning, and Crosby's tactics of smearing him are having the opposite effect. So they need to broad brush the labour party as anti semitic, seizing on any supposed slight against the Jewish people. Now that anti Zionism is regarded as anti Semitism, its a lot easier for them.
     
  29. simonlewis

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  30. SteakAndCake

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    Absolutely mental. Again, he said something factually historically correct. Something only the most fervent and rabid Zionist would label racist. The Labour party has gone full retard.
     

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