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My special email for Denon - how you can contribute

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by Dimmy, Sep 1, 2003.

  1. Dimmy

    Dimmy
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    Well enough is enough, I'm going insane without PAL Progressive capaibilites on my DVD2800mkII and won't risk dodgy 'Under The Counter' firmware from anybody,

    It's for this reason I plan to write long drawn-out email with regards to the DVD2800mkII to Denon objecting to their cynical marketing ploys and reluctance to release 'proper firmware' for it (when I asked them about it they told me to buy a DVD2900 if I wanted PAL Progressive, the cheek!)

    What the threads for is to ask all people who've had problems with this very player to simply post it and give a brief explanation of what happenned. I'll do the rest and let you know how it goes :)
     
  2. Dimmy

    Dimmy
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    Okay this is as far as I've gotten so far:

    "On July 6th 2003 I sent Denon UK an email via the Denon website enquiring about the availability of Firmware updates for my Denon DVD2800mkII aquired DVD player to enable the output of PAL Progressive scan via its Component Video Outputs. For your own references this email has been pasted below:

    "I bought the Denon AVR1803 AV receiver in January to go with my Wharfedale Diamond speakers and was so happy with the product that I decided to buy a DVD player that matched - namely the DVD2800MKII. I'm very pleased with this product in every area and - due to my imminent purchase of a Progressive Scan Compatible projector - have been reading into ways of updating the player's firmware in order for its component video outputs to output a de-interlaced image with PAL discs. This is where I have learned of several problems arising. Many many users have reported of problems with picture breakup and refusal of the player to play some discs at all after their dealers have attempted to upgrade the firmware for PAL progressive image compatibility. Is there a way I can aquire a firmware update that's guaranteed not to afflict my player in any way? If not I'm quite happy to stick with PAL interlaced pictures (but at the same time I don't want to risk a multiregion firmware update for NTSC progressive images incase similar problems occur to those reported). I've ordered a few region-free NTSC DVD-Video discs. Would my DVD player produce progressive images with these? My sources for learning of the potential problems include user forums on http://www.avforums.com <http://64.4.20.250:80/cgi-bin/linkr...062432345&hm___action=http://www.avforums.com> and http://www.whathifi.com <http://64.4.20.250:80/cgi-bin/linkr...062432345&hm___action=http://www.whathifi.com> . Thankyou for reading my question and I hope you're able to help. Damien Shannon"

    To this I received the following reply from Denon UK:
    "Dear Sir Thank you for your e-mail regarding Denon products. The DVD-2800II has had great reviews in the Hi-Fi press so we were disappointed to hear that you were having problems, firstly Denon UK does not support or get involved with Multi-region Issues we can only sell and support Region 2 units. The Denon DVD-2900 has just realised as a the first Japanese built Region 2 unit which will output PAL Pure Progressive picture. We are hoping that there will be an upgrade available for the DVD-2800II which will give a PAL Pure Progressive Signal out, it is to early to say when this will come into effect but Denon Japan are working on this. Regards Hayden Laboratories"
    This is where my confusion began. The person who wrote the email clearly states that Denon is willing to claim the reliability and performance of the player to be of a very high standard and is using the reference of positive feedback from Reviewers and Hi-Fi Press. It's in these same reviews and from these same Hi-Fi press that statements which encourage the aquisition and use of Multi-Region firmware updates and PAL Progressive enabling updates come into play:
    Quote from What Video TV's review of the Denon DVD2800mkII "Progressive scan is really only of interest to anyone with a projector or plasma screen with component video inputs and an R1 NTSC DVD collection."
    Quote from Home Cinema Choice's review of the Denon DVD2800mkII "DVD-Video Region 2 player with component video and progressive scan video output (for Region 1; consult your dealer)"
    Quote from What Hi-Fi? Sound & Vision Magazine's September 2003 Issue (Page 89) "If you've not already done so, get it [the DVD2800mkII player] modified for multiregion playback by your friendly Denon dealer, since the CD-Rom disc that disables region coding also enables PAL progressive-scan video functionality" (N.B. the quote is taken from a paragraph of advice in response to a question from a magazine reader).

    Now to me it certainately seems that Denon are encouraging the reference use of the Hi-Fi press and reviewers as a reason to buy the Denon DVD2800mkII based on its performance and reliability, but at the same time are playing ignorant to the fact that those same reviewers are encouraging updates of the player which Denon thoroughly discourages the use of :
    Quote from email received from Denon UK "Thank you for your e-mail regarding Denon Products. Denon can only support Region 2 playback in the UK as set out by the DVD-Forum when DVD was born, the NTSC side of the product is for the following reason : If you put a Region 2(Pal disc) into the DVD-2800II then press the NTSC button on the remote it will convert the PAL signal into a NTSC Pure Progressive signal via Component video output, the NTSC has no reference to Region 1 playback which Denon UK does not get involved with.
    Regards
    Keith Pradey"
    This is perceived by many as a cynical and hypocritical marketing ploy from Denon, who are, pardon the phrasing, attempting to 'Have their cake and eat it'. It's unfair that Customers should read the reviews as advised by Denon, take up the courses of action in those same reviews advised for updates, and then later find that they're having problems which result in their player simply not working at all."

    The reason for my thread is to aquire a number of people who're willing to verify that, once treading the course of action advised and proclaimed by both Denon's dealers and the Hi-Fi press they so readily referred to, they've had problems with the player which mean they've simply had to get it replaced or buy a product from another brand.

    I know there's plenty on the forums who've had these problems, so come on, get out of the woodwork!
     
  3. Richard Harnwell

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    I have a 2800 MkII that I upgraded top Pal prog & multiregion via firmware from the internet. Lip sync problems with both PAL & NTSC are so bad the player is unuseable to me, especially as there is no readily available firmware to revert this to the "from factory" settings.

    If Denon don't expect people to update the firmware, why would they sell DVD players that are advertised as progressive scan, but only for a TV standard that region locking does not allow the machine to play.......?

    Feel free to include my details in any correspondance!
     
  4. Dimmy

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    Richard Harnwell, I don't think Spectre's too happy with my idea, (N.B. spectre, I haven't sent this to Denon yet), so until he makes his post I'm going to leave this one be.
     
  5. Dimmy

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    Spectre my friend, you are the bringer of gifts...

    Thankyou very much indeed :):):):):):):)
     
  6. vc820

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    Thank you Spectre for reopening this thread as I know this subject is of great interest and importance to many people who visit these forums. I hope everybody contributing to this thread can keep it clean and based on the facts only. There is an old saying that goes 'if you need to get personal to make your point then you've already lost the argument'. Anyway, here is my contribution.

    Denon Germany have just released an official Pal progressive update for the Denon DVD 2800 Mk2, 3800 and A1. This upgrade will be performed free of charge if you take your machine to your nearest Denon dealer in Germany of course. I see no reason why Denon Uk cannot do the same. It would probably only need minor adjustment to suit U.K. machines. I feel like a lot of other people that Denon U.K. are being lazy. (please note, I am not pointing my fingers at Hayden Labs) I wish they would at least come out with an official statement to clarify the situation fully, as to whether they intend to release an upgrade or not, so that people know exactly where they stand. Lets not forget that the original list price of the 2800 MK2 was £750, this is by most peoples standards a considerable sum of money. When you spend this much you want to get the most out of your purchase. If Denon Germany hadn't released this firmware upgrade there would be no argument to answer, but I feel because of this Denon U.K. should do the same.
     
  7. Quilty

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    It's a joke that they aren't more helpful when all the multi-region firmware comes from Denon anyway!

    And while we are on the subject .... dealers. My Denon dealer was full of good intentions until he got my money. Now whenever I ask where my MR firmware disc is, they are apparently "still working on the multi-region firmware" when I know full well there have been two MR firmware revisions!!!!

    Tony
     
  8. Dimmy

    Dimmy
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    Quilty - my local dealers all said to me they had the official multi-region firmware update from Denon for the player, which is also claimed to be the official PAL Progressive firmware, which Denon say doesn't exist.
     
  9. Jackass

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    This kind of service does worry me when i've got my eye on there upcoming DVD-A11 machine.
     
  10. Dimmy

    Dimmy
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    I think the highest-end DVD players from Denon don't have most of these problems Jackass. The firmware for the 3800 and DVD-A1 is readily available and IS Official (to enable PAL progressive and fix Chroma bugs, with the side-effect of multi-regioning).
     
  11. cybersoga

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    They can't get the PAL progressive output right with the 2900 (see previous thread), I can't see them getting it right with the older 2800 somehow.
     
  12. Dimmy

    Dimmy
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    Yeah but I can bet you What Hi-Fi had a working PAL Progressive player when testing it :D
     
  13. Quilty

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    Basically, I deal with a great deal of hardware. I have found problems in about 80% of the stuff I have bought in the past. Many of these are glaring errors, for example the MPEG encoder board that was billed as compressing variable bitrate when in fact it only did constant bitrate (eventually admitted by the company that it could never do VBR as it was a "limitation" of the hardware board). Yet .. guess what ... the press gave it glowing reviews.

    As I have seen this scenario time and time again, I hold little faith that if What Hifi were presented with a faulty one they would even notice anyway. The press might think something was wrong if the drawer didn't open, or Denon were not taking a healthy amount of advertising that issue.

    Did that sound at all cynical?!

    Tony
     
  14. Dimmy

    Dimmy
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    Not really :D
     
  15. relevant

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    Yesterday (and before reading this thread) I took my A1 in to a dealer in Frankfurt for the PAL progressive scan update, having phoned during the afternoon to ask whether there was any way I could have it updated (because I'm thinking of buying a projector). The update went fine and, as far as I can tell, without any adverse efects. My unit is a UK one, acquired last year, so it seems the CD the German dealers have would work fine in the UK. (I hope I'm not talking too soon.)

    I also asked about multi-region and he said they were getting the multiregion disk in next month (he thought). I asked if that meant I should bring my unit back in a month's time for that update and he said "yes". This is a top end retailer, and I expect that this would be an official Denon CD, but I assumed that was the case without actually asking. This does imply that the official PAL progressive update does not provide multi-region capability.
     
  16. Dimmy

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    relevant, the Denon-Released (officially) DVD-A1 PAL progressive update has been available for some time.

    I think the side effect of using It is your machine becomes multi-region, although I can't be certain.
     
  17. relevant

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    The upgrade did not make mine multiregion.
     
  18. mjn

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    you might more response from a proper letter...
     
  19. OnTheFly

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    We all know why some companies steer clear of multi region issues. Things may be a little more relaxed of late, but why not simply do what most people do and use a decent company to have your machine 'chipped'?:boring:
     
  20. Dimmy

    Dimmy
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    OnTheFly - that's the source of the problems I hope to bring up.

    MJN - it'll be (at the very least) toned down a lot before it gets sent to Denon :)
     

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