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My rights to "reject" my plasma....HELP!

ash

Well-known Member
My Panasonic PX600 has been plauged with the purple snake problem and can not wait any longer for Panasonic to solve the problem, they have been "investigating" it for more than 3 weeks now.

The law says I have to reject the good within a reasonable amount of time, it doesn't give any details. I got it around 4.5 months ago, and noticed the problem about 4 weeks ago when I reported it to Panasonic. You could say it is not a reasonable time because it only happens on rare occasions on some DVDs, and only selected scenes, and it is hard to pick out. Consumer Direct vaia the phone told me it is usually considered in the electronics world that you should reject goods within 28 days.

My retailer is not really being helpful, they keep saying wait on Panasonic investigation.

Any help, and mods can you keep this in the plasma forum please because I should be able to get better replies. :)
 

Scholesy

Active Member
My Panasonic PX600 has been plauged with the purple snake problem and can not wait any longer for Panasonic to solve the problem, they have been "investigating" it for more than 3 weeks now.

The law says I have to reject the good within a reasonable amount of time, it doesn't give any details. I got it around 4.5 months ago, and noticed the problem about 4 weeks ago when I reported it to Panasonic. You could say it is not a reasonable time because it only happens on rare occasions on some DVDs, and only selected scenes, and it is hard to pick out. Consumer Direct vaia the phone told me it is usually considered in the electronics world that you should reject goods within 28 days.

My retailer is not really being helpful, they keep saying wait on Panasonic investigation.

Any help, and mods can you keep this in the plasma forum please because I should be able to get better replies. :)

Where did you buy it from?, I'd be tempted to steam into the shop and make a fuss.
 

hornydragon

Distinguished Member
spies? your paranoid, to enforce the law you have to go to court and get a judge to rule is it a 42" i would write to the retailer and explain that you feel 3 weeks is long enough for them to offer a solution and give them 7 days to reply before you escalate the matter
 
D

David1943

Guest
It is from an actual shop and not online, as I said I would prefer not to say incase they have spies here :)

Don't worry if they do read about your problem. If they're not looking after you properly, you should name and shame them to warn others not to trade with them.

I'm not afraid to say I hate Curry's - Now do you think they'll send the heavies to visit?

David :)
 

Inked

Distinguished Member
Have to agree with HD on this one, a polite letter to the service department of the retailer would be the next logical step and then if you don't receive a satisfactory reply contact either their customer relations department (if they have one) or their Head Office.

Unfortunately after owning something for over 4 months the law would state that you have had enough time to evaluate and reject the item due to any inherent flaws.

Whether 3 weeks is unacceptable time for a repair is a very hard thing to prove, although I can understand how frustrating it must be to be without your TV (I'd be tearing my hair out if I had any.
 

pablo27

Standard Member
I spoke with DSG this afternoon regarding a faulty Compaq desktop and they told me that if they couldn't repair within 28 days then they would replace it.

28 days is a long time to be without your hard earned goods, I would just keep pestering them, demanding a result or an answer.
 

lgans316

Distinguished Member
Go for the replacement and ensure that the replacement is void of this issue.
 

ash

Well-known Member
Okay, now hit another brick wall. My retailer says the problem I am facing is within Panasonic "spec". BS to that. It is not of satisfactory quality, and I doubt it can be repaired so I think they will give a replacement, but they won't give me 100% of the money to spend, they will say take away xxx pounds for 4 months use. How much do you think is acceptable?

I would say 115 pounds, because say the TV should last 5 years, which is 60 months. So 1700 I paid divide by 60, then times by 4 months is 113 pounds.

And one more thing I am stuck on.

Sending goods back

You are not legally obliged to return faulty goods to the seller at your own expense, unless you agreed this in advance. If a bulky item is difficult or expensive to return, ask the seller to collect it. This does not apply when you complain about faults after having 'accepted' the goods, or if the goods were a present.

I don't want to take my TV back to the shop, it takes ages to put it in the car etc. But on my reciept, one of the T&Cs is that if a product is faulty it is upto me to return the TV back ot the shop. Is this fair?

Here is some laws about unfair T&Cs.
The Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977

This legislation restricts a trader's ability to use contract terms to limit their legal and contractual liabilities. A trader cannot limit or exclude liability for death or personal injury arising from his/her negligence.

In consumer contracts, traders cannot limit or exclude liability for breaches of the implied terms as to description, quality and fitness for purpose of goods. In addition, any such attempt, by reference to a notice, statement or document (e.g. a notice which says ‘No Refunds’), is a criminal offence under the Consumer Transactions (Restrictions on Statements) Order 1976.

In business to business contracts, liability in respect of these implied terms can be limited, but only in so far as is reasonable, considering all of the circumstances under which the contract was made.

The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999


These Regulations, which only apply to consumer contracts, say that a consumer is not bound by a standard term in a contract with a trader if that term is unfair. Examples of unfair terms would include the following:

* Penalty clauses which allow the trader to claim more than their actual losses when a consumer breaches the contract.
* Terms which are unclear or unintelligible.
* Terms which exclude liability for breach of contract.
* Terms which deny the consumer their statutory rights if they do not comply with formalities as to the time or manner of making the claim (e.g. making a complaint in writing by recorded delivery).
* Giving the trader the right of final decision in a dispute.

The Regulations do not apply to terms negotiated with individual consumers, nor do they apply to the core subject matter of the contract (such as the description of the goods/services, and the price).
 

mannyo

Active Member
RE: sending the goods back. If its on the the reciept and forms part of the T&C's then you would have agreed to these when ordering / taking delivery so I am not sure you would have any joy getting them to pay.
 

ash

Well-known Member
Finally! My retailer has told me to contact local service engineer, if they can't fix it, I will get a replacement.
But they keep reitterating this:
Please note at this stage the symptom that you are experiencing is not classified as fault but a QA issue.
Which makes me angery!

I will see how it goes.
 

chaparral

Well-known Member
Hi Ash

What TV are you hoping to change to ???
 

Donk01

Active Member
Please note at this stage the symptom that you are experiencing is not classified as fault but a QA issue.

Ash, you may like to point out to them that this could easily be interpreted as one and the same thing, after all if components fail, break or prematurely wear out, then it produces a fault. A QA issue boils down to the same thing at the end of the day as it ultimately produces a bad product irrespective of that product type. Your contract on such a new purchase is with the person you bought it from not the manufacturer at this stage IIRC (someone please correct me if I am wrong here).

Put it another way, if a gearbox breaks on a sample of 5 out of 10 identical 3 month old cars with the same fault from the same manufacturer, yes it is a QA issue as the gearbox supplier or components in it have 'quality' issues, but it still makes the goods faulty!
 

Paul D

Well-known Member
MMmm... if they don't give a direct swap.

It will be:
Panasonic 50PX60
Pioneer 427XD or 507XD

:( It will be after 24th Dec, so I will miss out on Panasonics free 5 year warranty.....

TH-50PX60 all day long!
You already know how good the picture can be.
Excellent contrast, the best base black level, no honeycomb type screen structure to the image with moving images (Pioneers etc).
Just imagine it with a slightly higher resolution and more screen space, and most importantly.....NO PURPLE SNAKES :D

Ps
I suspect Panansonic have cocked up with the video scaler in the 37/42 inch PX60/600 models.
I would imagine they use a LUT (Look Up Table) similiar to graphics cards for their colour/greyscale blending.
If this is broken ie programmed wrong, then it can lead to the EXACT problem people are seeing.
"ATI" did this with one of their driver releases, and it caused untold problems with DVD playback with peoples HTPCs.
Instead of smooth transitions from one hue to the next, it displayed severe bands on certain colour hues.
It also gave the wrong colours on certain hues.( one shade of grey could be blue, one shade of green would be orange etc)
Watching required no drugs at all.
It took them a while to figure out the bad bit of programming(as it didn't effect all films etc), but once corrected the image was perfect.

Assuming something similiar here, the only question will be if the video scaler/processor "LUT" is in software(flashable firmware) or hardware(non-flashable hardchip based).

This is all assuming Panasonic will even admit its a fault in the first place. (£££ etc);)
 

Phil.LFC

Active Member
Hi Ash,
Excuse my language but this is p*****g me off big time :mad:

Panasonic are bang out of order denying this is a fault. I would feel confident taking them to court as anyone with normal eyesight would recognise this as a fault. I have demonstrated my purple snakes to friends and family and they all said how bad they were. Piers calibrated my set and still the fault was there, which he acknowledged. The engineer that came to collect my set on Thursday also agreed it was faulty.

I'm preparing myself for the same b******t answer from Panasonic after my engineer contacts them. I will vent my anger in John Lewis's direction to begin with. Hopefully they'll offer to swap it, without charge :nono:

If I have no joy with them I'll then contact my credit card company as they are jointly liable as they have "purchased" the TV on my behalf (well this is what Consumer Direct told me).
Did you pay by credit card?

Another thing you should try is to complain to your retailer by means of a letter to the Managing Director at their head office. At the top of your letter quote the Sale of Goods Act 1979. State that the TV should have been of satisfactory quality. Tell them what you are entitled to and give them a time limit to respond, say 7-10 working days. Keep a copy of the letter for yourself, and post it by recorded delivery.
I got this information from a very helpful lady at consumer direct. There are templates of lettters on their website - www.consumerdirect.gov.uk

Good luck & keep us updated,
Phil
 

gandley

Well-known Member
so are we saying its best avoid the 42/37ins panasonic plasmas in the px60 range? or does this only effect a few models. what exactly is the purple snake (no kiddy humour)
 
K

Keyman

Guest
This is what I understand

UK Law does not require retailer to give any warranty, however there is the sales of goods act. In a dispute, judge will decide the reasonably life of a product i.e. life of a brick differs to life of a elastic band.

Goods can be rejected if there is a manufacturing fault within the initial reasonable period. However the burden of proof of manufacturing fault is on the consumer if consumer demands a refund, otherwise retailer has right to replace.

After that the retailer has right to repair. Also they can do a partial refund reflecting the current market value or usage of the product if repair is not a realistic solution. Within the first 6 months, the burden of proof of manufacturing fault is with retailer. After 6 months, the burden of proof is with consumer.

Proof of manufacturing fault can be tricky.

Typical non-manufacturing fault not covered are, physical damages, normal wear and tear on consumables, electrical surge damages, goods used the way it was intended etc.

Typical manufacturing fault are faulty component, workmanship etc.

Also if the product is used in a commercial environment, the whole scenario differs.
 

Steve5

Standard Member
Hi Ash,


Take a look at the DTI website

http://www.dti.gov.uk/consumers/fact-sheets/page24700.html


Sale of Goods Act Fact Sheet
URN No: 05/1730

Subject: Sale of Goods Act, Faulty Goods.

Relevant or Related Legislation: Sale of Goods Act 1979. Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982. Sale and Supply of Goods Act 1994. The Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumers Regulations 2002.

Key Facts:

• Wherever goods are bought they must "conform to contract". This means they must be as described, fit for purpose and of satisfactory quality (i.e. not inherently faulty at the time of sale).

• Goods are of satisfactory quality if they reach the standard that a reasonable person would regard as satisfactory, taking into account the price and any description.

• Aspects of quality include fitness for purpose, freedom from minor defects, appearance and finish, durability and safety.

• It is the seller, not the manufacturer, who is responsible if goods do not conform to contract.

• If goods do not conform to contract at the time of sale, purchasers can request their money back "within a reasonable time". (This is not defined and will depend on circumstances)

• For up to six years after purchase (five years from discovery in Scotland) purchasers can demand damages (which a court would equate to the cost of a repair or replacement).

• A purchaser who is a consumer, i.e. is not buying in the course of a business, can alternatively request a repair or replacement.

• If repair and replacement are not possible or too costly, then the consumer can seek a partial refund, if they have had some benefit from the good, or a full refund if the fault/s have meant they have enjoyed no benefit

• In general, the onus is on all purchasers to prove the goods did not conform to contract (e.g. was inherently faulty) and should have reasonably lasted until this point in time (i.e. perishable goods do not last for six years).

• If a consumer chooses to request a repair or replacement, then for the first six months after purchase it will be for the retailer to prove the goods did conform to contract (e.g. were not inherently faulty)

• After six months and until the end of the six years, it is for the consumer to prove the lack of conformity.


Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs)



Examples are:
• an error in design so that a product is manufactured incorrectly
• an error in manufacturing where a faulty component was inserted.
The "fault" may not become apparent immediately but it was there at the time of sale and so the product was not of satisfactory standard.

Q1. What is an inherent fault?

A fault present at the time of purchase. Examples are:
• an error in design so that a product is manufactured incorrectly
• an error in manufacturing where a faulty component was inserted.
The "fault" may not become apparent immediately but it was there at the time of sale and so the product was not of satisfactory standard.

Q2. Do I only have rights for 30 (or some other figure) days after purchase?

No. Depending on circumstances, you might be too late to have all your money back after this time, but the trader will still be liable for any breaches of contract, such as the goods being faulty. In fact, the trader could be liable to compensate you for up to six years.

Q3. Are all goods supposed to last six (or five) years?

No, that is the limit for bringing a court case in England and Wales (five years from the time of discovery in Scotland's case). An item only needs to last as long as it is reasonable to expect it to, taking into account all the factors. An oil filter would usually not last longer than a year but that would not mean it was unsatisfactory.

Q4. I know I can demand my money back within a "reasonable time" but how long is that?

The law does not specify a precise time as it will vary for most sales contracts as all the factors need to be taken into account to be fair to all sides. The pair of everyday shoes may only have a few days before the period expires but a pair of skis, purchased in a Summer Sale, may be allowed a longer period by a court.

Q5. After the "reasonable time" has passed, what can I do?

You may seek damages, which would be the amount of money necessary to have the goods repaired or replaced. Frequently retailers will themselves offer repair or replacement. But, if you are a consumer (not making the purchase in the course of a business) you have the statutory right to seek a repair or replacement as an alternative to seeking damages.

Q6. Is it true that I have to complain to the manufacturer?

No. You bought the goods from the trader, not the manufacturer, and the trader is liable for any breaches of contract (unless he was acting as the manufacturer's agent).

Q7. Do I have to produce a receipt to claim my rights?

No. In fact the trader doesn't have to give you a receipt in the first place so it would be unfair to say that you had to produce one. However, it might not be unreasonable for the shop to want some proof of purchase, so look to see if you have a cheque stub, bank statement, credit card slip etc., and this should be sufficient.

Q8. Can I claim a refund on sale items?

It depends on why you want to return them. The Sale of Goods Act still applies, but you are not entitled to a refund if you were told of the faults before purchase, or if the fault should have been obvious to you. Also, you are not entitled to a refund if you simply change your mind about liking the goods.

Q9. Must I accept a credit note instead of a refund?

It depends on why you want to return the goods.

• If you have changed your mind, then the shop doesn't have to do anything.

• But if the goods are faulty, incorrectly described or not fit for purpose, then you are entitled to your money back (provided you act quickly), and you certainly don't have to take a credit note

• If you do accept a credit note in these circumstances, watch out, as there may be restrictions on their use.

• If the shop displays a sign stating they only give credit notes instead of refunds, they might be breaking the law and you could report them to your local Trading Standards Department.

Q10. What can I do to claim damages or if the retailer will not honour my rights?

The Small Claims Court procedure provides the means to bring a claim, for up to £5000 (in England and Wales), at modest cost and without the need for a solicitor. Your local Citizens Advice Bureau can advise on how to make a claim.

Q11. The retailer has said that a repair is "disproportionately costly" and insists I accept a replacement as an alternative. Must I accept this?

Yes, and vice versa if you request a replacement and this is "disproportionately costly". However, remember any remedy has to be carried out "without significant inconvenience" and within a "reasonable time" for the consumer. Remember that you could also seek damages instead.

Q12. Neither repair nor replacement of the goods are possible. What can I do?

You may either pursue the old route of damages or a partial or full refund. Probably either would give you exactly the same amount of money. You would seek a full refund in scenarios such as those where you had enjoyed absolutely no benefit from the goods. If you had benefited from them then you would seek a partial refund as a fair remedy. This is exactly the reasoning that would be employed if you sought damages.

Q13. What does the "reversed burden of proof" mean for the consumer?

It means that for the first six months the consumer need not produce any evidence that a product was inherently faulty at the time of sale. If a consumer is seeking any other remedy the burden of proof remains with him/her.

In such a case, the retailer will either accept there was an inherent fault, and will offer a remedy, or he will dispute that it was inherently flawed. If the latter, when he inspects the product to analyse the cause, he may, for example, point out impact damage or stains that would be consistent with it having been mistreated in such a way as to bring about the fault.

This reversal of the usual burden of proof only applies when the consumer is seeking a repair or replacement. After the first six months the onus of proof is again on the consumer.
 

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