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My reply from Sharp: GA4 "fault"

Discussion in 'LCD & LED LCD TVs' started by mark88, Dec 15, 2004.

  1. mark88

    mark88
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    Within a couple of hours after getting my LC26GA4E I contacted Sharp via email regarding what I thought was a problem with the RGB Scart input. I sent them pictures and details of the fault which can be found:

    On this page

    I've tested numerous RGB sources now with the set and ALL OF THEM produce this problem. "composite" is fine, "DVI" is fine, it's just RGB. Composite looks better than RGB ***!!

    After just over a week, this is the official response from Sharps technical department:

    "We have checked our sample but cannot reproduce exactly the same effect. We feel that this is not a fault but caused by the combined digital processing of the DVD and LCD circuits. The number of levels that can be displayed are fixed and the resolution appears reduced when dealing with single colour/ no colour images.

    When image are processed digitally the levels or of brightness and colour are quantised to fixed levels when this applied to a apparently single colour or brightness level some areas are quantised up to one level and others are quantised down, on a plain background this can cause noticeable differences in brightness or colour especially when enhanced by boosting the signal levels in the dark areas by changing the brightness level. It is also important to realise that the brightness control does not change the brightness as in a CRT TV it's is more like a gamma control and works to an algorithm which works on specific picture areas depending on picture content.

    It is likely that the effect can only be seen via RGB mode because it is not subject to the low pass filtering applied to composite signal and the small variations in the background signal are thus not eliminated.

    Please understand that LCD / pixel based displays can only display a fixed number of levels and this type of effect is not unexpected. It is also worth pointing out that the number of levels are not evenly distributed and in dark areas there are less levels which means the difference between one brightness level and another is greater and as mentions before the brightness control will stretch or compress these differences making them more or less noticeable.

    Please adjust the levels for the best overall picture.

    We hope this explanation helps your understanding of the phenomena.

    I hope this helps."



    Please, anyone of you with a GA3 or GA4 LCD, hook up an RGB source and set the brightness of the set to "5" or "10" or something, then go watch the credits of a movie, or look at some blacks anywhere. Plug in your Xbox and look at the logo intro.

    I find it REALLY hard to believe that Sharp can pass off this as "not a fault" or in any way acceptable. Watching a widescreen movie while the black bars at the top and bottom of the screen and having a wee little dance is not much fun at all :-(.

    So, according to sharp I have 1 option, simply adjust the settings to where this problem doesn't become visible? ie, reduce the brightness of the set way below "0"....

    not a happy bunny. :thumbsdow
     
  2. andya

    andya
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    i agree with you it is not acceptible and they should replace it.just get in touch with your solicitor or cab service if they dont replace or try to get a refund i would not put up with that
     
  3. deep_thought

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    Get back in touch with Sharp, their letter seems to be a form letter based on generic 'dark screen' issues and doesn't recognize you seem to have a different or much more severe problem. Give them the same info as above especially on the different sources.
     
  4. mark88

    mark88
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    I dunno what to do, lots of people on these forums have GA3/GA4's. There are probably the most talked about TV's on here.

    I'm sure if this was "normal" as Sharp implies that other people would be complaining about it pretty often right here.

    I just find it impossible to believe SHARP can pass this off as in anyway acceptable or "not a fault". If it is normal then why exactly can't they reproduce it? surely that would be easy considering I see it every single time I connect up an RGB source, be it Sky, DVD, XBox etc etc...

    I might give DD a call and get a refund. I don't exactly want to but what exactly else option do I have?
     
  5. jimg

    jimg
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    Mark
    I cannot believe that Sharp are saying that it is down to adjustment! I have played with the settings on my Sharp LCD a lot while trying to get the perfect picture. I have had the settings from one end of the range to the other and have NEVER had a picture like yours. I am using RGB and component input and to be honest there is not a great deal of difference. You had obviously tried different settings BEFORE you finally resorted to contacting Sharp and I think they are just trying to brush you off.
    I think it is very poor and makes me question the worth of this 3 year warranty that encouraged us all to buy our LCD's now.
    Sharp practice from Sharp? :mad:
     
  6. APC

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    Hi Mark88,

    I'm running Sky Plus through a 32GA4E via RGB without a hitch. Just one thing (though I'm sure you've tried this already): have you tried disabling 'film mode' under advanced settings on the TV?
     
  7. andya

    andya
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    just thought if you have to get it changed you may be out off luck apparently sharp have disscontinued that model,but im sure they will magically make one appear
     
  8. hornydragon

    hornydragon
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    You havent given the set very long to run tho........ and while sharp may not have seen it as an issue there response is valid (how was brightness set?) by Eye ? Test pattern and Eye or Colourimeter? What was the level of ambient light? What are the source devices output voltages?

    There are alot of complex variables there......and this would not be the first tV to display a better Composite image than RGB........... RGB is increibly hard to get right (RGBS) via scart......
    Not saying your set is perfect but alot more needs to be examined before you start waving solicitors letters around... Perhaps a pro calibration by an ISF approved and trained engineer??? Then if he sees a fault take it to sharp........
    also the pictures of the fault are subject to the camera resolution and display monitor settings......
     
  9. andya

    andya
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    i agree with what u say but i meant get a solicitor as a last resort,im sure in the end sharp will sort it out
     
  10. mark88

    mark88
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    How long does it need? It's been on a good fews hours now and the symptoms show no sign of clearing up. I haven't checked source voltages....I've tried numerous lighting settings (in 2 houses) and it makes no difference. The bightness variable ranges -30/+30. Unless it's set below zero, or thereabouts these problems are visible.

    My argument with Sharp is this, the set ships were numerous "AV modes" which are basically presets (movie/game/standard/ etc etc) which all have their own settings. Going on Sharps assumption that "this isn't a fault" then to a huge majority of the people who buy this set(lots of SKY+ & DVD owners use RGB scart), all but one of these modes will be usless as only one of them "game" has the brightness set low enough to render the "problem" hardly visible. Surely while watching a DVD via RGB you'd expect the "Movie" preset to be a good option for example. Component inputs have often only featured on High End DVD players, and Scart is the standard.

    It's hard for me to show the fault in pictures, it does look ALOT worse in reality, especially considering they move. I'm not bad mouthing Sharp at all, they're replied to ALL my emails, which I don't think many manufacturers would. But I just find the response "just fiddle with the settings" a real poor show, especially when they also say "we cannot reproduce exactly the same effect"

    I'm sure if this "problem" was standard among Sharp TVs then many other people here would have mentioned it, or indeed noticed it, which no-one seems to have at all.
     
  11. andya

    andya
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    i agree no one else has mentioned it which seems strange,i think you are just unlucky with this set who did you buy it from
     
  12. mark88

    mark88
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    I reset all the AV Modes, and did some more comparision. Just seems to look worse the more I look at it. Composite cable used was a cheap jobby that came with the DVD player.

    RGB - Standard AV Mode (Brightness set to 5)
    [​IMG]

    RGB - Standard AV Mode (Brightness set to 5)
    [​IMG]

    RGB - Standard AV Mode (Brightness set to 30)
    [​IMG]

    Composite - Standard AV Mode (Brightness set to 5)
    [​IMG]

    RGB - Standard AV Mode (Brightness set to 30) (slow flash on camera)
    [​IMG]

    When using the RGB Scart, if I do Menu/Options/Input Select I get two options "RGB" & "CVBS", which switching between these two I can see no difference in PQ whatsoever. In fact alot of the settings(quick shoot, DNR etc etc) don't seem anything.
     
  13. mark88

    mark88
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    Hi, yea I've tried that. It makes no difference at all. I've tried all the settings, turning them on and off and so far nothing has done any good.
     
  14. mark88

    mark88
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    remind me again, what model Sharp do you have?
     
  15. phew

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    Mark,

    I have a LC26GA3E and have just hooked up my ex-DVD player to it under RGB scart and cannot see anything like what you are seeing (having put in a couple of DVDs and browsed through them).

    Also played with the AV mode inbuilt settings with no obvious issues.
     
  16. jimg

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    Mark,
    I have the LC-37GA4E
    Cheers
    Jim
     
  17. mark88

    mark88
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    yea thanks, so far no one has reported anything like the problems I seem to have, and it's not like it's hard to spot.

    I don't think I'll be hearing from Sharp again, last thing they said "I see you have posted this e-mail onto avforms.com"....lol. I didn't think that was a bad thing...but hey.

    I'm gonna contact the retailer tomorrow and see what they say :( No other set offers the same feature set as the Sharp in the same size or price bracket. So it seems my options are to go for a replacement or look at bigger sizes in other brands, and spend more money.
     
  18. Ultim8Fury

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    I have a DV-545 at the minute hooked up to my sharp and get nothing like this on any input or setting. I would suggest contacting sharp again to further push the issue or as hornydragon said get someone out to properly calibrate the screen and see if that cures the problem.
     
  19. mark88

    mark88
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    thanks. The exact same DVD player, I hope Sharp are reading!

    here's Sky+ RGB out into input #1....

    [​IMG]
     
  20. phew

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    Mark,

    How does it go if you get your sets supplier to check it out?

    They would be in a position to compare your unit directly with another (as long as they still have the equivelant model), that way you get another unit, and they get to hassle Sharp.

    I noticed on another thread somewhere of someone having to use the 'reset' button on the panel to sort out some problem with their unit. I'm not exactly sure what that does so take advice from someone before trying it.

    There is also a 'service menu' (never been there though). Maybe something in there needs tweeking. I'd have thought Sharp customer service would be better offering to do that for you, as it does seem that your set is either set up incorrectly or there is a hardware problem.
     
  21. mark88

    mark88
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    I bought the TV with a well known internet retailer, so when there's a fault it usually means a courier comming to pick it up(not ideal at this time of year). Then they'd have to verify the fault etc etc and it would just drag. I was hoping to avoid having to send it back, I don't want to as it's the set I want. That's why I contacted Sharp rather than the retailer.

    I've seen the reset buttons on the back of the set, there's two "reset" and "system reset", not sure what they'd do or the difference between the two. I have been tempted to push them but figured it might in some way spoil my chances of getting this issue sorted out.

    I think I've had the final analysis from Sharp, that's it not a problem. I've emailed them again tonight with quotes from the GA3/GA4 owners who posted in this thread. But really, looking at my set I just can't and won't accept that this is what you expect from a £1k TV in 2004. It's clearly not as it should be, especially hearing from other people with the same TV.

    It also now appears that the retailer where it bought it has removed the 26" models from their website :-(
     
  22. Mads

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    Hi,

    I don't know much about RGB cables but as far as I know a scart cable is not necessarily an RGB cable. It may transfer only composite and s-video signals. So you are sure that it is a 'real' RGB cable you are using and that it not defective?

    I have the GA26A3 model but connect it to DVD using component. I haven't even tried connecting any source to the LCD using the RGB input.

    Best regards,

    Mads
     
  23. mark88

    mark88
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    I tried 3 scart leads, all RGB including a brand new IXOS cable and they're all the same sadly.
     
  24. mark88

    mark88
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    second diagnosis from Sharp

    Thank you for your further pictures and comments regarding you RGB input picture, we have now managed to reproduce something similar to the effect produced by your combination of AV equipment but only by completely misadjusting the brightness and contrast settings for the RGB input.
    We have used a Japan region 2 NTSC 60Hz (original) Pirates of the Caribbean DVD and a basic Sharp DVD player.

    The problem is not a fault but caused by lifting what should be black into the grey areas of the picture and expanding the detail in that area to such a point the what would have previously been unseen black level noise can now be seen. It has to be mentioned that such maladjustment is at the expense of detail in the bright areas of the picture.

    The exact point at which this effect can be seen will depend on the levels of signal and set-up of that particular source. Please understand that unlike CRT there are only a fixed number of levels between Black (Pixel blocking the back light) and white ( Pixel allowing the light to pass through). The brightness and contrast controls on our LCD TV / monitor are made to simulate the effect of equivalent controls on a CRT by changing the gamma of the input signal, when in reality if you want to change the brightness of the picture you need to change the back light brightness level.

    There is in reality only one point at which the picture is perfectly adjusted to reproduce all the displayable levels from black to white, the adjustment of these controls only allow you to compensate for individual sources and preferences and can as in this case lead to undesirable effects if misadjusted.

    For best results please set the "User mode" which is specific to each input i.e. setting "User Mode AV1" will only effect and be memorised for AV1 input use. The other modes i.e "Dynamic" , "Standard etc. are common to all inputs and changing them will change the picture for all inputs.

    We hope this information helps.


    I'm so ****** of with this whole thing...it's nice of Sharp to reply but I challenge any Sharp engineer to stand next to me looking at the same TV I see and tell me "yea, that's normal"....

    "we have now managed to reproduce something similar to the effect produced by your combination of AV equipment but only by completely misadjusting the brightness and contrast settings"

    see, "completely misadjusting", that's just not the case with me. I get this on standard modes "brightness = 0, contrast = 0" shows it!!! I just wish they would understand that, I dunno what else I can say really. But it's NOT ACCEPTABLE I know that for certain.

    It seems have now have no option but to get a refund. Very dissapointed :(
     
  25. SLIM

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    ( mark88 ) You may find it a fight to get a refund. If you tell them theres a fult and thay email sharp and sharp say its fine. Just a head's up
     
  26. mark88

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    If so I'd have to go to trading standards I guess. There's no way I'm backing down on this issue, the fault/problem is there for all to see. I don't see how you can argue with the pictures I showed, it's pretty obvious. This is a £1000 TV ***.

    I'm positive NO-ONE on these forums would put up with the TV I have right here. It's not like I have a couple of dead pixels.
     
  27. ianh64

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    Mark

    I sympathise with with you. I would be gutted if I was in your position, but I also see the position of Sharp - don't get me wrong, I believe that there is a fault with the display. The bit about "we have now managed to reproduce something similar to the effect produced by your combination of AV equipment but only by completely misadjusting the brightness and contrast settings for the RGB input." leads you to another option.

    The onus is on the retailler to proove that the display is working correctly. However, for such a complex product, I doubt that they could do this. Unfortunately, I am not sure what the position is regarding rejecting it as faulty, it is possible that they wil argue that you have left it too long. I think that trading standard will give some excellent advice. My trading standards have helped me in the past - listen for some of the terms that they use and get them to explain them.

    One option that could be worth considering though, is to get an independant experts report. If for example you got Gordon to calibrate the screen (he charges about £250) you will either get a decent calibrated screen, or an experts report that the screen is stuffed. If its the latter, you can claim all, or some of the experts expenses back. It may be argued by the retailler that £250 is overly steep for an experts report, so maybe you could come to some arrangement with the calibrator whereby the full amount is not charged if a fault is diagnosed early on. But I would run this one past trading standards if they do not suggest it themselves.

    -Ian
     
  28. drphibes

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    Hi Mark

    Sad to see you are getting nowhere fast with your problem.
    When you say you have been in touch with Sharp , what department have you been dealing with?.
    I had stuck pixel problems with my GA3E and at first spoke to the Aquos helpline.
    The Aquos guys where reasonably helpfull but they did seem to reply with answers similar to the style that you have been recieving.
    I eventually dealt with Sharpserv and they where fantastic in sorting my problems out , they ended up delivering me two GA3E'S before I eventually got a error free screen.

    If you have not spoke to Sharpserv then that is what I would do next, the least they can do is send a engineer around to look at the screen.

    Good luck

    Drphibes
     
  29. mark88

    mark88
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    Hi, I have been sending emails back and forth with Aquos and so far I have gotten nowhere, they just don't seem to want to admit that anything at all is wrong with the set. No matter what I say or how many pics they see. The replies they send seem to completley dissmiss the points I have made & always end with "just fiddle with the settings", which is just not a solution as I have told them.

    Thanks for the sharpserv tip, I'll get in touch with them and see what they say. Fingers crossed!

    thanks Ian & Drphibes
     
  30. andya

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    i feel for you i bought a sharp from john lewis and noticed 1 missing pixel in the middle of the screen ,they are giving me a full refund which is great but doesnt help me much as i really liked the screen ,you have definetly got a bad screen no one else has the same problem i find with sharp they normally are ok its just getting in touch with the right person here is a number i ring and they normally sort any questions or problems i have 0161 204 2300.hope this helps
     

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