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My new 9986 is one week old now but i'm not sure now !!

Discussion in 'LCD & LED LCD TVs' started by colinw, Mar 20, 2005.

  1. colinw

    colinw
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    Well i don't know if it's my eyes going scatty but after one week of watching this 9986 tv i'm not sure if it has improved or got worse !

    I know it's supposed to get better over time from new but is a week long enough ?

    It's very difficult to explain but i'll try, it's like i have very small amount of motion blur, i notice it on football when there is fast panning from one end of the pitch to the other. I also notice it on any of the sky channels, if like someones head is moving about rapid within a small area.

    I notice it on dvd's as well, rgb and proggesive. If i watch i-robot at the beginning there is a scene where he is walking along and his head is moving about, well it's difficult to watch his head while it's bobbing about. I said it was hard to explain.

    I don't really remember seeing it when i got the tv last week, so maybe it's changing over time ?

    I have tried different settings on the tv but nothing cures it.

    Also i have noticed i get a humm from the right hand side of the tv, even when the ambilight is off.

    I did also check my friends 9986 last night and i can't really see it on his set, or it's not as obvious, and he has no humm coming out the right side.

    So is my set getting worse, or is this just the way lcd's are ??

    Thanks Colin....
     
  2. bspks

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    I don't think it's to do with the type of display I get the same problem with my new 9509 tubed TV.
    It's to do with the picture processing, I find, with mine anyway, that switching off active control, turning the dynamic contrast to minimum and selecting Movie Plus helped reduce the problem but occasionally there is still an odd bit of movement that is uncomfortable to watch, I guess that it's just a trade off for having such an effective detail enhancing algorithm.
     
  3. jimsan

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    Can you just quickly run through all your settings Colin.

    Contrast, Brightness, Colour, Sharpness.
    Processing. PP2, Movie Plus or Progressive.
    Dynamic Contrast, DNR and Active Control.
    Connections. Scart quality and Sky settings.

    This is arguably the very best LCD on the market presently, and it should be blowing you away, not worrying you as it is. LCD's do have certain limitations and even the best ones sometimes struggle, especially with poorer quality sources - like some Sky channels!

    Please take the trouble to reply..

    Jimmy
     
  4. colinw

    colinw
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    Hi Jimsan,

    Sorry for the delay, been very busy.

    It might be just me because i took this irobot dvd round my mates house and the problem i'm referring to in the film also happens on his 9986 tv exactly the same.

    If someone is walking toward you with there head bobbing up and down quite a bit and your just looking at their head, then i does look a bit wierd to look at.

    Also i notice a fast vertical pan can be a bit jerky.

    I know i watched a match last week when i got the tv there was the odd slight motion blur if the camera suddenly panned one way then quickly the other way.

    Anyway my settings are as follows...

    contrast = 65
    brightness = 55
    colour = 65
    sharpness = 2
    movie mode
    dynamic contrast = minimum
    dnr = minimum

    My sky plus is rgb out on scart 1 using an individually screened scart cable, very thick cable with gold plated pins.

    My panasonic s97 dvd player is hdmi out to dvi in, even though i must say i can see no difference between this method using progressive scan and rgb scart. ??

    There are options of 525p, 750p, and 1152i and i have'nt got a clue what i'm supposed to use !!

    I have tried them all but they look the same as rgb scart out. !

    My modded xbox is rgb out on scart 2.

    I should also add this irobot film is a dvd from net so it's not a retail dvd, it's on a 4.5 gig dvd-r disc. It comes up as 525p so i guess it's ntsc but it must be region 0 because it plays on my region 2 only panasonic player.

    Hope this all helps maybe.

    Cheers Colin....
     
  5. Tony B

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    I think you might have answered the DVD bit yourself. I have watched I Robot on a legitimate disk from my Denon 3910, via DVI. The picture was perfect at all times, no odd effects at all. The picture was significantly better via DVI than RGB scart (even though the scart lead was supposedly of reasonable quality) with zero noise evident.

    I don't watch Sky football but I do watch BBC and ITV football. BBC, via Freeview is frequently crap due to insufficient bandwidth causing excessive compression. ITV generally seems to have more bandwidth and therefore less compression, so the picture is normally much better.

    Watching on analogue sources usually removes all the unpleasant artifacts, as well as some detail - and also prevents genuine widescreen (as opposed to stretched widescreen), of course
     
  6. jimsan

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    Hi Colin!

    Tony has more or less done my job for me! Thanks Tony!

    This iRobot disk is obviously an NTSC disk which is just not playing ball with the Panny or the TV. You should definitely notice differences between all the inputs, so it seems that this disk is a duffer. (Technical Phrase!)

    Get a pukka Region 2 PAL DVD which will output 720p or 1080i via direct HDMI to DVI and report back on your findings.....

    Again Tony has explained very nicely why some channels look hellish and others OK. The 9986 is just showing you exactly what it is being fed....just wait for HDTV!

    Your settings are spot on, by the way...

    Jimmy
     
  7. colinw

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    ok, thanks guys, i will report back when i try the proper retail irobot.

    The problem is i have a lot of dvd's downloaded from the net and nearly all of them are ntsc and play on my region 2 dvd player, and i know they produce less lines, ie 525 ntsc as apposed to 625 pal. And they must be compressed to fit onto a dvd-r disc as most retail discs are 6 gig in size and larger.

    I will try some various retail dvd's as well as irobot and get back to you on this.

    I watched brainiacs the other day on skyone mix and it was perfect by the way.

    So maybe what i see sometimes is relevent to channel and broadcast.

    Can you tell me what is the best setting for this progressive output, 525/625p, 750p or 1080i ?

    Cheers Colin....
     
  8. ianh64

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    Sounds like the frame rate is different from what the player thinks it is and what it is on the disc. NTSC is 60Hz. I don't know anything about pirating DVD's but if you do decide to do it instead of getting a high quality original, make sure the TV standard that you burn to is the same as the source material.

    As for 525/625/720(750)/1080, it all depends if your source player is better than your display at scaling and deinterlacing. No hard and fast rules other than with a cheap source the display may be better and with a more expensive source its probably best to upscale/deinterlace in the player. A good upscaler/deinterlacer will clean up bad source material.
     
  9. colinw

    colinw
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    Ok a quick report, i just got irobot dvd from blockbusters and the problems i'm refering to are still present, exactly the same.

    Just to keep you updated anyway.
     
  10. Phill_1981

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    how long into the film and i'll test it here.
     
  11. colinw

    colinw
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    Well it's at the beggining really, a few scenes, one when he walks down the stairs just before going out of the door, and also right after that as the camera pans down into the city street and he is walking through the croud of people towards you. I find it very difficult to look at his head/eyes as these scenes are taking place.

    I was watching some sky tv tonight and was getting this damm motion blur problem now and then, it's starting to wind me up a bit now. either a vertical blur or a horizontal blur. I think because it happens quite quick is why it has an effect on my eyes.

    I have watched some films on my tv which i have also watched on my neighbors 42" lg plasma and they look so much nicer on his plasma and a lot easier on the eye as well, ie no motion blur problems.

    I don't know if my set is out of adjustment a bit or what ?

    Also i have only just found out there is this active control button on the remote, i did'nt even notice it before, i think it was set to minimum, so i am trying medium, but i don't think i will solve it somehow.

    I was watching one of the demo modes earlier and it shows you all these bars and there is a motion bar, if only it was adjustable, but it's not, oh well.

    Maybe i'll end up speaking to philips.

    Thanks Colin (getting very wound up) !!
     
  12. jimsan

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    Colin,

    Try this. Turn the active control off altogether and set the PP2 to Progressive Scan and try again...

    Jimmy
     
  13. colinw

    colinw
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    Hi Jimsan,

    I tried turning off active control but that makes no difference to me, i have also tried the proggesive scan setting on the tv, but i find the picture too soft for me.

    I just set up my tv and hifi on the glass table, it took a long time to be delivered.

    And now at night when the volume is low i can hear the humm from right hand side of the tv from the sofa. !!

    I definitly cannot cure this blur problem i am having regardless of settings or input sources, so i guess i will now making the phone calls.

    Thanks Colin....
     
  14. colinw

    colinw
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    Me again,

    I was playing with the contrast level last night and discovered that the hum from the right hand side of my tv varies depending on the contrast value.

    When i got the set i just set it to 65 straight away, and left it like that.

    When i set it to 100 then the hum vanishes, then as soon as i turn it down it comes back, but at around 70 - 75 the level of hum is very low, it's not gone but lower than anywhere else.

    So at the moment it's set to 70 instead of 65, quite funny really that i have to find a contrast value relevent to contrast hum !

    I did try the natural preset setting last night and that did'nt seem to bad.

    I did phone up the shop regarding my issues and they just said to bring the tv down and they will look at it. But obviously it won't be the same in a noisy shop enviroment compared to a small quiet living room.

    If i do get the set replaced the next one will probably also have contrast hum, it's luck of the draw really i suppose.

    Maybe i will speak to philips regarding my issues, does anyone know the right contact number to ring ?

    Thanks Colin..
     
  15. jimsan

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    There is a whole thread dedicated to the Contrast hum and it was generally found that, yes, the hum disappeared at 100, but as soon as you come down to the 97 - 99 mark that the sound came back but stayede pretty constant from there on down.

    All of the 9986' and 9976's have the hum, but some seem to 'hummier' than others!

    Jimmy
     
  16. colinw

    colinw
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    Yeh just as i thought,

    Oh well anyway if i can conquer this damm motion blur, then i won't have to get it replaced, i did change some of my wiring recently, i used to have a cheap switching box to output three rgb devices into one scart on my previous sony crt 28" tv.

    But about 5 days after i got this new tv i ripped it out because it was not required anymore and just went direct from sky plus into the philips tv. At the same time i removed the scart lead from the dvd player and went hdmi to dvi.

    So everything has it's own input, which is how it should be.

    Maybe i'll try another scart lead, maybe i'll try my old sky box which is upstairs.

    I'm trying to watch england vs ireland on bbc1 at the moment but the panning blur is not good on my eyes. !!

    I really don't want the hassle of going back to the shop and getting it replaced. I wish i knew what is causing this ?

    Can i be the only 9986 owner who is suffering from vertical and horizontal motion blur ?

    Does anyone else have similar problems ?

    What setting on the tv would have the most impact on my problem ?

    Thanks Colin...
     
  17. Tony B

    Tony B
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    Well, I have just run through the early scenes of I Robot, and (using 576p out of the Denon) I could not see any of the problems you have referred to regarding motion blur.

    I have no, repeat no, hum that I can detect, unless I get within 6 inches of the controls on the top of the set. I certainly cannot hear this at normal viewing range.

    I watched the footy via Freview today. Given the utterly crap nature of the signal I set the PP control to progressive scan and cannot say that I saw any problems....

    Either I am easily pleased (not true really, as I did return the first example of this set) or your set is not performing as well as mine...
     
  18. jimsan

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    I'd love to come to your house and sit down and watch this 9986 of yours. I'm torn here....Either your TV is a duffer, is set up in some weird way, or you're expecting to much...

    Back to the DVD reproduction. This should be startling! Remind me of your DVD player..is it the Panasonic S97? I remeber hearing a number of guys slamming this players HDMI output as being grainy and generally poor. Hang on a bit while I have a dig about...

    ...OK look here:http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188507&highlight=Panasonic+S97

    I have the Denon DHT500 Cinema system and watch my DVD's via Component at 576p. The PQ is staggering. Really smooth and clean... I believe the S97 has a component output, which, according to the link above, gives a slightly better PQ.

    Any help?

    Jimmy
     
  19. Phill_1981

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    I did the same and it was also fine.

    I have not yet had the opportunity to check Irobot yet though
     
  20. colinw

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    Hi guys,

    Well i went round my friends house tonight to watch his 9986, he got his about a month before i did, from the same shop, same firmware version. I actually got to loan his tv for a weekend and loved it, which is why i went out and got one.

    If you remember one of my first postings my own tv was brill out the box, so i am as lost as you are on this one. !

    Anyway back to my friends tv, i watched a variety of different sky channels with his tv setup to my settings and every channel was fine, no problems at all.

    I also tried the irobot film round there and this looks exactly the same as on my tv ? ie very wierd when watching his head bobbing about throughout the film.

    My son even tried out this film on his 24" widescreen crt tv in his bedroom and the effect i'm seeing is the same on his tv, not exactly as pronounced, but never the less still there.

    So it must be the way the film was done.

    So now i am trying to do a process of elimination here. A dvd film looks the same on both tv's, sky does not. Now he is using a really old sky unit, i am using the new sky plus unit. So i will try out my old sky unit on the tv. i'll keep you posted on this one.

    At first i must admit i thought perhaps i may have gone a bit too picky here, but i know how good it was when it was one/two days old. And i can watch my friends tv all day long.

    This is'nt something simple like a dead set, or a green bar down the screen, this is hard to explain, and jimsan yes i wish you could come and look at this tv. And put my mind at rest. ?

    On the progressive scan subject i did try the component out first on my panasonic s97, and now i'm using a £25.00 hdmi to dvi lead in 625p mode and i actually prefer the scart rgb output, i get a better smoother picture.
    Go figure that one out ?

    This carries on much longer i'll be on pills soon !!

    Thanks Colin....
     
  21. colinw

    colinw
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    Hi all,

    Right well i did try my old sky unit and it was'nt nearly as apparent as on my sky plus unit.

    I have also only just connected up my rf antenna and tuned in all the usual channels and i can't really notice it on there either.

    I was'nt going to bother with this side of it, but thought i better do it for testing reasons and the picture in picture function.

    I have now compared a dvd film, my xbox playing back a divx/svcd film, and the rf tuner between my tv and my friends tv, and they seem pretty much identical.

    An interesting note here is that playing divx films on my xbox the tv has to be set to proggresive scan to play back properly. If set to movie or pp2 the picture breaks up during the film. !

    I watched a couple of dvd's last night and they were brilliant.

    It seems the vertical motion blur i can see is more apparent on my sky plus unit. ?

    The slight horizontal motion that i sometimes see on sky is also present on my friends tv, depending on channel / broadcast etc.

    I guess once i noticed a motion issue i was just looking for it all the time which does'nt do you any good at all.

    I still find peoples heads bobbing about rapidly look kind of weird / false looking but this is also the same on my friends tv.

    I'm sorry if i confused any of you regarding my dvd film issue against my sky unit issue, but i was getting a bit stressed out and i got myself confused in the end as well.

    Anyway thanks to everyone who offered there help with my problems.
     
  22. MeloManiac

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    Indeed, this can happen with bad DVD transfers! I generally only see it on smaller films, maybe older films where the studio doesn't give a sh*t how it looks. But I have noticed that especially skin in the face and such can get really blurry and look "fake" when it moves - it must be bad DVD authoring. I can see this on my Sony WEGA CRT:)
     
  23. Alan D

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    Just a quick thought Colin - I assume you have played about with DNR settings? Any weakness in a signal can result in slight blurring of motion, if too much DNR is added. Try turning it off.
     
  24. GalaxyM

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    I've registered just to add my experiences.

    I too have to put up with this humming noise. Sounds a bit like transformer hum and I guess it could be related to something to do with electrical load as the noise does vary in pitch (and probably volume) as I turn the value up from 55 (where I have it) to 100 at which point it is gone.

    Also I too am distracted at times by what I guess is motion blur. It happens most noticeably when the scene pans and in particular when the background is brightly lit and figures in the foreground are moving.

    Most of my settings are low and the digital effect settings are kept to a minimum if not off. I tried tuning with AVIA but found that some test patterns where you need to study two gray lines and balance to a fade point, were not workable as the firmware seemed to adjust the picture and the lines disappeared anyhow. That was with what I thought all the effects off.

    I've had my set since the start of March and I guess I'm talking in particular about the RGB feed from my sky+ box mostly watch the beeb and sky1.

    I'm happy to except that there will be certain effects caused by the digital processing but in this case it does seem a little unreasonable.

    Colin, if you want to compare and contrast(!) something that we have in common maybe we could record from sky+ and identify a particular problematic scene? Then tweak settings and see what happens. To what end I'm not sure but hey.
     
  25. colinw

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    Hi all,

    Ok thanks for your replies, well i must say i am a tad relieved that someone else actually notices motion blur, i thought i was going mad ( hang on, no i am mad).

    Alan D, hi, yeh i have tried turning off dnr, i thought that one may help but maybe not. I don't really have any weak signals as such. Don't get me wrong i have watched some programs that are so good they look like a live outside broadcast, but it just these quick pans that can give the effect of slight blurr. Slow pans seem fine.

    Anyway i watched tonights england game, and still saw some blurr in the game, but only when the camera has to quickly pan down the pitch from the far away camera and to me the players running down the pitch the same way are fairly blured while panning.

    Anyway like i said earlier for some reason it seems to be linked to my sky plus unit.

    GalaxyM hi there, i will tie up with you on some testing no probs. That would be great.

    I 'm fairly busy at the mo with tons of work, bit of a mad week. If you need my email just let me know and we'll sort something out.

    Cheers Colin...
     
  26. GalaxyM

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    Hi Colin, thanks for reply

    Didn't sit through to much of the footy last and didn't really notice effects (I did turn of DNR it was set at medium). However, I did watch and do find in general that 'The Apprentice', bbc2 on wednesday night to be particularly susceptible to this motion blur - assuming we're seeing and talking about the same thing.

    I think they repeat some night but if you are busy, bag yourself a copy with sky+ and take a look. I'll record the next one myself just incase.

    Chris
     
  27. colinw

    colinw
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    Hi GalaxyM,

    I never found that program to record, but i did record dr who last night and watched it this morning. I don't know if you may have watched or recorded it but anyway i get it on this as well. Like when he nods yes, and when he is coming down the stairs etc.

    By the way i have now emailed philips about my issues, and am awaiting a reply.

    Cheers Colin...
     
  28. jimsan

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    I think this motion 'blur' you refer to is what we discussed in the forum a few months ago and concluded was called 'Haloing'. The effect manifests itself most noticably when any object moves across a complex background. This is a common LCD problem caused by slow pixel response. To help improve the situation you do pretty much what you have already done. Turn off DNR, run the PP2 at Movie Plus and back off every active control you can.

    They all do this guys and you'll barely notice it as long as the TV is getting good strong signals. So good scarts etc needed.

    When HiDef comes in the effect should virtually dissappear!

    Jimmy
     
  29. colinw

    colinw
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    Hi Jamsan,

    long time no speak, thanks for that bit of info, i never saw this posting regarding this haloing effect.

    Maybe that is what i'm seeing, but if it is, i do see it quite a lot on my telly anyway. More so than on my friends tv as well. I would'nt mind so much, it's just my eyes seem to track the blur when it occurs and it makes my eyes go funny because of the short intervals. ie blur then normal etc.

    I watched troy on dvd the other night, i toggled between dvi and rgb and for the first time i could see a difference between the two inputs. It's hard to explain but on rgb it was a bit like watching a tv channel, but the dvi seemed a bit cleaner looking.

    Anyway i was seeing the tv struggling at the beginning of this film so i had to set the tv to progressive scan mode so that the film would play ok !

    There are a lot of complex scenes in this film, so maybe thats why ?

    This is a bit like when i play divx films from the xbox, i have to use that same setting otherwise the picture breaks up.

    On that note my friend is getting a high def cable for the xbox so i will be testing this out to see if there is an improvement for the divx films. My xbox is always set to ntsc anyway and i know xbmc supports progressive scan, so this will be an interesting test.

    I assume these are three levels of picture processing on the tv, min, med and max being progressive, movie mode and pp2.

    Anyway one question i wanted to ask, if your watching a film via dvi / progressive scan should the tv also be set to progressive scan ? or are they two different things entirely.

    Thanks Colin.....
     
  30. jimsan

    jimsan
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    You are right with your idea that there is a Min, Med & Max processing setting relating to Progressive, Movie Plus and Full Blown PP2.

    The reason they call the 'Progressive Scan' setting thus is that when viewing DVD's via Progressive Scan the TV should need to do very little processing...

    I run mine on 'Movie Plus' all the time (virtually) and have very little Haloing. Has your friend also got a 9986? You say his is better? If so, do your further tests by all means, but if you're still suffering with this, get it exchanged. It sounds to me like it'll drive you nuts otherwise!

    Jimmy
     

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