Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by buns, Mar 16, 2004.
haha, you thought you would find something useful didnt you!
Looking forward to this review Ad, so hurry up huh?
Jeez Ad.................. a girlfriend.............
Nope, Can't make my mind up.........................
Any chance you'd post a screenshot or two to assist the decision process ??
Have you calibrated her with colorfacts yet ????????
Go on........ tell us about the HT1100....... either of them, we aren't too fussy.......................
Could you have not put on one of those (awful) chick movies in the pretence of keeping the gf happy whilst secretly tweaking the pj?
I always had the impression that NEC didnt target the HT market with these projectors and kept their intended use rather vague but then Im probably not paying enough attention!
I´ve read that the HT1100 suffers more than most DLP´s from temporal dithering. How bad is it on slow vertical pans with PAL material (or NTSC in 48hz mode if the HT1100 has that option)?
God almighty, how am i possibly meant to see that in normal play!?
The picture´s in that guide are a bit misleading, because it´s probably hard to get a picture of the phenomenon. But it´s a VERY obvious artifact. Next time I watch a movie (this weekend), I´ll post a scene where it´s good to see it, because there are lots of scenes in all movies where temporal dithering is very obvious. Whenever there is a slowish horizontal pan, then it´s obvious. It kinda looks like the edges of objects become crawly(dithering) and smear.
A bit of topic here, but from looking at projector artifacts, I find one even more bothering than temporal dithering. It´s studdering(I know it´s in the source, not the PJ). PAL and 48hz NTSC looks smoother, but it´s still VERY studdery. I can´t figure out why Philips are the only ones fighting this with intermediate frame technology, and they aren´t even using that in their projectors. Vertical pans with stuff like text I think looks really bad. Check out the demo here:
So is that to suggest that it will look like noise on coloured edges? I'll look, but nothing jumped out at me last night
what is studdering? Liked stutter? Judder?
dont look for temporal dithering, once you do see it it will realy anouy
it also can look like posterization, or that clay face thingy but it is god awfull and i havent seen a dlp that dosent have it. some seem worse than others
ok, well i wont look! Suffice to say that there was nothing glaringly annoying last night..... so you'd likely say im quite happy with it thus far!
I don't notice the dithering unless I'm up close to the screen.
A good place to see it is in Avias needle pulse tests - the darker of the black bars has mosquito noise when it's trying to render the the grey but flicking on the mirrors to raise the level to just above black. From normal seating distance, it looks like a very dark grey though.
Looking forward tou your CIE charts and greyscales when you're through calibrating it.
Sorry to be pedantic but when a camera moves horizontally it is called a pan and when it moves vertically it is called a tilt.
Having been a film camera operator in a past life I am a bit anal about such things.
Whilst we are on the subject of temporal dithering, bear in mind a lot of artifacts we see on our projectors are actually there on the original film material. For example as a camera operator, if you had a panning shot across a static subject, if you panned the camera too fast you would get the so called skipping effect.
Since the earliest days of motion pictures quite a number of side effects, such as the stroboscopic effect caused by by rotating objects such as wagon wheels, airplane propellers etc have been investigated.
The skipping effect can be explained as follows: during the panning of the camera in a static setting, a certain displacement of objects takes place on the film from frame to frame. When the film is viewed in projection, this displacement, as it appears on the screen, also constitutes a displacement on the retina of the viewers eye. The viewing cells on the retina are not directly adjacent to each other but approx 7.14 minutes of the arc apart.
If, therefore, an object viewed on the screen during a panning shot is displaced more than can be sensed in the above angle on the retina, it causes skipping of the viewing cells, which in turn disrupts the continuity or the panning motion.
Here's an example: Camera speed 24 fps, 50 mm lens, a 90 degree pan should take 23 seconds to avoid skipping.
i was just thinking the same thing..............
I see you are now PJ'less, well we can't be having that will spend all day tmorrow tracking the answers you wanted and let you know, byt he way where did you get you NAD hifi from
Thanks for correcting me. I meant to say horizontal, I´ve edited my post. English isn´t my first language so give me some slack
The temporal dithering I´m seeing is a DLP artifact, it has nothing to do with the source. I can see it on animated DVD´s and console gaming, on everything. It isn´t there on other type´s of displays.
I also notice SLIGHT posturizing. Most noticable on something like a blue sky where there are very smooth gradients. It´s even more noticable when the picture fades into or out of such an image. But I don´t know whether that is the projector or just because DVD is only 8 bit colour. I don´t notice this on a CRT TV, but then again they are so much smaller I don´t know if it would be noticable.
nice post! Clearly you know your stuff!
As i said before, without really looking, I havent noticed any of these effects in normal viewing. That said i dont have any other dlp's to compare to. As suggested though, I am nooooo way going to go looking!
got my nad stuff of afriend who bought and then decided he was gonna get some TAG stuff instead, so i had it from him at a good price.
s400 rds tuner all for £2000
I guess that is a bit of a giveaway
....unless of course it really stands for Highly Tweakable
lol well then the fact that the box says 'home cinema projector' clears all doubts!
Well at least with the actual filming issues im totally ignorant so know none the better!
It looks like im going to be sat at very close viewing ratio..... the only way im going to fit it into the room! Im going to have a 7.5 foot screen from 9 feet viewing! lets hope that doesnt make these artefacts too visible!
You may have to watch your films through the wrong end of a pair of binoculars
if i wear my glasses back to front, does hat do the same trick!?
on a plus side.... making a harkness hall based screen looks like it could come out at little more than £50..... sounds alot less hassle than my current approach with icestorm
My HT1100 arrived yesterday .
The picture's superb but after half an hour I started to feel nausea creeping on. The misses watched for a while too and bearing in mind I hadn't mentioned to her about the R.E. she said she had a pain in her head and she felt that she was straining her eyes to watch it.
Can somebody remind me of the ratio of people that are effected by the Rainbow Effect again? In our house it's 100% so far .
Damn shame coz it's a beautiful picture.
Anyone got any tricks to get around it? (clutching at straws I know).
My wife felt quite sick after the first few views but she did get used to it and in the end was fine.
its the same for some regards rainbows you can get used to it, ie they all but dissapear.
or your just unlucky and it will get worse......or at least never get better.
Clintc, hope you havent sold your Subaru yet!!
I read somewhere that 20% of peeps are affected by rainbows dont know how accurate that is though.
Has anyone tried taking motion sickness pills to reduce rainbow effects? Maybe worth a try
Certainly neither myself or my gf felt sick..... rainbows are something that anyone can see, its just knowing how to look for them. Wtaching a film, i certainly dont see them
hope you can get around it clintc
Everyone that has seen my projector has seen rainbows once I pointed them out to them. But noone has gotten headaches.
I noticed rainbows regularly, but they don´t bother me that much. Obviously it would be better to not have them, and maybe the image would look sharper, but they are far from being on top of the list of artifacts I would most want to get rid of. The rainbows don´t cause me headaches, but watching the judder on pans would probably give me motion sickness if they the scenes were long enough
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