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My Hitachi TX100 Demo Session and HS20

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by zoolap, Aug 23, 2004.

  1. zoolap

    zoolap
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    On Friday I went London ways to meet a friend and we went to Nexnix to get a demo of Hitachi TX-100. On the advice of people here I said I'd like to compare with another projector. I was thinking of Z2 originally, but was suggested the HS20 and decided to try it in comparison. I'd never given the HS20 any thought hearing about noise and it is only today I read about it's lack of contrast etc. I'll say in advance that despite hanging around here for a while I'm still not too good on judging picture at a technical level, so essentially I'm going on what is pleasing to my eyes.

    I took a few movies, but due to limited time only really tried Gladiator and LOTR:Two Towers. We actually ended up talking to Lucy (she was very helpful and friendly, giving her opinions rather than pushing them) about our image preferences while demoing so probably wasted a bit of time there. I explained that the intention was to place in a yet unbuilt room and she was quite understanding of the situation. Tried TX-100 first. Source was a dvd player with component out (denon I think) Initially the TX-100 picture seemed good colours seemed satisfying. Gladiator beginning battle scene. Picture good, arrows fired - grid structure :( - picture, then picture good - bit more action - more grid structure - tried different scenes - just as you're into the image the grid structure appears. Scene with tiger on chain - grid structure - in places. We went to the beginning of the scene with the tiger and switched to the HS20. The screen door disappeared and I was getting back into the film. My friend didn't say anything of the screen door on the TX-100, but he said "I don't know anything about this stuff [projectors], but this [HS20] definitely looks better". Another scene was where you see Rome above the clouds which showed screen door on the Hitachi, but seemed good on HS20. I couldn't really judge contrast level between the two enough as I didn't get to swap the TX-100 back into place after, but to my eyes the HS20 image looked way better. I was told there were less issues with dust contaminating the sony than other projectors (this is a positive to me).

    I'm now thinking that the HS20 may be for me. The plan is to output via dvi from radeon 9600. I understand 1:1 mapping can be done. Anyone have input [Kramer]? In any case I've got a fair few months. Maybe the AE700 will change things - other 1280 x 720 projectors will probably have similar screen door issues.
     
  2. martian1

    martian1
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    I had a demo compairing screenplay [dlp] 5700 and Hitachi [ yuk panel structure :( ] same as u didn't intend to see the sony hs20, next thing he is shoving the Hitachi on the floor and plugging sony in ...wow :D i loved picture much more cinematic, thought the blacks better than the DLP screenplay and what a doddle it was to set up. Only thing is the price suppose u gotta pay for this quality must save...
     
  3. zoolap

    zoolap
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    Nice to see a reply - was thinking no one cared ;)

    Nexnix are doing it for 1500 and something inc VAT which makes me interested.

    Watching just randomn scene in Two Towers flying over forests of New Zealand my friend was saying how great the image looked while I was thinking the same.

    Slightly longer throw than other projectors and biggest worry is ceiling mounting the thing as I'm not much of a DIY expert, but I may possibly be able to stick it on a rack behind seating. Room to be built will be about 5 m long and 2m wide, so was thinking of DRH slimline screen of 173cm x 97cm viewable area.

    I'm trying to find more positive opinions on it. Surprised Kramer hasn't appeared (thought he was a HS20 owner ?)

    In any case there are several months to go before I could buy even if I had money now. Also I'm not willing to risk rainbows with friends even though £3000 optoma didn't affect me (that price is way out of my range). HS20 I could stretch to considering my impressions at the demo. All I can say is that I'm so glad I did the demo or I might have bought the TX100 blind.
     
  4. martian1

    martian1
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    I have to convert my garage worried about soundleakage to neighbours although its only linked by brick at the front and back, along the length of the room is a 6" to 7" cavity [fresh air] between my brickwork and neighbours. Hopefully with a little soundproofing material i will get away with it :rolleyes: Room size will be approx 8ft x 14 ft
    The projector i buy will also take me a while to get atleast until room is ready. Good luck m8
     
  5. kotlewm

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    I have an HS10 which is the predecessor of the HS20. My understanding from reading this forum and avsforums is that 1:1 mapping is possible on the HS20. However, to access this mode you have run your HTPC at 56Hz, which is OK for R1 24fps film derived material, but rather stuttery for 25fps PAL or 30fps R1 video.

    You can use 1280x720p and access 50hz or 60hz refresh rates, although this does generate a bit of overscan.

    I use a Radeon 9600 into my HS10, so you shouldn’t have any problems there. Nvidia users may have a bit of an issue, as I recall some “EDID” problems preventing 1:1 mapping, this may be resolved by now.
     
  6. zoolap

    zoolap
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    kotlewm - That info is interesting. 1:1 mapping is important - I guess 56hz via powerstrip is possible.

    It would be nice if someone found out how to get PAL with 1:1 mapping at the full resolution.

    Would using 1280 x 720 make screendoor worse? Would overscan be worse if hdmi/dvi standalone player was used than a pc?
     
  7. kotlewm

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    Although there doesn't appear to be a method of 1:1 mapping @50Hz using the full panel resolution there are a couple of options available to you:-

    You can utilise the 1280x720 area of the panel, and use the zoom feature to fill your screen. Or you can allow the HS20 to use it's scaler to use the full panel resolution, this does mean scaling twice and rather defeats the point of 1:1 mapping, but I find it still offers a very pleasing picture.

    I don't think either approach would make a noticeable difference to the visibility of screen-door.


    There are many options available to you regarding resolutions/refresh rates, I found the following post over at avsforums which will give you an idea of the alternatives available.

    http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=432969

    For what it's worth I use 1368x768@56Hz for R1, and 1184x666@50Hz for R2 movies. The reason I use 1184x666 on my HS10 is that it is the only way I've found to get no overscan at 50Hz, from the post below it would appear that 1280x720 with no overscan is possible on the HS20. I have copied the contents of the avsforum post below:-


    Hope this helps.

    Martin.
     
  8. zoolap

    zoolap
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    Martin - Thanks very much for this info. I assume that the settings you have above give you the optimum judder free image for PAL. I have more PAL than NTSC dvds so if I can sustain a reasonable quality that would be good. This gives me more to work on assuming I end up getting a HS20, which seems the better bet at present. That said I've gone from wanting AE300 to AE500 to TX100 to HS20 now, so who knows what it'll be if/when I finally get to buying something :laugh: I've even sometimes think maybe I should just save myself the hassle and get another Loewe 32" (I like the picture of my Vitros and wouldn't want much else) tv for upstairs as downstairs, but this would be backbreaking stuff and considering the expense (though I have to consider screen, mount and cable cost as well) seems a cheaper in some respects to get a step up from what I have. What I'd like to do is get a projector and a 28" CRT tv for casual tv/dvd + gaming.
     
  9. martian1

    martian1
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    kotlewn I have a Radeon 9800 pro card in my m/c never considered using pc with projector. What are the advantages over a good quality dvd player with component out...sorry for what might seem to a daft :blush: question but this it new to me
    Thanks m8
     
  10. kotlewm

    kotlewm
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    Well, I'm by no means an expert and you'll find more qualified people over in the HTPC area of this forum, but I'll try summarise as well as I can:-

    The main benefit of using an HTPC is that you will be able to harness to power of your processor/graphics card to scale the image from DVD ( 720x480 NTSC or 720x576 PAL) to the exact panel resolution of your display. This will give a better picture than the scaler on board your projector would manage, and can offer a picture quality comparable to the best (read expensive) stand-alone scalers. Have a look at www.theatertek.com for a nice HTPC friendly DVD player, also have a search for FFDSHOW which is a powerful tool which enables you to tweak the image during scaling to your hearts content.

    Added to this you have all the additional benefits of running a PC, such as:-


    Large screen gaming.
    Audio/Video Jukebox. Rip your music & movies to your hardisk.
    Access to HDTV movies NOW from newsgroups ( not exactly legal I know).
    Put a TV-card in your PC and use it as a PVR ( I use a Nebula Electronics DigiTV card).


    So what about the downsides? Well, they can be fiddly to configure/optimize. And noise can be a concern when you bring a PC into your living room, so budget for noise reduction techniques, such as quiter fans/psus. Making them idiot-proof so that your Wife/family members can use it can take a bit of time.


    Hope this makes sense, I’m well on my way through several Peronis, so feel free to ask if I can clarify anything.

    Cheers :beer:

    Martin
     
  11. kotlewm

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    I think this is the best approach, and it certainly adds to the "event" of watching a movie. I use a little 17" LCD for watching the News etc, I'll probably replace this with a slightly larger LCD now that prices are dropping.

    If you are happy to wait a few months I would hold back and see what's announced at CEDIA. According to avsforums the replacement for the VPL-HS20 is likely to be revealed: The VPL-HS51 with the following preliminary information:-

    *** Preliminary Information ***

    WXGA Resolution
    Cinema Black Pro
    Real Color Processing
    New Cosmetic Design
    HDMI / DVI
    12 Bit Panel Drive
    I/P Conversion Video and HD Signal
    Digital Keystone Side Shot 2 / Lens Shift
    Short Throw Lens (100" < 3m)
    New User Friendly OSD
    1500 ANSI Lumens
    Contrast Ratio 6000:1
    Fan Noise 25dB
    Lamp Life: 2000 / 3000 Hours


    There is lot's of debate going on as to how the 6000:1 ratio is possible, so wait and see what happens at CEDIA. If nothing else, expect some price reductions as the HS20 is cleared out of stock.

    Cheers

    Martin.
     
  12. martian1

    martian1
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    Very interesting...so i need a dvd player from theatertech right? anyone got one no pic on site !. I doubt very much if i could afford the newer projector models when they appear, the hs20 should work with pc ok? i could possible get a DLP model like the themescene would this work as well?
    sorry for all the ?'s guys but this is a new avenue for me to explore :rolleyes:
     
  13. zoolap

    zoolap
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    martian1 - Check out the HCPC bit of these forums:

    http://www.avforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=46

    I have heard news of the HS51 - but thought it was going to be called HS50.

    The £1500-ish cost of the HS20 is a bit of a stretch, but one I'm willing to make considering the results of the demo. The fact the HS20 will be discontinued is worrying. If the HS51 is really that great then I may consider stretching up to £1800, but even that (as I heard for AE700) is a bit much. I don't want to go as far as £2000.

    I hope it arrives soon. Competitor is likely to be AE700 for me as it has the smoothscreen thing to reduce screendoor.
     
  14. benji_m

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    But it may be worth considering the Hs20 was £2700 when released, and stayed there for most of it's life. Sony may want a bit more than they currently get for the 20 for the new one, it's dangerous to assume with such unpredictable pricing policies!
     
  15. zoolap

    zoolap
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    Yes - that is something I've considered. The HS20 was pleasing to my eyes, so it all depends on how Sony plays it with price of the new one. I've got a few months before any decisions can be made anyway.

    There's one big thread at avs anyways :D
     

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