Question My first system. Could I do better?

Oli B

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Hello

This is my first post of many hopefully.

I'm a novice.
I currently have an entry level Rotel amp, some bookshelf B&Ws and a decent REL Sub (which I love!)

I am looking to take the next step up and spend somewhere around 10K on a system.
I only play vinyl.

I have demoed a few different things and have settled on a system.
(It's coming out at £11,200 brand new.)

Linn LP-12 Magik Turntable
Harbeth HL5 speakers
Naim NAP 200 power amp
Naim NAC 202 preamp
Naim Stageline Phono Stage
Transparent leads (nothing too crazy £300 for 8ft)

I don't imagine I can be talked out of the Linn! I love its history and it's a thing of beauty in Walnut.

I'm also a big fan of the Harbeth's. I love Rogers speakers. I love that BBC sound. I would like to hear some other options though as they do lack a bit of bassy punch.

The amp is where I'm a bit out of my depth.
3 questions:

1. Is it worth getting a pre and power amp, or should I just go integrated. (It's about a grand cheaper.)
2. Is there a better amp I could get for around 4K
3. Naim power and pre-amps are a lot cheaper second hand, from about 5-10 years ago. Is there much advantage buying new?

And then one more question.

I currently have a REL subwoofer which I love.
My only gripe with the Harbeth's was the lack of punchy bass.
Would it be sacrilege to put my REL into the system above on a really low crossover?

Thank you.

Sorry to come barging in here with a load of questions!

Oli
 
I currently have an entry level Rotel amp, some bookshelf B&Ws and a decent REL Sub (which I love!)

I am looking to take the next step up and spend somewhere around 10K on a system.

That's one massive step up!

My first thought when I read the title question, 'Could I do better?' was 'probably yes'. Then I read the rest of your post:

I don't imagine I can be talked out of the Linn! I love its history and it's a thing of beauty in Walnut.

I'm also a big fan of the Harbeth's. I love Rogers speakers. I love that BBC sound.

and realised this is much more about the equipment's tradition and aesthetics than achieving sonic accuracy. Nothing wrong with that approach as long as you accept some compromises.

I should say up front that I haven't listened to any of the components you mention and, although I once owned a fairly similar system (LP12/Meridian pre & power amps/early Mission 770's), that was thirty years ago and this type of setup no longer floats my boat.

Don't take this the wrong way but I see your proposed system as a throwback to the last century - sort of top-end British retro. Things have moved on since the 1980's but I question how much turntables, amps and passive speakers have improved in the past thirty years. I suspect improvements in these areas have been incremental rather than radical (though the cost of this gear seems to have outpaced improvements!). However, IMO, the sonic accuracy of domestic music playback systems has made significant sonic advances in two main areas:

1 Digital sources
2 Active speaker technology

Neither of which are incorporated in the proposed setup - which explains my initial reaction. A high quality digital source feeding a pair of high-tech mid-field (or one of the larger near-field) active monitor type speakers (or a digital source connected to a digital pre-amp feeding active speakers) would likely offer superior audio accuracy but it still wouldn't float your boat, would it?

Britain manufacture some top-end active speakers: Quested, ATC, PMC, AVI, Meridian and a few smaller outfits. Cast the net wider: Barefoot, Genelec, Adam, Event, Eve, Dynaudio, Focal, K&H, PSI, Neumann and many others. Really worth looking into if top audio quality - at reasonable cost - is important to you.

I've no experience of incorporating a subwoofer in a high-quality music playback system so can't comment personally but this forum is usually divided on the subject.
 
Thank you guys, I really appreciate your input.

Dogfonos, you are correct that I am definitely swayed by history and looks, but I wouldn't necessarily sacrifice sound quality just for that.

And Kc5819w, thank you for suggesting active speakers too.

I will absolutely go and try some active speakers. Are there a specific speakers you would recommend? I'll do a bit of research into Genelec and Adam.

Just so I'm clear, when you say "Digital Source", do you mean something other than vinyl? If so that might be a problem as my entire music collection is on vinyl. I've been collecting for about 20 years now.
 
If going the active route you'll either need a phono stage and volume control or a pre amp with a phono stage. Not as important as cartridge or speakers but still fundamental. One highly recommended (vintage style, British ;) ) is a Croft valve pre.
Many actives (e.g the much praised Event Opal) are a sonic bargain but industrial in appearance. There are many manufacturers of more domestically sensitive speakers at a price: ATC, PMC, AVI, Meridian, Focal and Adam to name a few.
 
Hi Oli B,

I cannot offer any advice on harbeth as I have no experience of them although I should perhaps know as they are literally half a mile from my place in Haywards Heath - lindfield). I do agree with the previous poster that they look an old model, so probably aren't going to get you the best in 2017.

I'm not going to convince you just because I own the gear but my set up is worth about £15k with cabling - all cyrus signature pre dac and monos and top cyrus sources plus pmc 25-23s (I had 20-23s before). It works very well indeed, seriously impressive for me anyway.

If I had that cash I'd get the best new speakers you can for say 3-4K and trialling with naim is quite easy in say audio t etc, as they always tend to have naim, and using the rest of the cash, look at options for used and new amps and turntables and maybe where you can upgrade but comitt the money to the best speakers at the price you are paying now.

I'd definetly go along the route of checking out Atc (scm 40 are awesome speakers) and pmc (25 series - sorry I said I'm not going to try and convince you) and speakers like the kef reference models are good, spendor too (think a6r, d7 if sepending more) and pro ac. However pmc have just trashed the a6r's with the new 25s I think. I wouldn't recommend b and w as I don't really rate them, sorry.

As regards active speakers it's something to possibly investigate but I wouldn't be spending £1200 if I were you, as I doubt you get much for your money at that level certainly relative so something like spendor d7

You didn't say if floorstanders or standmounters but if no preference I'd say floorstanders are very good and sturdy and you can get very good sound out of new designs with the fact the cabinets are so sturdy in floorstanders, this effect on overall sound.

I wouldn't get a system all in one go until you've heard the most important aspect first (speakers) with preferred amp make because you will be gutted if you could have spent your budget on used amps to buy the awesome speakers for the long run that you might be willing to make a few amp upgrades in a few years time to get more out of the speakers then.

If you go to a dealer ask what the amp make tends to sound like across a lot of speakers. Are you really set on naim or do you know the naim sound in comparison to a different brand that may sound better is a question I'd ask. Ask them what the trademark sound is of naim and if they start giving you bs where they can't really describe its common sound, seek out others opinions who do know. My impression, certainly in comparison to Cyrus, is it's a very smooth rich bassy sound with good rhythmic sound and decent level of clarity (but it doesn't seem to have the analytical nature of cyrus with detail and dynamics like Cyrus up to the same price, with my speakers at least on about £5k of naim amps v my £7.5k Cyrus amps). I heard my speakers on naim £5k worth of pre and power and not as good as my cyrus dac xp signature, Cyrus with psx-r and Cyrus mono x200 signature mono blocks.

I always think pre and power at this price and it gives you possible upgrade ability e.g. Using another power as mono. Think is the power amp stereo and mono switchable for adding another and mono blocking. Also another factor is I think you wouldn't get better between pre and power costing £4K as a £4K Intergraed at this price range. Possibly spending a lot more you would. Buying new naim is expensive and second hand is a good idea but I'd look at what it costs for repairs. I know Cyrus do a set price for repairs in a service no matter the internals so maybe naim do the same?

I'm not sure about intergrating a sub into your package as my view is the speaker manufacturer is largely designing the speakers with pre requisite amps, but I may be wrong on this and a bit 'snobby' shall we say. I'd much rather choose full range speakers with welly and decent amps to suit if your ideal is a speaker with lots of bass. I'd sell the sub and put the money towards hi fi.

As regards deck I'd point out digital is the way with awesome dacs nowadays to exploit all streaming and playing ripped CDs, but you seem set on a turntable option. But if it were my money I'd get a relatively inexpensive streamer and spend all or most of that money on amps and speakers, scrapping the deck idea, because sources are less important against most important elements of hi fi in amplification and speakers. You'd find if you spent say £4K on speakers and £500 on a steamer, and the rest up to £11,200 on pre and power and dacs and some of this on cables, it would blow any less amp capabale system out the water considering the extra £1-£2k that you might spend on a deck. If buying used amps this is even more important on better sound quality pound for pound, rather than perhaps any sentimentality around records. It also gives the flexibility to enjoy all types of digital sources for most music coverage in streaming and CDs and I'd then add a deck later once you've got the basics, but that's just me and I'm taking it you may only have records in which case this isn't an option. But I do take it you might have CDs which you could rip on a nas using a pc.

Hope this helps?
 
I will absolutely go and try some active speakers. Are there a specific speakers you would recommend? I'll do a bit of research into Genelec and Adam.

As has been mentioned, auditioning a shortlist of active speakers may require a bit more effort than auditioning traditional passive hifi speakers but I think it would be worth it as it helps make an informed decision.

Some high-end pro music dealers, such as KMR Audio (just to the North of London), stock a mouthwatering selection of the more expensive active monitors speakers and appear to have v. good demo facilities. Whether you need to spend upwards of £6000 on an active speaker pair (or amp + passive speaker pair) to get the sound quality you want I can't say but the active speakers/monitors I'd be interested to hear around that price would be anything by Barefoot Sound (i.e. Micromain 45 and 35), PSI Audio (e.g. A25M), Neumann (e.g. KH420), Quested (V3110), Adam (S3X-V), Unity Audio (Boulder Mk2), Genelec (1237A and 8260A), Meridian (DSP5200.2). There's a particularly interesting new active speaker from Kii Audio, called simply 'THREE' that has many of us drooling:

Kii Audio Three | Sound On Sound

...but it's even above your budget.

Also, I wouldn't rule out cheaper, highly-regarded actives like the Event Opal, Focal Trio6 Be, Quested V2108 and AVI DM10 + AVI Subwoofer. Because actives tend to offer better value than traditional hifi-type passives (IMO), you may get the sound you want for less outlay than expected.

my entire music collection is on vinyl. I've been collecting for about 20 years now.

I understand your requirement for a quality turntable. An analogue source such as a turntable, doesn't sit well with active speakers that have digital inputs (as a few of those I suggested do - although they often have analogue inputs too). If using speakers with digital inputs, I'd be tempted to convert the turntable signal to digital - although some will view this as heresy - and I don't even know if the equipment exists (i.e. cartridge output to digital optical signal).

As a first step, it may be a good idea to rule in or rule out the active speaker option then decide how to construct the rest of the system.
 
@Oli B

What B&W speakers and what Rel sub do you currently have?

Normally someone has a smallish budget and most avforumers end up doubling it for them! :rotfl::rotfl:

If you've just got £10k burning a hole in your pocket, then that really is a nice budget for a 2 channel system. With all due respect, I can't help thinking that such a BIG upgrade across the whole system maybe slightly wasted and unappreciated (I hope that comes across right :confused:)

If you like the BBC sound have you considered something from PMC...There new 25 range is incredible and the transmission design offers plenty of bass.

PMC Twenty5 21 Speakers from HiFix

Add a nice matching Bryston amp and you'd have a fine system that would blow the socks off what you've got now unless you tell me your B&W speakers are Diamonds?

If you're keen on Naim amps have you considered Neat speakers instead? I had some Neat Ultimatum XLS speakers - regarded as some of the best stand mounts ever made - and they sounded out of this world with Naim amplification. They retail at around £4500 - I picked a pair up in a premium finish with dedicated stands for £2k - the Harbeths HL5's don't even come close I'm afraid, although the P3ESR's are lovely little speakers!

Neat Acoustics Ultimatum XLS product information

Actives are also certainly an option...my own system is an active system, I won't harp on too much about it as you'll probably think I'm talking rubbish, but you're more than welcome to come for a listen if you're ever in Birmingham. Not very old school/classic looking but sounds superb and for the money incredible!! :eek::eek:

At the end of the day its your money and if you must spend £10/11k then by all means don't let me/us stop you, I just think you could surprisingly stunning results over your current system for a lot less and maybe a few years down the line look at that next upgrade and appreciate the incremental changes/upgrades!
 
I agree with arcamboy and the pmc twenty5 series are very good, which I own . But I'm not sure a match with Bryston, which are very high end amps. Bryston would go more well with higher premium speakers than the 25-21s like the neats or atcs mentioned or pmc 25-26s.

I think it's a good idea to go with really good speakers in the 4K class like the Atc scm40s, then add very decent amps of the like of arcam, Cyrus, or musical fidelity. The atcs are a 3 way design too. You will get more bang for buck with these amp brands over naim which I think only really come into play with the higher end naim systems. So that's another option. Also suiting your desire for bass and oomph.

I do agree with arcamboys wait and see what each upgrade does in incremental changes approach that's why I thought if you've got the cash you might as well get the best speakers you can in the next budget up from maybe £3k ish speakers which you seem to have had in mind in the Harbeth cost. If you bought pmc 25-21s around £2k you'd be gutted the amps might'dwarf out' your speakers, that you will then be looking for a speaker upgrade again to match the amps. So that's why I think get the best speakers you can and then build it from there as even with the likes of lesser amp brands to naim, you'll get more value and still a seriously decent proposition.
 
On a £10k budget, I would also suggest that more should be spent on speakers - around £3k or so, maybe more depending on the rest of the components.

I'm going to throw a curve ball and suggest at least taking a look at the Steinway Lyngdorf TDAi-2170. Room correction is a divisive subject, but at that kind of budget you might as well hear what it has to offer.

In terms of speakers, it's really your ears and brain that need to like them, so take any suggestions on this thread that you like the idea of and go for an audition. :)
 

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