My Amazon UK (high value) return got stolen, what can I do?

NorvernRob

Distinguished Member
Because they've received a package so for them the contract is fulfilled?

But there was a problem with the delivery, so why should the customer who has no contract with the courier company be expected to chase it up?
 

RBZ5416

Distinguished Member
But there was a problem with the delivery, so why should the customer who has no contract with the courier company be expected to chase it up?
As above, Amazon's position is that the problem with the delivery is that the customer returned an empty box, not that their courier or receiving staff stole the contents.
 

NorvernRob

Distinguished Member
As above, Amazon's position is that the problem with the delivery is that the customer returned an empty box, not that their courier or receiving staff stole the contents.

But the courier or receiving staff did steal the contents, so why should that be the customers problem when they simply used Amazons requested method of return, which Amazon paid for?
 

MaryWhitehouse

Well-known Member
But the courier or receiving staff did steal the contents, so why should that be the customers problem when they simply used Amazons requested method of return, which Amazon paid for?

Because there’s no paper trail that it was ever anything other than an empty box.
 

RBZ5416

Distinguished Member
But the courier or receiving staff did steal the contents, so why should that be the customers problem when they simply used Amazons requested method of return, which Amazon paid for?
But there's no way to prove that, it's all on trust.

I'm guessing that Hermes don't know what's in a package they're collecting from a customer to return to Amazon. Could be any value & I suspect the vast majority are low value. So I can't see how a Hermes employee would know that this is the one to steal, unless they open every package that passes through their hands until they strike lucky.

Knowing Amazon's rep for monitoring & searching staff, it also seems unlikely that one of theirs would have the opportunity. So from their perspective, the most likely scenario is that the customer is at fault. I have no idea how this could ever be proved one way or the other short of CCTV showing the actual theft.

Edit
Just to state that I'm in no way questioning the OP's integrity or disputing his account. Just looking at it from Amazon's point of view.
 
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Autopilot

Distinguished Member
I can see where NorvernRob is coming from, but I think it’s easy to conflate criminal and civil issues, plus liability is often shared, and from Amazon’s point of view they expect to customer to return the item in the agreed state.

However I really think the police should be involved. This is a relatively high value theft. Don’t expect CID to get involved, but at the very least they should be making some basic enquiries, because even if culprit isn’t identified, I would hope it might make the delivery firm (if indeed it was their staff, we don’t know that - we should be carful about making assumptions) to ensure good security is in place, and more importantly they have valuable contracts with retailers they don’t want to jeopardise. That said, it wouldn’t surprise me any refund was put on hold while that investigation took place. And again, we should not start making accusations we don’t know are true. There are other possibilities.
 
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Autopilot

Distinguished Member
Isn’t Herme’s ‘staff’ literally just anyone with a white van (especially at Xmas)?

Anything with 4 wheels and moves basically. Recently we have seen hatchbacks rammed to the roof, and vans from other firms like cleaners (probably making up for trade damaged by covid, can’t blame them).

Our regular Hermes guy was amazing, but he left and it’s a different person each day. We have been waiting for a home collection for days now even though they have been here to deliver, well beyond the date booked via the non-Amazon retailer, the service has declined massively recently in my opinion, but I get that Xmas/Covid creates difficulties. But at least they actually deliver, unlike DPD who frequently say “sorry you weren’t in” when we were in all day, and actually paid for next day delivery.

Actually I never see the option for a Hermes home collection anymore when returning stuff to Amazon, it’s always post office and UPS or Hermes drop off point. Which is a shame as it used to be good for low value item returns.
 

IronGiant

Moderator
For high value items perhaps Amazon could send out some high security packaging that the customer could video being packed up with security seals applied. Then there would be clear signs if it was tampered with en route.
 

Autopilot

Distinguished Member
For high value items perhaps Amazon could send out some high security packaging that the customer could video being packed up with security seals applied. Then there would be clear signs if it was tampered with en route.

I believe some companies already do, my other half returned some jewellery like that. I guess it’s a cost of extra security measures Vs cost of just writing stuff off type calculation.
 

IronGiant

Moderator
Which is an easy calculation to do if you make the customer shoulder the cost of any losses :)
 

Tempest

Distinguished Member
Given the amount of returns which must be happening with Amazon alone.
And let's be 100% honest here and admit there are a lot of dishonest members of the public who think they can get away with something.
Be that copying a CD, buying a pirate DVD, or some other, let's call it petty crime.
I can only imagine any system that could be put into place to cover this type of thing, would, overall cost more to implement than just accepting a 0.5% loss? on returns, and pricing that into the business model.
For instance, you could hand your iPhone 12 to the person in the store, who gives you a receipt confirming they have the item, and then they place it in a shipping box.
Or some other method which 100% proves the customer returned the item.
Even then is it the same iPhone12 or was it swapped for an internally broken one?

Like theft from shops, it's probably just easier to chuck an extra 50p onto every item you sell to cover this, and just maintain a close eye on any customers who appear to have repeated issues with returns.

Pretty sure, as a good long term customer you'd get away with most things, just the once.

Reminds me of our charity crisp box at work.
A plastic box full of vastly overprices bags of crisps. 80p for a normal sized bad!
Amazingly people I work with buy them!

You just take the bag and put the 80p in an open pot.

Many months there is a note saying: "This is £3.50" short, if people don't put the money owing in then this will stop.

My thoughts are:
1: They are not paying anything like 80p a bag from the crisp suppliers.
As a charity I'd not even be shocked to find they are given to them free as some tax/charity kinda thing.
2: Assuming the people running the charity, who are getting paid from these sales, have a brain between them, then know a % will get not paid each month so will have priced this into their 80p

So what are the going to do?
Not give out the charity crisp box's and not get any money coming it?
 

smallieboy

Active Member
On the subject of DPD, last weekend I had an email and a text telling me my parcel - a new printer - was being delivered that day.

Later on, I was cleaning my car - which was parked outside my neighbours house - when a DPD van pulled up. The driver, who obviously didn't see me, got out, ran across the road and slipped a note through my front door, ran back and was about to get in the van when I asked if I could help. He replied that he'd tried to deliver a parcel but no-one was in. I pointed out that he didn't have a parcel with him and not only that, I live at the house and whilst I wasn't 'in' he didn't try to deliver anything other than a 'While you were out' note. He looked suitably ashamed and brought my parcel.

DPD should really say in their texts and email "We'll deliver your parcel today if the lazy ba$tard we employ to do the job can be bothered to take it out of the van"
 

Autopilot

Distinguished Member
On the subject of DPD, last weekend I had an email and a text telling me my parcel - a new printer - was being delivered that day.

Later on, I was cleaning my car - which was parked outside my neighbours house - when a DPD van pulled up. The driver, who obviously didn't see me, got out, ran across the road and slipped a note through my front door, ran back and was about to get in the van when I asked if I could help. He replied that he'd tried to deliver a parcel but no-one was in. I pointed out that he didn't have a parcel with him and not only that, I live at the house and whilst I wasn't 'in' he didn't try to deliver anything other than a 'While you were out' note. He looked suitably ashamed and brought my parcel.

DPD should really say in their texts and email "We'll deliver your parcel today if the lazy ba$tard we employ to do the job can be bothered to take it out of the van"

Sounds typical of DPD, at least that’s my experience, we have nothing but trouble with them, as does everyone in the area. Consistently the worst delivery firm, although Hermes is hot on their heels for that title recently. So much so, that it’s often a deciding factor when choosing a retailer. When I do see the drivers they state my address is wrong on the map, yet sometimes they have no trouble, and they are the only people who have an issue. If they have some kind of proprietary mapping system that’s not up to date like one driver indicated, I would be surprised for a business so reliant on finding the right address and quickly. I think its partly because I’m fairly rural and out of the way. Not because I’m hard to find, but because they can’t be arsed as it takes longer than a few drops in a small urban area, where they could probably do 5 drops or more in the time it takes to do mine. Even if they are not paid per delivery, I expect they are tightly monitored and performance measured to some degree. However in your case atleast you saw them. At mine they usually just say we were not in via email/txt. Sometimes multiple days in a row. Sometimes with random photos of people doors at houses miles away. I guess the stats look better for the drivers to blame us, and maybe it helps the firm look better to Amazon. I even recently had one driver phone me for directions (which is rare) because he had misread the address, but just gave up and I got the same “you were not in” message, despite actually speaking to me on the phone. I did complain to Amazon stating this was happening so often and have excellent CCTV, but they didn’t really care.
 
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hippo99

Distinguished Member
I think it really depends on the local drivers employed in your area. Had a DPD delivery from John Lewis this week, & DPD was perfect like it always is in my area.

Text in the morning to confirm delivery time.
Driver live location traceable on online map.
Delivered to my door within the confirmed time slot.
 

nvingo

Distinguished Member
For high value items perhaps Amazon could send out some high security packaging that the customer could video being packed up with security seals applied. Then there would be clear signs if it was tampered with en route.
It would also be a sign to the courier staff that the contents were high-value.
 

IronGiant

Moderator
Very good point :smashin:
 

NorvernRob

Distinguished Member
But there's no way to prove that, it's all on trust.

I'm guessing that Hermes don't know what's in a package they're collecting from a customer to return to Amazon. Could be any value & I suspect the vast majority are low value. So I can't see how a Hermes employee would know that this is the one to steal, unless they open every package that passes through their hands until they strike lucky.

Knowing Amazon's rep for monitoring & searching staff, it also seems unlikely that one of theirs would have the opportunity. So from their perspective, the most likely scenario is that the customer is at fault. I have no idea how this could ever be proved one way or the other short of CCTV showing the actual theft.

Edit
Just to state that I'm in no way questioning the OP's integrity or disputing his account. Just looking at it from Amazon's point of view.

Can you see where I’m coming from though? Amazon have a system whereby you can return a £1,000 (or more) item, via an insecure method of posting of their choosing - and if it goes missing it’s the customers problem? Yes, there are a %age of dishonest customers (I was a postie for over 20 years so know all about that) but you can’t automatically shift the blame onto them for something you can’t ever prove.

Like I’ve pointed out in another thread, this kind of thing is a result of the race to the bottom for ever-cheaper deliveries.
 

RBZ5416

Distinguished Member
Can you see where I’m coming from though?
Absolutely but in the crucial point here is that the package hasn't gone missing, the contents have. If the package had never arrived then the OP would be in a stronger position & Amazon/Hermes would be liable (assuming he got some sort of receipt from Hermes when they collected).

Flipping it slightly, if you made a purchase from Ebay & received an empty box, would your first thought be that you'd been scammed by the seller or the courier had stolen it?
 

NorvernRob

Distinguished Member
Absolutely but in the crucial point here is that the package hasn't gone missing, the contents have. If the package had never arrived then the OP would be in a stronger position & Amazon/Hermes would be liable (assuming he got some sort of receipt from Hermes when they collected).

Flipping it slightly, if you made a purchase from Ebay & received an empty box, would your first thought be that you'd been scammed by the seller or the courier had stolen it?

So to make that scenario equal to whats happened here, the buyer would have arranged an inadequate method of delivery and insisted the seller send it that way. Then when an empty box arrived, deny all responsibility.

I still don’t see how the courier is only responsible for delivering the box, not the contents. Look at how many PS5’s turned up as bags of rice, or air fryers or other tat. Why didn’t Amazon just say ‘well we sent a PS5, you‘re trying to scam a 2nd one out of us’.
 

aVdub

Distinguished Member
For high value items perhaps Amazon could send out some high security packaging that the customer could video being packed up with security seals applied. Then there would be clear signs if it was tampered with en route.

We use a security tape for certain exports that leave an obvious sign if the package has been tampered with and can remember mentioning this here in the past.

It would imo deter the rare light fingered courier and the buyer from returning half a brick and would imo cut down many of the issues we see now.
 

n0tna

Novice Member
Thank you all for your input.

UPDATE 14th November 2020:
I have not been contacted by any Amazon account specialists, although I was told they would get in touch with me within maximum 48h – and those hours have passed already.

I have emailed [email protected], [email protected], [email protected] and [email protected] with an extensive description of my situation with all relevant attachments in an attempt to escalate my dispute.

So far, only automatic response from [email protected]:
Delivery has failed to these recipients or groups:

[email protected]

The recipient's mailbox is full and can't accept messages now. Please try resending this message later, or contact the recipient directly.

The following organization rejected your message: EX13D49UWB004.ant.amazon.com.

And automatic reply from [email protected] too:
Thank you for your email. I have now left Amazon , if you have a customer query please email [email protected]

Best Wishes

I will be calling the Amazon customer support again today, asking to speak with a manager. Will update when/if I get any response from my emails.
 

Autopilot

Distinguished Member
Thank you all for your input.

UPDATE 14th November 2020:
I have not been contacted by any Amazon account specialists, although I was told they would get in touch with me within maximum 48h – and those hours have passed already.

I have emailed [email protected], [email protected], [email protected] and [email protected] with an extensive description of my situation with all relevant attachments in an attempt to escalate my dispute.

So far, only automatic response from [email protected]:


And automatic reply from [email protected] too:


I will be calling the Amazon customer support again today, asking to speak with a manager. Will update when/if I get any response from my emails.

Have you reported it to the police yet?
 

Tempest

Distinguished Member
We use a security tape for certain exports that leave an obvious sign if the package has been tampered with and can remember mentioning this here in the past.

It would imo deter the rare light fingered courier and the buyer from returning half a brick and would imo cut down many of the issues we see now.

This is an excellent idea, and whilst I've never had any problems with the few returns I have had to do, it would be good to use such tape in the future.

Accepting delivery also seems to be a bit of a potential issue.
Let's be honest. I imagine most people either just take the Amazon package from the driver, or find it on the doorstep.
We don't actually open the package in front of the driver, to check we have the item we ordered before he goes away.
It seems hard to prove if you tear open the packing only to discover you've been sent a brick.
After all, even if the amazon tape was torn, and perhaps a bit of sellotape holding the box shut.
We'd still open the box to see what was inside.

I can't imagine anyone would see the broken seal and not even check inside.
And of course then, how can you prove you are not trying it on?

Feel sorry for those in that position.
 

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