My 5.1 AVR supports Atmos and DTS:X but does not have eARC

PeterWesterlund

Novice Member
So my 5.1 receiver supports Dolby Atmos and DTS:X. But it doesn't have eARC. How did they think I will take part of Atmos and DTS:X then?
 

aalba6675

Novice Member
Atmos can be conveyed in Dolby Digital Plus so doesn't require eARC when the source is connected to (or lives in) the TV. E.g., streaming apps Netflix, Disney+ et al.

If the source is connected directly to the AVR, Atmos/DTS:X can be conveyed in the lossless (& more bandwidth hungry) codecs like TrueHD.

Now about the 5.1 thing - not sure how that is going to work unless the AVR has a speaker virtualiser. E.g., older Denon AVRs without a virtualiser require 5.1.2 or 7.1 to enable Atmos.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
So my 5.1 receiver supports Dolby Atmos and DTS:X. But it doesn't have eARC. How did they think I will take part of Atmos and DTS:X then?


No 5.1 AVR includes support for Atmos and or DTS:X. You'd need at least a 7 channel AVR to get Atmos and DTS:X support.

eARC is not a requirement for Atmos or DTS:X. Atmos and DTS:X metadata can be conveyed to an AV receiver via a conventional HDMI connection directly from a source. Even if you've only ARC as opposed to eARC on a TV and the AVR, you'd still be able to convey DD+ inclusive of Atmos metadata. Streaming services use DD+ to package Atmos and DD+ can be conveyed via conventional ARC.

eARC is only required if wishing to pass HD formatted audio from or through a TV such as TrueHD and DTS-HD Master audio or multichannel PCM. These would be sourced via external devices connected to a TV and then would be passed through that TV and out to an AV receiver. eARC would not be needed if the sources device is conncted directly to the AV receiver as opposed to being connected to the TV.

As I said, you'd need at least a 7 channel AV receiver anyway if wanting support for Atmos.
 
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Airvh

Novice Member
My question is almost exactly the same except I want to make sure.

TV is brand new and supports eARC. Xbox Series X supports eARC and plays 4k blu-rays with Dolby TrueHD Atmos. Receiver is 7.1/5.1.2 and supports Atmos but does not have eARC.

With this information can I watch a LOSSLESS Dolby Atmos-TrueHD blu-ray? With the above information people have posted it appears I can. Again, I just want to make sure.

Is my picture correct or totally wrong? Should the XBOX HDMI go through the TV first? Any additional information that brings it all together for me would be great.
 

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dante01

Distinguished Member
The XBox includes no incarnation of ARC. Sources do not include it or use it. You only need an Audio Return Channel to return audio from a TV out to a sounndbar or an AV receiver, hence why only TV's, soundbars and AV receivers are ARC and eARC enabled.

Arc and eARC have nothing to do with Atmos compliance or Atmos processing.

THere's no requirement to have to pass the audio through a TV in order to be able to get Atmos. THe easiet way be which to gain access to it would be a direct HDMI connection to an an Atmos enabled AV receiver.

The XBox isn't eARC enabled and it would be the TV and the AV receiver that would need to be if you did want to passthrough the multichannel PCM audio that the XBox outputs if wanting to convey Atmos metadata. eARC facilitates an audio connection from the TV to the AV receiver using the HDMI cable ordinarilly used to convey video from an AV receiver to the TV. If wanting to pas audio inclusive of Atmos sourced from an XBox through a TV and out to an AV receiver then both the TV and the AVR receiver would need to be eARC enabled. If sending the audio directly to the AV receiver via HDMI then ARC or eARC are not utilsed in any way shape or form.
 
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ozziegn

Novice Member
The XBox includes no incarnation of ARC. Sources do not include it or use it. You only need an Audio Return Channel to return audio from a TV out to a sounndbar or an AV receiver, hence why only TV's, soundbars and AV receivers are ARC and eARC enabled.

ArC and eARC have nothing to do with Atmos compliance or Atmos processing.

THere's no requirement to have to pass the audio through a TV in order to be able to get Atmos. THe easiet way be which to gain access to it would be a direct HDMI connection to an an Atmos enabled AV receiver.

The XBox isn't eARC enabled and it would be the TV and the AV receiver that would need to be if you did want to passthrough the multichannel PCM audio that the XBox outputs if wanting to convey Atmos metadata. eARC facilitates an audio connection from the TV to the AV receiver using the HDMI cable ordinarilly used to convey video from an AV receiver to the TV. If wanting to pas audio inclusive of Atmos sourced from an XBox through a TV and out to an AV receiver then both the TV and the AVR receiver would need to be eARC enabled. If sending the audio directly to the AV receiver via HDMI then ARC or eARC are not utilsed in any way shape or form.

It's my understanding one needs an eARC capable HDMI cable in order to get lossless Atmos processing. Am I wrong?
 

Jay53

Well-known Member
No 5.1 AVR includes support for Atmos and or DTS:X. You'd need at least a 7 channel AVR to get Atmos and DTS:X support.

As I said, you'd need at least a 7 channel AV receiver anyway if wanting support for Atmos.

I am not sure that's true as even dolby website has dolby Atmos setups for 3.1.2 but I assume that you've checked every single 5.1 avr available :)

If you haven't, I picked 3.1.2 as it's possible that his 5.1 system may support Atmos 3.1.2 by reconfiguring two the surround channels to front height 🙂

Or just as aalba6675 mentioned it could be accepting an Atmos source and employs virtualization for height. I doubt it will sound effective but that is a different matter entirely 😁
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
It's my understanding one needs an eARC capable HDMI cable in order to get lossless Atmos processing. Am I wrong?


It has nothing to do with the processing of Atmos. eARC facilitates the conveyance of HD formats and multichannel PCM, something not possible if using conventional ARC. The Enhanced form of ARC allows HD formats such as Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio as well as multichannel PCM to be conveyed using an eARC enabled input on a TV to the eARC enabled output on an AVR. Hiwever, TVs themselves don't have any ability to process HD formats or multichannel PCM themselves. Streaming services also do not use these formats and use SD quality Lossy DD+. All the apps onboard a TV would have no ability to handle HD formats or need to.

If you were to want or need to passthrough HD formatted audio or multichannel PCM from an external source connected to one of the other inputs on a TV then you'd need eARC to pass that audio through. The XBox uses something termed Dolby MAT to allow it to output Atmos metadata with multichannel PCM. The console basically decodes the DD+ or TrueHD encoded element of the audio package that then results in the PCM data it outputs along with the associated Atmos metadata. If you wanted to passthrough this audio through a TV and out to an AV receiver then yes, you'd need eARC to enable you to passs the multichannel PCM audio through and out of the TV.

Atmos doesn't have to be packaged with lossless HD formats and can be packaged with lossy SD Dolby Digital Plus (DD+). THis is what the streaming services package Atmos with and DD+ can be conveyed via conventional ARC. You do not need aARC to convey Atmos metadata, but you do need it to be able to convey HD formats such as TrueHD. TrueHD would only be used in conjunction with Atmos metadata if accessing the Atmos audio from a Blu-ray or UHD disc. Again, you'd only need eARC if passing this audio through the TV and out to the AVR and you'd not need it if the source device were connected directly to the AV receiver.

eARC is not a requirement for Atmos, but is needed if you need to pass HD formatted audio or multichannel pCM through a TV.

Only 7 channel and above AVR models include Atmos processing. You can get soundbars that create virtual Atmos speakers using Dolby Virtual Height processing, but there are no 5.1 channel AVRs inclusive of Atmos processing. Even the 7.1 channel models will fail to acknowledge the presence of Atmos metadata if you've only a setup with fewer than 7 speakers. Some of the latest models do include the aformentioned Dolby Virtual Height processing though and this can be used in conjunction with a 5.1 layout to create the height speakers virtually. This processing is not available on any of the current 5.1 models though.
 
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Dobbyisfree

Well-known Member
but there are no 6 channel AVRs inclusive of Atmos processing.

Is this true? I thought there were AVRs that could either be 5.1.0 or 3.1.2 like the Yamaha RX-V685?

I assume that such AVRs can process Atmos or DTS:X or Auro 3D etc when in 3.1.2 assignment or are they just up-mixing?
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
Is this true? I thought there were AVRs that could either be 5.1.0 or 3.1.2 like the Yamaha RX-V685?

I assume that such AVRs can process Atmos or DTS:X or Auro 3D etc when in 3.1.2 assignment or are they just up-mixing?


The V685 is a 7 channel AVR. Also note that Yamaha have included height (presence)speakers and their own processing to utilise them predating Atmos or even Dolby Pro Logic IIz or Audyssey DSX.

No current AV receiver with fewer than 7 channels is inclusive of Atmos processing. Whether you'd be able to fascilitate Atmos onboard a 7 channel model with fewer than 7 speakers is aniother matter, but no 5.1 model has any Atmos processing at all.

For instance, the Yamaha RXV6 is Atmos enabled while the RXV4 isn't.

There aren't that many 5.1 model still available anyway. I've a feeling that the V4 would be one of maybe 2 or 3 you can still get?

Also note that if you omit the surrounds from a setup on a Yamaha model then the receiver fails to acknowledge Atmos metadata. You can have a 3.1.2 setup, but you'd not get Atmos via it. The presence speakers can still be utilised in association with Yamaha's owm proprietary DSP processing though.

You could omit the presence speakers (height speakers) in a 7.1 setup and still get Atmos, but not a 5.1 setup.
 
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Dobbyisfree

Well-known Member
Oh I get you. So when they say "you can enjoy Atmos" in this link, it's a trick with words, they mean it won't be actual Atmos, it will be an up-mixer using the height speakers. Bit of a little con there :)
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
I just know that it isn't possible if using a 5.1 model AV receiver and that you'd not get any Atmos processing onboard an AV receiver with fewer than 7 channels. Dedicated 5.1 models don't even come equipped with Atmos processing.

I also know that if I turn off my surrounds with my RXA1080 then the AV receiver simply ignores any Atmos metadata that is present. I can have a 3.1.2 setup, but it will not acknowledge the presence of Atmos or portray Atmos.

I can on the other hand do away with the presence speakers and just have a 7.1 floor layout and still get Atmos sans the height speakers.

I cannot however do away with both the heights and the back surrounds and still get Atmos. You'd not get Atmos via a 5.1 setup.

All-in-all, Atmos is basically 7 speakers minimum regardless of the layout and in the absence of virtual height processing.
 
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Jay53

Well-known Member
The onkyo hs-3910 has dolby Atmos and dts-x decoding.

It can be set to 5.1 or 3.1.2. the ports on the back are even labeled surround/height
 
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dante01

Distinguished Member
The onkyo hs-3910 has dolby Atmos and dts-x decoding.

It can be set to 5.1 or 3.1.2. the ports on the back are even labeled rear/height
It doesn't mastter what the ports are labelled. THe labels do noy indicate wheher the AV receiver will process Atmos with a 3.1.2 setup or a 5.1 configuration.

Anyway, if it will do what you suggest then is is the only model I know of that has such abilities.

I'm not saying it isn't possible if using virtual speaker processing, I'm saying that most AV receiver manufacturers simply do not make 5.1 AV receivers inclusive of Atmos processing. Onkyo appear to be the exception to the rule?

By the way, there are no ports/speaker terminals on the rear of the ONkyo receiver labelled HEIGHT

243991-3-1200Wx1200H.jpeg



This model is in fact the HT-R398 which is the same AVR as included in the onkyo NS-3910 bundle. The bundle consists of this receiver and a fairly rudimentry 5.1 speaker package.


The ability to portray Atmos or DTS:X is facilitated by the inclusion of a Dolby Atmos Height Virtualizer (Dolby Height Virtualisation) and DTS Virtual:X. There is no provision to have actual physical height speakers. AS said, this isn't ordinarilly included on the 5.1 models eminating from other manufacturers and I cannot say that I know of another manufacturer including it on their 5.1 models?
 
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Jay53

Well-known Member
Look at the photo you posted

Surround 3 4

It has R L above and height below the connections

So yes there is provision for rear or physical front height speakers.

Manual Pg 27 shows 3.1.2 setup using front height speakers and further on covers what formats are supported for each speaker config 🙂
 
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ozziegn

Novice Member
It doesn't mastter what the ports are labelled. THe labels do noy indicate wheher the AV receiver will process Atmos with a 3.1.2 setup or a 5.1 configuration.

Anyway, if it will do what you suggest then is is the only model I know of that has such abilities.

I'm not saying it isn't possible if using virtual speaker processing, I'm saying that most AV receiver manufacturers simply do not make 5.1 AV receivers inclusive of Atmos processing. Onkyo appear to be the exception to the rule?

By the way, there are no ports/speaker terminals on the rear of the ONkyo receiver labelled HEIGHT

View attachment 1589720


This model is in fact the HT-R398 which is the same AVR as included in the onkyo NS-3910 bundle. The bundle consists of this receiver and a fairly rudimentry 5.1 speaker package.


The ability to portray Atmos or DTS:X is facilitated by the inclusion of a Dolby Atmos Height Virtualizer (Dolby Height Virtualisation) and DTS Virtual:X. There is no provision to have actual physical height speakers. AS said, this isn't ordinarilly included on the 5.1 models eminating from other manufacturers and I cannot say that I know of another manufacturer including it on their 5.1 models?

So can you please help me?

I have a 5.1.2 speaker setup with my Pioneer VSX-LX102 receiver which is a 7.2 channel receiver that supports Dolby Vision, HDR10 and Atmos. All three things I'm mainly concerned about. I also have an Apple TV device that I thought I didn't have to use anymore since the C1 has the Apple TV app which does allow me to stream my movies from iTunes. However, I recently learned that I can't simply get true Atmos sound from the C1's eArc HDMI port over to one of the HDMI inputs on my Pioneer.

Here's the back of my receiver. So should I just run my Apple TV device to one of the HDMI inputs on the Pioneer and obviously use the HDMI output for my C1 so I can get all three, Dolby Vision, HDR10 and Atmos sound? The Apple TV supports all three.

Screen Shot 2021-10-21 at 10.17.35 AM.png
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
You use eARC to facilitate the conveyance of audio from a TV to an AVR. The audio is output via the TV's eARC enabled input and is sent to the AV receiver's eARC enabled output. You do not connect the TV to one of the AV receiver's HDMI inputs.

If accessing audio via the Apple TV app on the L:G C1 then Atmos would be packaged with DD+. No streaming service uses HD TrueHD to package Atmos. DD+ inclusive of or without Atmos metadata can be conveyed via conventional ARC and eARC is not required.

If your Pioneer AV receiver in only ARC and not eARC enabled then you should still be able to output Atmos to that AV receiver via ARC using the LG C1 TV's internal apps. Connect the AV receiver's ARC enabled output to the TV's ARC enabled input. Turn on HDMI Control/HDMI CEC onboard both devices and turn ARC on. Set the TV's ARC options to just the ARC setting and set digital audio output to PASS THROUGH or AUTO.

Streaming Services do not use HD formatted audio and Atmos is only available in conjunction with Lossy SD quality DD+ if accessing Atmos via such services. You do not need eARC in order to be able to convey DD+. Using eARC would not result in you getting better audio from streaming services. You'd get the exact same audio.

I'm pretty sure that the Pioneer VSX-LX102 has no eARC capabilities and that it isn't Dolby Vision compliant?

I'd suggest you connect the Apple TV directly to one of your AV receiver's HDMI inputs. The Apple TV uses Dolby MAT to fascilitate Atmos. This means that it outputs the Atmos metadata in conjunction with multichannel PCM. Like HD formatted audio, multichannel PCM would require eARC if passing the audio through the TV so you'd only get this and the Atmos metadata when attempting to do that if both the TV and the AV receiver are eARC enabled. Connecting it directly to the AVR negates the need to use ARC or eARC.

The issue is that although you'd be able to access Atmos, you'd not be able to now passthrough Dolby Vision HDR. This is because your AV receiver isn't DV compliant. I'd suggest the best compromise is to have it connected to the AV receiver, access Atmos and then make do with static HDR10 as opposed to dynamic Dolby Vision. The AV receiver should passthrough HDR10 and this is what you'd get if the DV metadata cannot be pased through.

If desperate to get DV via the Apple TV then you'd have to connect the ATV directly to the TV, but the AV receiver isn't eARC enabled so you'd not be able to passthrough the multichannel PCM audio the Atmos metadata would be packaged with so you not get either multichannel audio or Atmos if passing the audio through the TV.

The lst resort would be to use an eARC audio extractor. This would allow you to extract the audio being output by the TV via eARC and then input it into the AV receiver via one of the AV receiver's conventional HDMI inputs. This would basically mean you could then connect the ATV directly to the TV to facilitate access to the DV HDR as well as being able to then passthrough the multichannel PCM audio that would be inclusive of any Atmos metadata. These extractors are not cheap though and not always readilly available:

 
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ozziegn

Novice Member
You use eARC to facilitate the conveyance of audio from a TV to an AVR. The audio is output via the TV's eARC enabled input and is sent to the AV receiver's eARC enabled output. You do not connect the TV to one of the AV receiver's HDMI inputs.

If accessing audio via the Apple TV app on the L:G C1 then Atmos would be packaged with DD+. No streaming service uses HD TrueHD to package Atmos. DD+ inclusive of or without Atmos metadata can be conveyed via conventional ARC and eARC is not required.

If your Pioneer AV receiver in only ARC and not eARC enabled then you should still be able to output Atmos to that AV receiver via ARC using the LG C1 TV's internal apps. Connect the AV receiver's ARC enabled output to the TV's ARC enabled input. Turn on HDMI Control/HDMI CEC onboard both devices and turn ARC on. Set the TV's ARC options to just the ARC setting and set digital audio output to PASS THROUGH or AUTO.

Streaming Services do not use HD formatted audio and Atmos is only available in conjunction with Lossy SD quality DD+ if accessing Atmos via such services. You do not need eARC in order to be able to convey DD+. Using eARC would not result in you getting better audio from streaming services. You'd get the exact same audio.

I'm pretty sure that the Pioneer VSX-LX102 has no eARC capabilities and that it isn't Dolby Vision compliant?

I'd suggest you connect the Apple TV directly to one of your AV receiver's HDMI inputs. The Apple TV uses Dolby MAT to fascilitate Atmos. This means that it outputs the Atmos metadata in conjunction with multichannel PCM. Like HD formatted audio, multichannel PCM would require eARC if passing the audio through the TV so you'd only get this and the Atmos metadata when attempting to do that if both the TV and the AV receiver are eARC enabled. Connecting it directly to the AVR negates the need to use ARC or eARC.

The issue is that although you'd be able to access Atmos, you'd not be able to now passthrough Dolby Vision HDR. This is because your AV receiver isn't DV compliant. I'd suggest the best compromise is to have it connected to the AV receiver, access Atmos and then make do with static HDR10 as opposed to dynamic Dolby Vision. The AV receiver should passthrough HDR10 and this is what you'd get if the DV metadata cannot be pased through.

If desperate to get DV via the Apple TV then you'd have to connect the ATV directly to the TV, but the AV receiver isn't eARC enabled so you'd not be able to passthrough the multichannel PCM audio the Atmos metadata would be packaged with so you not get either multichannel audio or Atmos if passing the audio through the TV.

The lst resort would be to use an eARC audio extractor. This would allow you to extract the audio being output by the TV via eARC and then input it into the AV receiver via one of the AV receiver's conventional HDMI inputs. This would basically mean you could then connect the ATV directly to the TV to facilitate access to the DV HDR as well as being able to then passthrough the multichannel PCM audio that would be inclusive of any Atmos metadata. These extractors are not cheap though and not always readilly available:


My Pioneer receiver is DV capable.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
My Pioneer receiver is DV capable.


In that vase you'd lose nothing by connecting it directly to the AV receiver. You'd lose the ability to access Atmos audio if connecting it to the TV and passing the audio through said TV because the AV receiver isn't eARC enabled. Pass the video through the AV receiver as opposed to passing the audio through the TV.
 

SeanBrothers

Active Member
"The powerful yet compact HT-S3910 transforms tinny TV sound into a thrilling sonic sensation with Dolby Atmos® and DTS:X® playback through 3.1.2 channels."

 

dante01

Distinguished Member
"The powerful yet compact HT-S3910 transforms tinny TV sound into a thrilling sonic sensation with Dolby Atmos® and DTS:X® playback through 3.1.2 channels."



So it it better than a setup incorporating physical height speakers and you'd not be emulating the same as you'd get if using a soundbar if configuring it as a 3.1 setup sans surround speakers?

The virtual height processing was originally developed for use with soundbars.

Despite the marketing that Dolby throw at it, no one should be under the impression that it will improve theirt Atmos experience compared to more conventional setups. It is a compromise and if using it then you'd not get the exact same experience as you'd get from having actual physical heights and or surrounds.
 

Jay53

Well-known Member
So it it better than a setup incorporating physical height speakers and you'd not be emulating the same as you'd get if using a soundbar if configuring it as a 3.1 setup sans surround speakers?

The virtual height processing was originally developed for use with soundbars.

Despite the marketing that Dolby throw at it, no one should be under the impression that it will improve theirt Atmos experience compared to more conventional setups. It is a compromise and if using it then you'd not get the exact same experience as you'd get from having actual physical heights and or surrounds.
Not sure what you mean. It includes height virtualizer so any non Atmos soundtrack can be converted.

But

It also supports Dolby Atmos using 3.1.2 physical speakers.

Please explain 👍
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
I believe the Pioneer VSX-534 is another 5 channel avr that supports Atmos decoding using 3.1.2 or the use of height virtualisation with other layouts.



That doesn't surprise me. Onkyo own Pioneer AV and often mirror one anothers models. They are more than likely the same model apart from the look, branding and maybe the room EQ system employed?
 

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