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Musical or Movie Sub

Discussion in 'Subwoofers' started by cjob68, Mar 5, 2003.

  1. cjob68

    cjob68
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    Hi,
    I am trying to decide what is better in determining if a sub is good or not. Using movie segments or music. I've heard that if speakers can do music really well then HT should be no problem. I currently have the Paradigm ps-1000 which is a great sub. For movies it is awesome. However, when checking out the Norah Jones DVD or Dixie Chicks it isn't as good. The notes don't seem as clear and they seem to drop off pretty quick.
    I previously had the B&W asw300 but took it back . The b&w was an awesome sub , not boomy and sounded great for music dvds. It was a toss up between the Paradigm and the B&W ASW600. In the showroom the Paradigm sounded really good , especially with Saving Private Ryan. However , it is hard to make a good judgement in a showroom because you don't have hours to listen to what you want to.
    Thus I am asking what the experts fell on this issue. If I was to take back the Paradigm and get the B&W because I know it would sound awesome w/music would it also do movies well ?

    Thanks
    cjob68
     
  2. Tom Vodhanel

    Tom Vodhanel
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    Have you experimented with alternate subwoofer locations? How about calibration levels? We often like the bass a little *hot* for action oriented DVD films...but when we switch to critical music listening this can give the bass some "bloat". How do you have the bass management settings configured?

    I'v never heard the PS1000(that I can recall offhand) but the PS1200 performed very well when I had a chance to put one thru its paces.

    Tom V.
    SVS
     
  3. cjob68

    cjob68
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    Hi,
    I have the volume set to about 55% on the sub and the crossover at 150. The reason for this is because I control the volume for the sub from my receiver and I have set the crossover for the sub at 80hz on the receiver. I have tried it in a few places but there isn't alot of opportunity with this sub because it is fairly large.

    cjob68
     
  4. deckard

    deckard
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    Can you bypass the sub crossover? If your amp is crossing everything over at 80Hz then this would be best, or is 150Hz the highest setting for the sub crossover - in which case you're spot on:smashin: .
     
  5. stranger

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    try your amp crossover at 50 60 and 70hz for music it should/might improve things.
    or use at speaker (high level) if you can.
     
  6. ASH1

    ASH1
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    Hi

    you don't say what your main speakers are, if you have B&W's
    then I would go for either the B&W ASW675 or a REL.
    You also have to look at things like the size of your room or how much you can afford to spend. I have a B&W speaker package but I use a baby REL Quake, it's great with music and film.
    Make sure you get the high level lead as this come separate with the Quake but is included with other REL- SUBS.

    ASH1
    P.s. if you go for a Rel and phone them they will probably send you the lead for free.
     
  7. Ian J

    Ian J
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    Why :confused:
     
  8. avanzato

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    Hmm.. :confused:

    I had a PS1000 and really liked it.

    Try connecting the Sub by the high level inputs rather than the LFE out and tuning it to come in under your main speakers (running full range). Probably at the lowest crossover setting and don't turn it up too loud. This should give you the best extension without the 50hz boom you can get.

    If you still don't like it with those settings then I doubt you ever will.

    If you do then you've a problem as it's not now connected to the LFE output :zonked: so the LFE will have to be redirected unless it causes problems for you main speakers.

    HTH
     
  9. cjob68

    cjob68
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    Hi,
    Yes, to clarify my speakers are B&W 601 ( l/r ) and B&W 60 for the center channel.
     
  10. EvilMudge

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    The PS1000 is not the easiest sub in the world to set up, due to it's design. If you can play with the location then you can improve it no end (I've managed to get my moneys worth of musical bottom octave response from this beast, but it wasn't easy.) However if musical performance is what you really want then look elsewhere.

    BTW I still stand by my description of a musical sub - it gives off harmonic distortion like any other musical instrument - okay for some, just not for me.
     
  11. Apocalypse

    Apocalypse
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    I had 2 PS 1000s for 4 years and for the money they are indeed great for movies, however if music is just as important to you I'd look elsewhere tbh. I've also owned the B&W ASW675 and although it is great for movies and music it's no match for a Paradigm Servo 15 or a Velo CHT-15 which are in the same price range. You might also want to look at the new Paradigm 2200, I believe russraf now owns one and they are only £300 ish I think but one look at the specs and the reviews it gets is enough to want one..........................the catch is you have to use Richer (I have to wait 7 months for my order) Sounds :rolleyes:
     
  12. stranger

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    r/sounds prestwich/ manchester branch ( just off the m62) have a 2200 on display.
     
  13. ASH1

    ASH1
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    Because if your speakers are all the same brand you will have better faze between them.
     
  14. Matt F

    Matt F
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    Mmmm... whilst tonal matching (especially across the front three) is important for the main 5 speakers (or 6/7speakers with EX/ES) there is no tonal matching with subwoofers because of the frequency range covered.

    In other words a decent sub from any manufacturer should be able to integrate with main speakers from another manufacturer as long as the crossover frequency on the sub covers the required range. To put it another way, other than perhaps cosmetic considerations, there is nothing to be gained from choosing a sub made by the same people who make your main speakers.

    Matt.

    p.s. "phase" X10 :lesson:
     
  15. ASH1

    ASH1
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    Yes but there are not many subs that are good with music.
    :lesson:
     
  16. Matt F

    Matt F
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    And that's why I said any DECENT sub. By decent I mean low distortion - a sub with low distortion i.e. an accurate sub will be excellent for both movies and music.

    In fact, I don't buy this good for movies not good for music idea - if a sub is bad for music (suggesting that it has high distortion) then it's gonna be bad for movies - some people might find a high distorting sub acceptable for movies i.e. they just like the rumble no matter how ill-defined it may be - that's fine but it doesn't make such subs good for movies.

    Unfortunately, distortion figures for subs are very hard to come by - you can probably guess why - all I will say is that, according to a well known poster on these forums (The Beekeeper) who has carried out such tests, distortion figures can vary from an amazingly low 0.5% (e.g. Velodyne HGS15/18) to a shockingly high 30% or more - and many well known/well reviewed subs are a lot nearer the latter of these figures!

    Matt.
     
  17. EvilMudge

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    Indeed Matt.

    So called musical subs commonly produce greater than 10% Total Harmonic Distortion - and get high marks from our somewhat inept/corrupt Hi Fi magazines (HCC does quite a bit better than average in this regard).
    Whereas a sub like a Paradigm Servo-15, which when measured in an anechoic chamber, produces at most 4% is considered unmusical.
    Should we all now go out and buy musical speakers that produce massive amounts of THD? Only Naim seem to think so:devil: and even their products don't distort as much as a so called musical subwoofer.

    P.S. I'm not knocking Naim, whilst I don't personally like their products, it's pretty easy for me to see why others love them.
     
  18. cjob68

    cjob68
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    I am not so much thinking of distortion but rather a sub that is tight with music but yet can "boom" with movies. I don't know if this sub exists ( especially between the paradigm ps-1000 and the b&w asw600 ) but that is what I am looking for.
    It is a toss up , either you go with something that rumbles and sounds good for movies. Or , you take something that may not rumble as much for movies but it is tight and sounds great ( blends nicely ) with music.
     
  19. Ian J

    Ian J
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    Moderators,

    People reading these posts may be influenced by them and it is your job to ensure that at the very least the posters know what they are talking about.

    This one plainly does not.
     
  20. Matt F

    Matt F
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    Distortion in subwoofers, is not the kind distortion you get when you stick an electric guitar through a fuzz box – it as any deviation from the original signal – i.e. over the top booms and rumble with movies and what some people call “slow bass” with music – it’s all distortion or, to put it plainly, the cone of the subwoofer doing things it shouldn’t be doing, be that not moving accurately or still moving when it should not be.

    So, as far as subs are concerned, think of “distortion” as “inaccuracy”. Get an accurate (low distorting) one and it will replay movie soundtracks properly - without adding any distortions of its own i.e. it will only rumble if that is what the recording dictates – and it will be spot of for music – and it will be easy to integrate with any main speakers.

    What sub should you get? Well, it seems rather old news to recommend Velodyne but at £325 (assuming the powerbuy is still on) the CHT10 should give you everything you need and, if further proof is needed, there are many CHT10 owners on this forum (not me incidentally, although I do own a Velodyne) who all seem to be delighted with their purchases.

    Matt.
     
  21. NicolasB

    NicolasB
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    Matt,

    Heartily agree with comments about distortion and accuracy.

    I suppose it's possible that different manufacturers will make different compromises for different markets: if a sub is supposed to be used for music then they might concentrate on getting it to perform with low distortion while compromising on its maximum volume and how low it can go; if the sub is intended for movies then they may focus more on all-out volume and true sub-bass, but at the cost of extra distortion. However, if you have a good sub, which will go both loud and low and keep the distortion low while it's doing it, then it should be perfectly happy no matter what you throw at it.
     
  22. ASH1

    ASH1
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    Yes I agree with some of what you say, and this is why I suggested either a B&W ASW675 or any REL SUB all of which were suggested to me by What Hi-Fi at the Bristol show.
    They do both music and film well, as apposed to M&K who are fine with film but not so good with music (in my opinion).

    ASH1
     
  23. Matt F

    Matt F
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    There are some sweeping statements in what you say fella and I can’t help but respond.

    Best advice – ignore anything What HiFi says – they know ef all about subwoofers - if you want proof then look at their reviews of the RELQ200 and the Q201 – they state that the latter is a “better, more musical sub than the Q200” which is a load of bollucks (sic) as they are the same subwoofer – the Q201 just comes with a grille and a fancy veneer finish. Also, don’t forget that What Hifi have a vested interest because many of the companies they recommend spend a lot of money advertising in that magazine.

    REL make good and not so good subs - even the good/very good ST range don’t offer the ultra low distortion that the servo controlled models from Velodyne and Paradigm can offer. With the cheaper Q range (not the older Q range) distortion can be quite an issue. Nic Rhodes/The Beekeeper would be a good person to comment here as, not only does he have the ability/equipment to measure distortion, he also owns both an REL Stentor and a couple of Paradigm Servo 15’s.

    I don’t want to have too much of a dig at REL because they don’t deserve it but you need to understand that there are alternatives that arguably offer better value for money.

    For good evidence of this have a look at the following post from one of our members (Juboy): http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=61504
    He was happy with his “5 stars wherever it goes” RELQ150 and didn’t believe all the hype about the Velodyne CHT10 – after all, how could it possibly be better than the 5 star RELQ150 when it costs a lot less. So he bought a CHT10 and put it up against the Q150 with a view to selling the loser – as the thread shows, the result wasn’t even close and the Q150 now has a new owner!

    Your comments about M&K are frighteningly off the mark – I’d go as far as to say you should be careful about posting such comments about a well respected US company! They make loads of subs – a few are aimed at movies, a couple may be more suited to movies than music, but they also make some fantastic models that are perfectly good with music – the push/pull MX range – they can compete with anything REL offer.

    To be blunt, you obviously have never listened to M&K subs so it would be best not to pass comment on them – if this assumption is wrong then please accept my apologies and enlighten us with your experiences of M&K subs and what it was about their performances that made you consider them to be unmusical.

    You’re new to the forums so I don’t want to criticise you too much but please be careful about giving opinions based on what you’ve read in or been told by What HiFi. There are some really knowledgeable people on this forum who you can learn from – I and many others have done this over the years – you will get better and more unbiased information than you will find within the pages of What Hifi.

    Finally, with a view to what I have just said, take a look through this interesting thread on subwoofers – there is more in here than you’ll find in all the issues of all the UK hifi/home cinema mags ever produced:

    http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=31044&highlight=subterfuge

    Happy reading.

    Matt.
     
  24. ASH1

    ASH1
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    . Sorry if I have cause you or anybody else offence and as far as M&K -SUBS go I have listened to them. And I think I made it clear it was ONLY MY OPINION, which I wouldn't of given other wise. But as they say one mans meat is an others man poison. At the end of the day we pay our money and make our choice, and sometimes it's not always the right one. As for me I'm very happy with my REL, maybe there are better out there in the same price range it's down to personal choice. Anyone who buys on what they read or told may end up wasting the money, and I'll say again IN MY OPINION let your own ears be the judge.

    ASH1
     
  25. Ian J

    Ian J
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    Your exact words were "you don't say what your main speakers are, if you have B&W's then I would go for either the B&W ASW675 or a REL."
     
  26. ASH1

    ASH1
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    Yes I said I would go for, "THAT'S I WOULD GO FOR" that's my opinion or what I would do. You can take it or leave it. No one holding a gun to anybody's head over this, I expressed my opinion on something. If your offended by this then I'm sorry but I stand by what I said.

    ASH1
     
  27. Timmy B

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    I had a rel q200 and imho it is a good subwoofer if you like your bass loud and very, very distorted. I had to turn it off watching ID4, it just couldnt cope.

    Now I have a hgs15, and well, apart from a big peak at 40hz I couldnt be happier.
     
  28. Timmy B

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    I raised this point a few months ago. What a stupid review. HCC done the same thing, saying the q201 had a better amp. I emailed rel and they said that was rubbish.
     
  29. FoxyMulder

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    I own a RelQ201E and i also own Independence Day on dvd its never distorted for me, i found that u needed to make sure all 4 spikes were secure and the sub didnt move and was spiked to the ground to ensure no distortion, if even 1 spike was loose the sub distorted and perhaps thats why urs distorted.

    Yayyyyyy this will please 1 of the forums members i started a new sentence, although ive been happy with my RelQ201E i might consider puttin it up for sale for £300 quid and buying a Velodyne if i can find one that goes clean to 20hz for £700 or under quid.
     
  30. Andywilliams

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    Hi all
    I own the B&Wasw675 sub and it does everything i expect of it .I know its expensive next to the big velos and pardigms on a bangs for bucks basis but for its small size and its good looks it is worth the extra.I would never argue that the asw675 is anything other than it is but it is a lot better when set up right than the relq150e and a fare few other subs ive heard.
    As i cant have a cht15 in my lounge ive had to make a compromise which i think is a good one.
    ps is it me as it seems people seem to take things too much to heart sometimes, it is only a sub.
    Gonzo;)
     

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