Motion problems on LG CX77 OLED

[AventadorSVJ]

I have recently purchased a LG CX77 OLED, moving from an ISF calibrated Pioneer KRP-500a and I come across some problems with motion.

On the Pioneer, whether watching films (24Hz), UK (50Hz), there was no visible flicker or motion issues, such as juddering or stuttering.

On 60hz based broadcasts, I could clearly see flicker, probably because it could not do 120Hz, as the Pioneer plasma panel was limited to 100Hz but again, there were no motion issues.

Moving onto the LG CX77 OLED, it can look better than the Pioneer but the motion issues are quite distracting.

I have Real Cinema enabled and it is unwatchable (no motion interpolation enabled) with 24Hz based films as the juddering/stuttering is terrible, probably because of its sample and hold technology, which makes it looks like a slide show and on panning shots, it is shocking.

I know that I am sensitive to frequency and movement, so these motion problems may not be apparent to the average AV enthusiast.

Fortunately, I have come across True Motion, which I have read bad things about (quite possibly because people can not see the motion issues, such as juddering/stuttering).

I am currently testing on the maximum (10 judder for 24/30Hz, 10 blur for everything else) and can see the interpolation artefacts but this may be a necessary evil/compromise.

I have read of some people complaining about the shift from high end plasma to OLED and can now clearly see where people are coming from.

Ultimately, the sample and hold nature does not seem to lend itself to low FPS (24Hz, 30Hz etc) and due to OLEDs natural response times, it is likely that we need a new medium to provide a more analogue approach to video recordings. i.e. move on from 24 FPS, which seems radically outdated.

However, to be fair on the LG CX77, it does look amazing with the Xbox Series X games.

It would appear that the old CRT and plasma technologies seemed to lend themselves far better to the 24 FPS and other low FPS standards.

Now my question is what can be done to improve the situation to get closer to the experience of the Pioneer KRP-500a motion (external processor, other settings on the LG CX) - any ideas?

 

[5to1]

Well you hit the nail on the head when you said it’s like watching a slideshow. Because that’s what all TVs are really doing, displaying a series of frames fast enough that it tricks you into believing you’re watching a real moving image.

You’re coming from Plasma and either weren’t sensitive to the way Plasma achieves this, or over many years have conditioned yourself to ignoring them.

Really you have four options:

1) Condition yourself to ignoring the issues with S&H.
2) Use interpolation and learn to ignore the issues that introduces.
3) Try BFI if your set has it and learn to o ignore the issues that introduces.
4) Go back to Plasma and you’re already conditioned (or predisposed) to ignoring the issues with Plasma.

Unfortunately there’s no perfect answer and likely never will be. Whatever way TVs try to trick us, a subset of viewers will unpick that trick and not be able to see past it. Hopefully that subset gets smaller over time and I appreciate it’s not nice when you’re in that group

Also wrt moving from 24fps, I bet my bottom dollar that will unleash a lot of complaints aswell. Because a lot of us have become conditioned to 24fps for movies. I know when I see HFR material my mind subconsciously thinks TV/home movie.

 

[stranger]

How do you find the problem when using 'Filmaker' mode (picture settings)?

 

[AventadorSVJ]

Well you hit the nail on the head when you said it’s like watching a slideshow. Because that’s what all TVs are really doing, displaying a series of frames fast enough that it tricks you into believing you’re watching a real moving image.

You’re coming from Plasma and either weren’t sensitive to the way Plasma achieves this, or over many years have conditioned yourself to ignoring them.

Really you have four options:

1) Condition yourself to ignoring the issues with S&H.
2) Use interpolation and learn to ignore the issues that introduces.
3) Try BFI if your set has it and learn to o ignore the issues that introduces.
4) Go back to Plasma and you’re already conditioned (or predisposed) to ignoring the issues with Plasma.

Unfortunately there’s no perfect answer and likely never will be. Whatever way TVs try to trick us, a subset of viewers will unpick that trick and not be able to see past it. Hopefully that subset gets smaller over time and I appreciate it’s not nice when you’re in that group

Also wrt moving from 24fps, I bet my bottom dollar that will unleash a lot of complaints aswell. Because a lot of us have become conditioned to 24fps for movies. I know when I see HFR material my mind subconsciously thinks TV/home movie.

I thought people would relish moving to a more realistic picture that resembles real life (120FPS should be enough) to make video more analogue like.

I am using Truemotion to overcome the the judder and stuttering and despite the artefacts, a 6 judder, 6 blur seems to be a good compromise.

Again, I think that most people can see the artefacts but juddering/stuttering/flicker is user specific and some people simply cannot see it or can only just see it.

I feel comfortably that high end plasmas (such as the Pioneer KRP-500a) out does OLED with low FPS video for absolute enjoyment (for people that are sensitive to motion) but 120FPS games on the Xbox Series X are sublime.

I do think HDR/Dolby Vision is a game changer but suspect the sample and hold technology doesn't suit the old fashioned low FPS video (24Hz et al).

Sure, even the KRP-500a has its faults (low level light artefacts) but didn't give me a headache. Watching the LG CX77 with a 24Hz film without True Motion would make me feel unwell.

 

[AventadorSVJ]

How do you find the problem when using 'Filmaker' mode (picture settings)?

I use Filmaker mode with Truemotion enabled.

Without Truemotion, it is impossible to watch a 24Hz film.

 

[MultiRoom]

Keep on dialling down those true motion settings, when you’re used to 6 turn down to 5 and so on. Once you’re at 3 or 2 you should have a really good compromise between soap opera effect and artefacts. It does take some getting used to, I know as much as anyone. But once you get used to it and overlook it, get lost in the story and the incredible depth of OLED you’ll be in a new world.

 

[5to1]

I thought people would relish moving to a more realistic picture that resembles real life (120FPS should be enough) to make video more analogue like.

Eventually I'm sure everyone will. But most of us have been conditioned to associate 24FPS with cinema/movies. So I suspect a fair few will have issues initially. Because predominantly its made for TV movies that use 50/60hz and most of us will have only seen HFR on home movies/etc.

I feel comfortably that high end plasmas (such as the Pioneer KRP-500a) out does OLED with low FPS video for absolute enjoyment (for people that are sensitive to motion) but 120FPS games on the Xbox Series X are sublime.

But just as you find S&H retinal retention particularly jarring, to a lesser degree there are people on the opposite end that have issue with Plasma (flicker, phosphor trails, etc).

Fortunately I dont mind either that much, if I concentrate I can ofcourse unpick the "trick" and start seeing issues. But that would be counter productive. I suspect most people are the same or can condition themselves to be the same over time. But yes some people will always have difficulty with either approach, which is unfortunate for them.

Its still a lot better then it used to be. At one time it was CRT or lump it. At least now we have interpolation and BFI is getting better slowly. Plus as you say HFR will arrive eventually.

 

[AventadorSVJ]

Keep on dialling down those true motion settings, when you’re used to 6 turn down to 5 and so on. Once you’re at 3 or 2 you should have a really good compromise between soap opera effect and artefacts. It does take some getting used to, I know as much as anyone. But once you get used to it and overlook it, get lost in the story and the incredible depth of OLED you’ll be in a new world.

Now at 7 judder, 7 blur.

After watching a film with lots of action and movement, the 6 judder setting was not quite enough to take the edge off the lack of frames.

I do find that 10, 10 setting can look okay on certain broadcasts but others it can look artificial and have too many artefacts.

It's trying to settle on a compromise and I definitely lean on the side of being sensitive to motion, so could never dial it down to nothing like some people suggest. I would feel very ill and I'm not sure I could even adapt to not seeing the movement problems because without any motion interpolation, it is like putting a police car with full sirens in your living room.

 

[AventadorSVJ]

But just as you find S&H retinal retention particularly jarring, to a lesser degree there are people on the opposite end that have issue with Plasma (flicker, phosphor trails, etc).

Fortunately I dont mind either that much, if I concentrate I can ofcourse unpick the "trick" and start seeing issues. But that would be counter productive. I suspect most people are the same or can condition themselves to be the same over time. But yes some people will always have difficulty with either approach, which is unfortunate for them.

Its still a lot better then it used to be. At one time it was CRT or lump it. At least now we have interpolation and BFI is getting better slowly. Plus as you say HFR will arrive eventually.

Perhaps even being on one extreme of motion sensitivity, I can categorically say that the Pioneer KRP-500a did suffer with inherent issues of its technology on low level light, especially on lower bit rate broadcasts.

The worst thing was 60Hz for example on the Xbox 360. In particular on white scenes, the flicker was pretty shocking.

50--> 100Hz was handled well, as was 24--> 72 Hz. Even 60Hz NTSC films were good as they were also detected and made 72Hz.

However, the inherent 60Hz stuff was not good.

The Xbox Series X seems to have no such issues with flicker on the LG CX77 - from a flicker perspective, it must be doing some higher frequency as I can't see it.

I also remember being around 6 years of age and I said to my parents why was the TV picture moving (it was a 50Hz flicker on a CRT). They couldn't see what I was seeing and when I went to I think Currys when I was 7, I said to my parents that there were TVs in the room that weren't flickering.

We came home with a 100Hz CRT and felt so much better watching a stable picture (feel very grateful to my parents to listening to what I was saying, yet they couldn't actually see the issue )

 

[MultiRoom]

Now at 7 judder, 7 blur.

After watching a film with lots of action and movement, the 6 judder setting was not quite enough to take the edge off the lack of frames.

I do find that 10, 10 setting can look okay on certain broadcasts but others it can look artificial and have too many artefacts.

It's trying to settle on a compromise and I definitely lean on the side of being sensitive to motion, so could never dial it down to nothing like some people suggest. I would feel very ill and I'm not sure I could even adapt to not seeing the movement problems because without any motion interpolation, it is like putting a police car with full sirens in your living room.

I hear you. I’ve been there too. I used to be able to hear the high pitched whine of a CRT tube from anywhere in the house when I was 3. Even now I can hear a cat deterent across the road if my windows are open, and I’m 46. Hypersensitivity I think it’s called. I can see the strobe effect of cheap LED lights too. It’s a gift and a handicap rolled into one.

If you can, forget about analysing the performance of your screen and immerse yourself in several (it’ll take quite a few) of your favourite films. You’ll see details not noticed before, and after a while you’ll simply get used to your screen. Go with it, and let it guide you.

Alter it after that. Maybe occasionally during.

 

[Stillstill]

Quickly got used to Smooth mode for everything except movies shot on film. For film shot movies that have that real present emulsion grain I still have to fiddle between 6-8 judder and blur, otherwise it's just so video look (no matter the frame rate, it's more about the blur of each frame) when you expect film.

 

[AventadorSVJ]

I've settled on 7 judder, 7 blur for everything.

I've had the CX77 on these settings for a couple of months and haven't even thought about tweaking.

 

[Dustyman]

Motion judder is not seen by many imo because it originates from the tuner.
I used to get it on Samsungs latest model but when I watched it through my BT TV box it was perfect.
Now buying a LG CX again notice it alot. Just started watching football through Amazon Prime and it's perfect.
Not one instance of judder when watching prime. In short if I bypass the tuner and watch movies or anything from an external hard drive it's perfect. Thought I would therefor try normal tv through BT tv box and as I thought no judder issues at all.
Using a sky box would resolve the issue also that's why many don't see it has they use external receivers ie bt, sky, virgin etc.

 

[Stillstill]

BTW, judder is horrible when streaming any content from MacBook/iPhone using AirPlay. At least on LG. And the motion smoothing options are disabled for AirPlay source, unfortunately.

 

[AventadorSVJ]

BTW, judder is horrible when streaming any content from MacBook/iPhone using AirPlay. At least on LG. And the motion smoothing options are disabled for AirPlay source, unfortunately.

Ouch - that is terrible. This will make this option unusable for those sensitive to motion issues.

 

[sam100]

I have an older set than you and I found when I purchased it I could see slight juddering which was annoying. I also came from plasma and worried it wouldn't be suitable for me. After alot of adjusting I simply found that it was true motion causing the problem and simply turning it off made the tv look very smooth ironically.

I'm sure you've tried it but just incase.

Neil

 

[Doctor Hades]

I've owned a 55" LG B9 OLED since August 2019 as an upgrade to a 40" Sony Bravia LCD TV and was initially extremely impressed with the quality of the image. OLED is definitely hard to beat for contrast and black levels, for sure. However, I started to notice issues while watching 24 fps 4K discs on my Panasonic UB820 on panning shots, such as a helicopter view of a car driving along a road. It looked 'wrong' but I couldn't exactly see what the problem was. It looked blurry and not at all as smooth in motion is it was on my previous LCD TV. It actually hurt my eyes to watch it.

I then did some reading on this issue as well as watched a few YouTube videos and it seems this is an issue with all OLEDs due to their fast pixel response times. What I cannot get my head around is why!

Surely, if a panel can display pixels quickly and a movie is playing back at a consistent 24 frames per second then the motion should look perfectly smooth? Presumably, the TV is displaying each frame for longer than it takes to actually display it so it should be perfect, right? Each frame would display for 41.67ms then another one is shown for 41.67ms and so on.

I have noticed that 30 fps console games can look a little blurry and unsmooth in motion too (at 33.33ms per frame) but this is less of an issue now with the PS5 and Xbox Series X, which both target 60 fps as standard for most games and look fine in motion (as does 120 fps at 120 Hz).

So why does OLED have this issue? What is it that I am not understanding?

 

[iwb100]

I've owned a 55" LG B9 OLED since August 2019 as an upgrade to a 40" Sony Bravia LCD TV and was initially extremely impressed with the quality of the image. OLED is definitely hard to beat for contrast and black levels, for sure. However, I started to notice issues while watching 24 fps 4K discs on my Panasonic UB820 on panning shots, such as a helicopter view of a car driving along a road. It looked 'wrong' but I couldn't exactly see what the problem was. It looked blurry and not at all as smooth in motion is it was on my previous LCD TV. It actually hurt my eyes to watch it.

I then did some reading on this issue as well as watched a few YouTube videos and it seems this is an issue with all OLEDs due to their fast pixel response times. What I cannot get my head around is why!

Surely, if a panel can display pixels quickly and a movie is playing back at a consistent 24 frames per second then the motion should look perfectly smooth? Presumably, the TV is displaying each frame for longer than it takes to actually display it so it should be perfect, right? Each frame would display for 41.67ms then another one is shown for 41.67ms and so on.

I have noticed that 30 fps console games can look a little blurry and unsmooth in motion too (at 33.33ms per frame) but this is less of an issue now with the PS5 and Xbox Series X, which both target 60 fps as standard for most games and look fine in motion (as does 120 fps at 120 Hz).

So why does OLED have this issue? What is it that I am not understanding?

Is it not that the faster pixel response time exposes more of the judder compared to LCD where said judder is blurred by slower pixel response?

That was always my understanding.

 

[AventadorSVJ]

Is it not that the faster pixel response time exposes more of the judder compared to LCD where said judder is blurred by slower pixel response?

That was always my understanding.

You are correct. Effectively, LCD technology smooths the frames out, rather than being instaneous.

OLED ultimately exposes the very low frame rate that films are recorded in (typically 24). We need much higher FPS but this costs more money, especially for special effects.