Motion blur on plasma screens.

Discussion in 'Plasma TVs Forum' started by BYF, Apr 26, 2007.

  1. BYF

    BYF
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    I recently got a new plasma screen a panasonic 37inch px70, whilst im very happy with the overall performance of the set im still not totally convinced with how it handles fast motion.

    To my eyes I still see a small amount of motion blur, mainly during fast camera pans, but nowhere near as much as I experience on LCD TVs even the 100hz ones, and yes this is with a HD Gaming source.

    So why am I seeing motion blur? Is it the sample and hold thing that LCDs exhibit as illustrated here........http://www.*/news/2007/04/23/100120-hz-lcd-why-should-you-take-a-look/

    Im not quite sure how Plasma technology works, I know CRT's flicker and the picture is redrawn and painted on the screen with a blank
    screen in between. This is why fast motion looks so good on a CRT IMO.

    But how do Plasma screens paint the image on the screen?
     
  2. andrewfee

    andrewfee
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    Plasmas might be better than LCD for keeping sharpness with motion, but they do still blur - they just blur differently:

    http://www.*/news/2007/04/01/plasma-phosphor-trail/

    In my opinion the way a plasma tends to blur is a lot more obnoxious than an LCD, but it seems less people notice it. (or maybe they only look for it on LCD as that's where it's usually mentioned)
     
  3. BYF

    BYF
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    What I'm seeing I don't believe is phosphor trail, I know what that looks like, and it appears a different thing.

    I have a very sensitive eye to motion blur which is real pain, the only TV's I'm completely happy with in regard to motion are CRT monitors and TV's.

    I can live with the level of motion blur I have on my new plasma as its a cracking all rounder for the money IMO, I'm just curious to know why I still see some motion blurring during faster camera pans, and why motion isn't as good as CRT.
     
  4. norfbech

    norfbech
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    Bit curious myself (yes, it's different to phosphur trail) - progressive footage eg films, has to shot a certain way (really slow pans, following the action with camera etc) otherwise you see motion blurs/judders (usually in the background of car chases, it's just you concentrate on the action in the forefront).
    I was under the impression that LCD's/Plasma's were progressive and therefore this would be less noticeable not more??
    My plasma really shines when watching movies (not so hot on interlaced TV shows), but you do notice this motion blur/judder...I guess it's the nature of this medium unfortunately.
     
  5. BYF

    BYF
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    I only really notice it when gaming on my 360 or PS3 or PC even in HD resolutions, when i connect the same game up to my CRT monitor or TV there is no detectable motion blur at all.
     
  6. Mister-E

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    Yes same here but I can live with it on the plasma no worries. But what I hate is seeing motion/zooming jerk, that does my head in :)
     
  7. Christolito

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    Noticed some blur when watching hockey and soccer, from digital cable tv.

    Ive tried changing from 100hz to 50hz, and it seems that this reduces the motion blur.

    ??? What does the hz setting do?
     
  8. gizlaroc

    gizlaroc
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    Swtching to 100hz will get rid of flicker (although I don't see it on progressive screens) but switching to 50hz with give you a smoother image.
     
  9. jetinder

    jetinder
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    I thought the PX70 was meant to be better than last years tvs, on my PX600 i never seen motion blur at all, for fast moving things it behaves like CRT (perfect) :) but like other PX60 and PX600 users we still have those POXY purple snakes which still aint been fixed by panasonic.
     
  10. norfbech

    norfbech
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    Do credit rolls on your set suffer motion blur? Noticed that on a couple of shows this evening (the rolls were fairly fast moving...usually the american shows)...not entirely fussed but it's something I've picked up on.
     
  11. Christolito

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    Nothing ive noticed, but i will check for it. Still the vertical movement that seems worst.

    Still dont get why the 50hz-mode would produce a "smoother" image?
     
  12. choddo2006

    choddo2006
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    Because the source is 50Hz so you don't get any processing artefacts
     
  13. choddo2006

    choddo2006
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    They charge a small cell for each pixel (one each of red, green, blue) which passes a voltage across a gas which in turn emits light of a certain frequency.

    They can only be on or off so they light each pixel thousands of times a second, in order to create different shades.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_TV has some interesting history
     
  14. Christolito

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    Then why should you use the default 100hz mode?
     
  15. stanleyntl

    stanleyntl
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    I've seen pixellation on the main broadcasters SKY channels, when large objects move e.g. people (BBC,CH4 etc).
    It's like the movement isn't fluid. What would cause this?

    This effect was horrendous on a SKY HD box set at 1080i output, changing to Auto, sorted this (over HDMI).
    But I have also seen this with std or SKY+ boxes.
    :confused:
     
  16. choddo2006

    choddo2006
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    I wouldn't. Seems very odd to have it as default. Not quite sure what it's supposed to achieve. Maybe the pixels flicker on & off twice as quickly reducing plasma flicker for those sensitive to it.
     
  17. choddo2006

    choddo2006
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    That'll be a combination of the Sky box being rubbish at converting SD to 1080i and the TV then having to deinterlace & scale that rubbish output back down to its native res.


    Have you seen the same problem on standard Sky boxes on the same or different TV?
     
  18. gizlaroc

    gizlaroc
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    50hz is not a very quick refresh rate and some people will see flicker at this refresh, although not many and less likely on a progressive display like a plasma, to get round this brands added 100hz, so it shows the same frame twice, only problem with this is some people see judder which can be more annoying than flicker. But good to have an option.
     
  19. scottyf

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    im glad someone else notices this on there panny.i thought my eyes were going.my 50px60 seems to suffer this its like blur jurky motion on camera movments.
    this is my only complaint with this set.which to my eyes really lets it down.i would go as far as to say that its a panasonic problem.

    my previous set a 42" swisstec plasma(notice not the best tv around)did not suffer this at all(not to my eyes anyway)and this is a cheap tv.granted the pq wasnt as good as the panny but it could handle motion better.

    the source seems to have something to do with it but even on dvd i still get it(although not as bad)

    it doesnt seem to bother most people in the house except me so i guess my eyes are just sensitive to this tv.i can watch the swisstec and my 28crt without any problems at all.but the panny seems to hurt my eyes.which is a let down as its the main tv:eek:
     
  20. s1m0n

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  21. BYF

    BYF
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    no jerky motion here on camera pans, just the usual loss of detail (blurring) on fast camera pans. still its much better than on all the LCD's ive seen and tried, just not quite up to CRT standards.

    jerky movement on pans is more likely to be 3:2 pulldown of 24fps and NTSC video.
     
  22. stanleyntl

    stanleyntl
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    Your correct in the first instance, but I've also seen this on a PX70 with a RGB scart connection to standard SKY box. Also seen it on a SKY+ connected to Hitachi 7500 plasma. The effect is not as bad as the 1080i rubbish, but nowhere near as fluid as say a CRT.
    Seen this with Snooker & films.
     
  23. deanos

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    Ive noticed it on fast moving credits but thats the only time it happens, seems to be alot worse with white on black background.
     
  24. Nielo TM

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    When capturing a video in full motion detail (50-60i/p), there'll be visible motion blur during fast movement/panning (click here). This is caused by exposure over a period of time. To reduce/eliminate this effect, camera with high shutter speed is required.

    Computer generated images on the other hand are rendered in stills (like hand-drawn cartoons). They have zero exposure time (click here). This method does not cause any form of motion blur unless it was deliberately applied.


    >>>>>>>>>> Click here for detailed info <<<<<<<<<<



    Note: Poor de-interlacers, scalers and video enhancers can cause severe motion blur when displaying interlaced videos on a progressive screen.

    I would like thank the users over at the videohelp forums and AVF for assisting me on this subject.
     
  25. BYF

    BYF
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    I've started to get use to the slight blur/loss of detail on my plasma now during camera pans, but it still does happen, most noticeable when gaming (inc HD), although nowhere near as bad as my LCD's.

    The only TV's/Monitors that I'm completely happy with when it comes to fast camera pans is good old CRT, they may be old, big, bulky have dodgy geometry etc, but they are top of the league for motion handling.

    Thats why my PS2 and Pro Evo 6 are still set up on my CRT,
    flawless motion!! :thumbsup:
     
  26. SimonTSM

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    This is called mosquito noise. MPEG2/4 splits the image into many 16x16 pixel blocks, and then processes each block. You will notice these blocks more on moving images.
     
  27. norfbech

    norfbech
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    And noticeable on certain channels over others. Footballers (at least on my set up) have a halo of these around them...bit like those old ready brek adverts...except instead of a red glow it's this blocky 'mosquito' noise business. The better channels and DVD's especially don't really show this - is this noticeable if at all in HD? Is there a link between movies (which are shot progressively) and TV shows (for the most part interlaced) and this type of 'defect'?
     
  28. choddo2006

    choddo2006
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    No it's not dependent on interlaced vs progressive.

    HD doesn't show it on my screen. You do get some blocking noise in the grass towards the far side of the pitch sometimes, but none of that crap around the players that ITV suffers from
     
  29. norfbech

    norfbech
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    ITV is the pits, both content and quality of broadcasts...watching the news tonight and aside from the ultra soft look, for some reason you get black bars on the edge of the screen??

    Thanks for the reply by the way...roll on affordable HD...!
     
  30. baseline

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    Im stunned at the amount of people who dumped their CRTs, for the latest and 'best' flat TVs.

    its now 2007, and these flat tvs are still plagued with motion blur problems, ghosting, trailing, LCD motion lag, and generally full of artefacts and image processing noise.

    IMO the only time a flat tv looks good, is when it is switched OFF.....they do look really nice then.

    basically, the tech is just not good at displaying moving images......period....

    a CRT with its electron gun, and complete image refresh , even interlaced, is relatively perfect, compared to other tech.s.

    CRTS are big and heavy....

    but thats like dumping your Bentley, to buy the latest Nissan Micra, cos its full of the latest technology......

    believe me, I would LOVE to be able to buy a large flat TV, that I could watch without image motion problems, and all the other artefacts,, mosquito noise especially I can not tolerate.............

    until that day comes, Im sticking with CRT, thank you very much........;)
     

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