Motion blur in games - can LCD ever cut the mustard?

JagoPlasma said:
ha ha maybe the motion blur people have been seeing (and complaining about)in xbox 360 games is actually from the screens and not effects built into the game! :rotfl:


No you are wrong!

All developers are banging on about using motion blur because it is supposed to mask frame rate issues and jaggies.

You have NOT been keeping up with whats going on with the XboX 360 and it's games if you dont know that they are all using motion blur. Every single developer is going on about it like its the next coming of jesus ***. Where have you been hiding for god sake? :p

Motion blur is used heavily in PGR3. Just download the latest video of the game and see for yourself.

Motion Blur is the new thing. :suicide:

I think it's a complete load of crap tbh.

We now have almost blur free LCD's then the developers go and add it to their games, ***. :rolleyes: Now instead of having crytal clear HD displays we are going to have misty blurry displays. Can you ****ing believe it? :thumbsdow

Bizzare claim that they dont need to run PGR3 at 60fps because of motion blur. No wtf happend to this almighty console that could run at 60 fps? Also, the talk of "jaggies being a thing of the past" is BS too because someone asked Rare if their lasted demo of PD0 was using AA and they said "NO". They then asked why they wer'nt using it because all games were supposed to be "jaggie free" and they said that they did'nt need to use it because the "Motion Blur effect" masked the jaggies. :rolleyes:

So far everythign points to the fact that they are using motin blur because the XboX360 isn't as powerful as they said it was. If it was then why do we need motion blur to mask frame rate issues and jaggies? There should'nt be any frame rate issue and the mahcine should be powerful enough to handle AA.

Motion blur is just a cop out and it looks *****. I would rather have a lower frame rate and jaggies, over a blurred image. I'm not buying a crstal clear HD LCD to have a nasty blurred CRT like image. ***. :rolleyes:
 
tjradiohead said:
Where did you read this?

doesnt sound true to me :rolleyes:

It's true. It's a well known fact that developers are using motion blur to mask frame rate and jaggies issues.

No end of developers have adimitted to using it.

Bizzare and Rare have said they are using it so they don't have to use AA to remove jaggies, and because they can make the gap from 30 to 60 fps less noticable with "Motion Blur".

So you either have a rubbish frame rate and jaggies, or you have a blurred picture with better frame rate and less visible jaggies. :thumbsdow
 
I think people need to calm down.

the motion blur in PGR3 looks great from the videos I've seen. No, its no excuse not to try for 60fps but it does add to the quality of the image.

Don't forget that the TV and movies you watch also has motion blur, as the camera shutter is open for a fixed amount of time and objects can move in that time. Thats why stop motion animation can look 'odd'.
 
Shin Gouki said:
It's true. It's a well known fact that developers are using motion blur to mask frame rate and jaggies issues.

No end of developers have adimitted to using it.

Bizzare and Rare have said they are using it so they don't have to use AA to remove jaggies, and because they can make the gap from 30 to 60 fps less noticable with "Motion Blur".

So you either have a rubbish frame rate and jaggies, or you have a blurred picture with better frame rate and less visible jaggies. :thumbsdow

Do you have any links to this information?
 
richard plumb said:
I think people need to calm down.

the motion blur in PGR3 looks great from the videos I've seen. No, its no excuse not to try for 60fps but it does add to the quality of the image.

Don't forget that the TV and movies you watch also has motion blur, as the camera shutter is open for a fixed amount of time and objects can move in that time. Thats why stop motion animation can look 'odd'.

I dont like it in movies either. My eyes just cant keep up with the picture and i'm always strainning to keep up with the picture. I notice this when corners are taken in PGR3 too. It's difficult for me to focus on the corners because the motion blur effect makes my eyes go out of focus. It's too visible on video games and i think games have been fine without it up until now.
 
tjradiohead said:
Do you have any links to this information?

"In the next generation frame rate will become much less important," says Wilson, "because when you apply HDR and these lighting effects and run with motion blur, you can't tell the difference at 60. You don't notice that much difference because the motion blur takes a lot of it away."

http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=60899

There's more, just do a google for it.

This is a quote from a PD0 video interview at Xboxyde-

"are you using anti aliasing?"

Rare guy says "no, we are using motion blur, which provides the anti aliasing"
 
i dont understand the point... motion blur is just a way to reproduce reality, you can see motion blus everywhere, when you are in your car if you look at a tree the tree is blurred a lot, if you look a train running it is blurred too.

If the pixels of your lcd were moving at 200 mph while you play PGR on xbox 360 with no blur you were going to see them blurred anyway.

The blur that we actually see on our lcd is more a sort of ghosting and it was awful when, with the old lcds, something that was moving slowly was "blurred".
 
Motion blur will not be used in all Xbox 360 games, infact the only game I know of that is actually using it is Project Gotham Racing 3. Games such as Kameo will be using Depth of Field effects, blurring the background past a certain point, giving the illusion of focus. Many games will be using High Dynamic Range lighting, which will include a light "blooming" effect, which will soften the edges of objects, making aliasing ("jaggies") less visible. Many games will also be using "anti-aliasing" to help reduce "jaggies" anyway.

The only reason I can think you're assuming games will have motion blur is from watching videos of games, as this will make it look like motion blur. (because many are running at 60fps, with the video at 30, or are not in sync with the camera)

As for motion blur in games next-gen? Forget what you've seen before. Every game before PGR3 has been doing a really "cheap" (as in performance hit) and nasty blur that just blended frames together. The Grand Theft Auto series (one that I don't personally enjoy) has the option to use this in game, and it looks awful in my opinion, just how an older LCD smearing would look.

PGR3, from what I can tell (and I will know for certain later tonight) appears to be using "proper" simulated motion blur. Rather than just blending frames, making it look like smearing, it seems to be simulating motion blur like the human eye would.

I'm sorry about the size, but here's an example.

This is motion blur using frame blending, as has been done in previous games:
cubeblur24wv.gif


This is "properly" simulated motion blur - the kind I believe we are going to see in PGR3:
cubeblur12eo.gif
 
you going to the press thing tonight Andrew? Jammy get :)

Let us know how it is
 
andrewfee said:
Motion blur will not be used in all Xbox 360 games, infact the only game I know of that is actually using it is Project Gotham Racing 3. Games such as Kameo will be using Depth of Field effects, blurring the background past a certain point, giving the illusion of focus. Many games will be using High Dynamic Range lighting, which will include a light "blooming" effect, which will soften the edges of objects, making aliasing ("jaggies") less visible. Many games will also be using "anti-aliasing" to help reduce "jaggies" anyway.

The only reason I can think you're assuming games will have motion blur is from watching videos of games, as this will make it look like motion blur. (because many are running at 60fps, with the video at 30, or are not in sync with the camera)

As for motion blur in games next-gen? Forget what you've seen before. Every game before PGR3 has been doing a really "cheap" (as in performance hit) and nasty blur that just blended frames together. The Grand Theft Auto series (one that I don't personally enjoy) has the option to use this in game, and it looks awful in my opinion, just how an older LCD smearing would look.

PGR3, from what I can tell (and I will know for certain later tonight) appears to be using "proper" simulated motion blur. Rather than just blending frames, making it look like smearing, it seems to be simulating motion blur like the human eye would.

I'm sorry about the size, but here's an example.

This is motion blur using frame blending, as has been done in previous games:
cubeblur24wv.gif


This is "properly" simulated motion blur - the kind I believe we are going to see in PGR3:
cubeblur12eo.gif

I've seen motion blur Frame Blending in every single XboX 360 video i've downlaoded. It happens worse in some games. Some game use REAL Motion Blur like PGR3 but even then i still don't like it.

It's not just about the camcorder not being in sync either. The fake motion blur (Frame Blending, which results in nothing more than ghosting) is in the latest official HD 720p CoD2 trailer which is captured driectly, not with a camcorder.

Frame Blending Motion Bluir is just a failed attempt at REAL motion blur and is a waste or proccessing power, and like you said, looks awful.

Now, even when Motion Blur is done right i still don't like it and it does'nt look more realistic either. We've had many games that havn't used motion Blur and they look good enough to me. I can live without it.
 
Shin Gouki said:
I've seen motion blur Frame Blending in every single XboX 360 video i've downlaoded. It happens worse in some games. Some game use REAL Motion Blur like PGR3 but even then i still don't like it.

It's not just about the camcorder not being in sync either. The fake motion blur (Frame Blending, which results in nothing more than ghosting) is in the latest official HD 720p CoD2 trailer which is captured driectly, not with a camcorder.

Frame Blending Motion Bluir is just a failed attempt at REAL motion blur and is a waste or proccessing power, and like you said, looks awful.

Now, even when Motion Blur is done right i still don't like it and it does'nt look more realistic either. We've had many games that havn't used motion Blur and they look good enough to me. I can live without it.
I've only seen motion blur in Gotham, and haven't checked out CoD2 (yet ANOTHER WW2 game... :boring: ) but nothing else I know of uses it. CoD2 runs at 60fps, so it has to either blend or throw away frames to get it down to 30fps for video, which could be why it looks like this.

It is far from every game.
 
Check out UBisofts new release on the PS2:-

"MOTIONBLUR"

great game,

unfortunately more motion blur than the eye can discernably take! :(
 
xprezz said:
Its looking great for most of us with high quality low price alternatives like sonys new S and V series. I have demoed loads of LCD's and played countless xbox games on a samsung 26" LCD and never had a problem.

Feel free to find as many problems with any given diplay technology, while you do that I am going to be playing PD0 and PGR3 on my Xbox360 hooked to a shiny new Sony V40 LCD.. And enjoying it!
I have no doubts many people will be able to enjoy the visual feast the X360 is bringing us this december... at a price.

hidef gaming is gorgeous regardless of ghosting, less than stellar contrast ratios and imperfect color reproduction. If it was just a matter of visual quality I would buy a LCD tomorrow. However I have spent too many hours honing my skills in fast paced games such as Burnout, Halo or Ikaruga to let lag mess up with my reaction times now.

It just doesn´t feel the same to play fast action games in LCDs as it does in CRTs, and that's something I can't swallow. For better or for worse, I'm a bit more serious about my gaming than that...
 
JorgeP said:
I have no doubts many people will be able to enjoy the visual feast the X360 is bringing us this december... at a price.

hidef gaming is gorgeous regardless of ghosting, less than stellar contrast ratios and imperfect color reproduction. If it was just a matter of visual quality I would buy a LCD tomorrow. However I have spent too many hours honing my skills in fast paced games such as Burnout, Halo or Ikaruga to let lag mess up with my reaction times now.

It just doesn´t feel the same to play fast action games in LCDs as it does in CRTs, and that's something I can't swallow. For better or for worse, I'm a bit more serious about my gaming than that...

That's assuming you have some sort of horrible LCD that takes a few seconds to upscale the video.
 
JorgeP said:
I have no doubts many people will be able to enjoy the visual feast the X360 is bringing us this december... at a price.

hidef gaming is gorgeous regardless of ghosting, less than stellar contrast ratios and imperfect color reproduction. If it was just a matter of visual quality I would buy a LCD tomorrow. However I have spent too many hours honing my skills in fast paced games such as Burnout, Halo or Ikaruga to let lag mess up with my reaction times now.

It just doesn´t feel the same to play fast action games in LCDs as it does in CRTs, and that's something I can't swallow. For better or for worse, I'm a bit more serious about my gaming than that...
Wow what a bizzare thread,in general ,nd what a bizzare reply.

Playing games on a great new LCD is much better than playing games on a CRT.I don't know what LCDs you have in mind but my Hitachi LD7200 has transformed the xbox into a new console.Games like Ninja Gaiden and DOA:U look out of this world on this tv,no comparison with a CRT.Better colours,no ghosting/blurring at all and amasing image quality.As for the new burnout(since you mention it) it looks a ton better on my LCD.

Games that use AA and used to look blurry on a CRT(like PGR2 and Forza) are crisp and beatiful on the Hitachi.

Oh and about motion blurring being used in xbox360,all i have to say is that the motion blur in PGR3 is totally realistic and great looking and blows away just about every graphical trick used so far in racing games.
 
I think a good test at the moment is to demo a unit during this snooker season. I'd be interested in what owners of various makes and models make of this - I was demoing (albeit briefly) a new Sharp LC37GD7E and was very impressed with how smooth the pictures looked (off terrestrial only unfortunately as the Freeview wasn't tuned in), certainly in comparison to the previous GD1E and GA series which I found very grainy on both terrestrial and freeview. Clearly their hookup with Loewe has paid dividends.

BUT, when looking at the snooker there was a faint but noticiable white 'tail' on the cue ball as it moved around the table. Certainly this wasn't at all visible on any of the Sony or Loewe TVs in the shop. I don't know if the Quick Shoot circuit was on or not, but even so it should be 'sharp' out of the box, surely (ahem).

Anyone else noticed this?
 
JorgeP said:
hidef gaming is gorgeous regardless of ghosting, less than stellar contrast ratios and imperfect color reproduction. If it was just a matter of visual quality I would buy a LCD tomorrow. However I have spent too many hours honing my skills in fast paced games such as Burnout, Halo or Ikaruga to let lag mess up with my reaction times now.

It just doesn´t feel the same to play fast action games in LCDs as it does in CRTs, and that's something I can't swallow. For better or for worse, I'm a bit more serious about my gaming than that...
It may not "feel" the same for whatever reason, but there is no lag in progressive scan on current generation LCD televisions.

I regularly play Ikaruga, with no problems. There is a little lag with interlaced content, but that can be sorted out with an XRGB2+ de-interlacer. (although I hear Sharp LCDs can be set to "interlaced" mode, removing the need for one of these) When hooked up through the XRGB2+ games like Radiant Silvergun show no lag whatsoever, and look better than I've seen on any other display.
 
I play my xbox through scart RGB and I hardly notice any bluring at all, and thats obviously interlaced as well. I have a Samsung LE26R41BD.
 
Fact is that some people are more susceptible to the phenomena than others...
It was the same with the rainbow effect on DLPs, the same with PJ's...
 
JorgeP said:
I have no doubts many people will be able to enjoy the visual feast the X360 is bringing us this december... at a price.

hidef gaming is gorgeous regardless of ghosting, less than stellar contrast ratios and imperfect color reproduction. If it was just a matter of visual quality I would buy a LCD tomorrow. However I have spent too many hours honing my skills in fast paced games such as Burnout, Halo or Ikaruga to let lag mess up with my reaction times now.

It just doesn´t feel the same to play fast action games in LCDs as it does in CRTs, and that's something I can't swallow. For better or for worse, I'm a bit more serious about my gaming than that...

I am very serious about my gaming as well, which is why I am replacing my 32" Sony CRT with a new Sony LCD. If you experience lag on a new LCD hooked up with progressive scan then it might be your eyes. You can discuss all mater of visual defects from one display to another, but LAG? please..
 
JorgeP said:
I was hopeful about the Samsung though, being the screen chosen by Microsoft to show off the 360 and all, so I did a test of sorts with the LE-26R51BH model. Everyone I showed both the LCD and CRT displaying the same PC desktop noticed how the opening and closing of folders happened slightly before on the CRT than in the Samsung LCD.

Well it wasn't as bad as a full one second delay, but as I said it was noticeable by everyone I showed it to. I was using VGA cable and powerstrip to achieve 1:1 mapping; being 1366*768P, it couldn't be due to de-interlacing.

I understand not everybody needs to be bothered by this, but I am, so if by any chance someone determines by whatever method that there's absolutely no delay in a given 26'' or so LCD, I'd be really glad to know the model so I can hunt it down in MediaMarkt :)
 
xprezz said:
I am very serious about my gaming as well, which is why I am replacing my 32" Sony CRT with a new Sony LCD. If you experience lag on a new LCD hooked up with progressive scan then it might be your eyes. You can discuss all mater of visual defects from one display to another, but LAG? please..

A few TVs take about half a second to upscan the video and some of them even drop frames from interlaced or low resolution progressive signals. A few models even end up frame dropping. :eek:
Although it tends to affect low resolution progressive signals rather medium resolution PAL or NTSC interlaced.
320*200p tends to make LCDs and Plasmas flip out
 
hmm, this is all interesting, my jvc 28" crt must be real bad because I get trails in dark games, too!!

So atleast when I move up to my hdtv lcd I won't suffer much cus my old CRT is so bad :)
 
Good to see that nearly 3 years on we're still suffering from the same problems :rolleyes:

As always some people don't notice it but it really depends on the individual and what type of content they are watching.

For gaming any footie game will help bring the flaws out of any lcd.
 

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