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Motion blur in games - can LCD ever cut the mustard?

Ramspeed

Novice Member
Hi all

I am a Sony V32 owner. This excellent LCD boasts an incredibly fast 8ms panel. Yet I still get slight blurring with games (yes, I'm using good component cables, yes I'm running the games @ 480p/720p). The blurring is subtle, a slight loss of focus when panning around. It's the same on all games on all consoles.

I have noticed owners of nearly all the current LCD's admitting this problem. The JVC DS6, the Samsung, the Hitachi. Can't comment on the Panny TX500. Is there an LCD out there that can display games without any blur whatsoever? If not...why not? It's clearly not a matter of panel response time anymore. Is it an inherent problem with the technology? Is there a solution?
 

andrewfee

Novice Member
Unfortunately, while it's listed as being 8ms, it's likely that the panel isn't even under 16ms for all transitions, which is why there's still blurring. Once we start seeing panels with a true below 16ms response time, they'll be perfect for gaming. (there's one PC monitor I'm aware of that is capable of this - Viewsonic's VP191B)

If a display is capable of a "true" 16ms, then it will no longer be an issue. (16ms means it'll be capable of displaying 62.5fps)

Philips' ClearLCD technology which uses a strobing backlight should eliminate this issue if it works as well as they say it does. (and I have no reason to doubt it) Essentially because it's strobing (at 100/120Hz) you only see the pixels in their final state, and not during the transition period, which means that you no longer see the blur. (even though it's still there)
 

PUD the Ancient

Active Member
Ramspeed said:
Hi all

I am a Sony V32 owner. This excellent LCD boasts an incredibly fast 8ms panel. Yet I still get slight blurring with games (yes, I'm using good component cables, yes I'm running the games @ 480p/720p). The blurring is subtle, a slight loss of focus when panning around. It's the same on all games on all consoles.

I have noticed owners of nearly all the current LCD's admitting this problem. The JVC DS6, the Samsung, the Hitachi. Can't comment on the Panny TX500. Is there an LCD out there that can display games without any blur whatsoever? If not...why not? It's clearly not a matter of panel response time anymore. Is it an inherent problem with the technology? Is there a solution?
Try the philips 37PF9830, I have not seen any blurring on that with both pal 576i games and ntsc 480p games, 6ms response time. :thumbsup:
 
F

freekbear

Guest
Ramspeed said:
Hi all
I have noticed owners of nearly all the current LCD's admitting this problem. The JVC DS6, the Samsung, the Hitachi. Can't comment on the Panny TX500. Is there an LCD out there that can display games without any blur whatsoever? If not...why not? It's clearly not a matter of panel response time anymore. Is it an inherent problem with the technology? Is there a solution?
I've played Chronicles of riddick over the weekend, escape from butcher bay, on my LG 32LP1D -Not seen any blur, connected at 1360x768, 1:1 over DVI from a Radeon 9800 Pro.
Ditto for NFS 2 Underground.

Panel is a claimed 8ms Grey-to-Grey.
 
M

Madshark

Guest
Tested Far Cry Instincs on xbox connected to my Panny TX32LXD500 last night. It was superb ... I didn't play for very long but did not realise any bluring?? I will play a bit longer next time and look out for it and post back.
 

richard plumb

Well-known Member
with all due respect, I'm honestly wondering if people blow this out of proportion

Perhaps because people are aware of the LCD response issue, they are looking for blurring?

Surely CRTs aren't immune? A CRT will take 1/50th of a second to draw each field. Thats >16ms response rate (or spot on 16ms if you use 60fps). Plus its really low res (640x288 approx?) And I'm sure there is blurring if you look for it.

Just curious really. I know I'm the same with plasma burn-in. I've written off plasma for my usage because of it, even though I'm sure its not really an issue any more.
 

RockySpieler

Novice Member
You are refering to CRT TV, CRT Monitors are where most Gamers are coming from, when they Buy LCD Panels. They are generally dissapointed.
 

richard plumb

Well-known Member
you all a bunch of PC gamers on here then?

Because surely then you'd be (relatively) disappointed with console gaming generally at the mo?
 

Member 55145

Distinguished Member
Ramspeed said:
Hi all

I am a Sony V32 owner. This excellent LCD boasts an incredibly fast 8ms panel. Yet I still get slight blurring with games (yes, I'm using good component cables, yes I'm running the games @ 480p/720p). The blurring is subtle, a slight loss of focus when panning around. It's the same on all games on all consoles.

I have noticed owners of nearly all the current LCD's admitting this problem. The JVC DS6, the Samsung, the Hitachi. Can't comment on the Panny TX500. Is there an LCD out there that can display games without any blur whatsoever? If not...why not? It's clearly not a matter of panel response time anymore. Is it an inherent problem with the technology? Is there a solution?
its a Sony
 

bbdivo

Novice Member
Well I've been a PC gamer for longer than I can remember, I have switched from CRT to LCD and havent noticed any ghosting, In fact the only ghosting I have ever seen are on older CRT PC monitors that had long persistence phosphors, but we're talking a long time ago! I am expecting my LCD tv on Thursday, maybe I'll notice something then, however AFAIK the TV I'm getting has a better response rate than both my PC LCD panels I use for gaming.
 

ricki1980

Active Member
My Hitachi 7200 has zero blur at all and the set is 16ms so something must be wrong with your Sony mate.
 

Tony B

Active Member
richard plumb said:
with all due respect, I'm honestly wondering if people blow this out of proportion

Perhaps because people are aware of the LCD response issue, they are looking for blurring?

Surely CRTs aren't immune? A CRT will take 1/50th of a second to draw each field. Thats >16ms response rate (or spot on 16ms if you use 60fps). Plus its really low res (640x288 approx?) And I'm sure there is blurring if you look for it.

Just curious really. I know I'm the same with plasma burn-in. I've written off plasma for my usage because of it, even though I'm sure its not really an issue any more.
Aha - the unmistakable sound of a nail being hit squarely on the head... :thumbsup:
 
G

gearguy

Guest
richard plumb said:
with all due respect, I'm honestly wondering if people blow this out of proportion

Perhaps because people are aware of the LCD response issue, they are looking for blurring?

Surely CRTs aren't immune? A CRT will take 1/50th of a second to draw each field. Thats >16ms response rate (or spot on 16ms if you use 60fps). Plus its really low res (640x288 approx?) And I'm sure there is blurring if you look for it.

Just curious really. I know I'm the same with plasma burn-in. I've written off plasma for my usage because of it, even though I'm sure its not really an issue any more.
That's the wrong resolution for TVs anyway assuming you're using RGB or some form of component.
When you're using composite video or s-video, you end up with a full resolution black and white image being overlayed over a low resolution colour image to create a 'detailed' effect.
Personally I don't see the problem with blurring; infact; it looks more natural, most games deliver perfect clean frames that are far enough apart for your eyes to see as non blurred, but the truth is, if games actually showed motion rather than still frames they would blur anyway; as your eyes are not fast enough to track real motion.

Just wave your hand infront of your face with nothing behind it, then switch your monitor on and wave it infront of your monitor.
As you can see; when the monitor is on you can see specific points of the motion of your hand rather than actual motion with blurring.

So it's no big deal.

As long as you can play the game without getting killed all the time; you're fine :hiya:
 

tjradiohead

Active Member
gearguy said:
As long as you can play the game without getting killed all the time; you're fine :hiya:
Hmm, well if you guys are happy with your LCD's adding blur to your image, you are very lucky, i couldnt put up with it.
 

Just Some Ugly

Active Member
Been using my "JVC LT-26DS6BJ" (Response Time: 7ms) for a few months now & have had no blurring whatsoever stunning TV

Maybe you haven't run the screen in yet?
 
S

Shin Gouki

Guest
Ramspeed said:
Hi all

I am a Sony V32 owner. This excellent LCD boasts an incredibly fast 8ms panel. Yet I still get slight blurring with games (yes, I'm using good component cables, yes I'm running the games @ 480p/720p). The blurring is subtle, a slight loss of focus when panning around. It's the same on all games on all consoles.

I have noticed owners of nearly all the current LCD's admitting this problem. The JVC DS6, the Samsung, the Hitachi. Can't comment on the Panny TX500. Is there an LCD out there that can display games without any blur whatsoever? If not...why not? It's clearly not a matter of panel response time anymore. Is it an inherent problem with the technology? Is there a solution?
All XboX 360 games wil use motion blur so you can add that on top of the motion blur you get from the LCD panel too. :rolleyes:

I'm not happy about this at all and have done no end of moaning about it.

Even if we had 100% motion blur free LCD's you are still going to get the motion blur that the developers add to their games. :suicide:
 

Andy3

Banned
I don't get this obsession with 'LCD motion blur'. CRT's blur motion because of the persistence of their phosphors; TV productions before about 1990 suffered from terrible trailing on highlights(watch the two Ronnies!); stop-motion model cinematography (a la Ray Harryhausen) looked odd because there wasn't any motion blur...
I've been playing XBOX Doom3 on our JVC DS6 for a few months now and I can spot blur if I stare intently at the screen and do a quick turn, but then I reckon I could do the same on a CRT...and CRT's flicker.
It really isn't a problem! Just make sure the manufacturer's magic features (video noise reduction = blursville) are turned down from the factory settings and you'll be fine :hiya:
 

tjradiohead

Active Member
Shin Gouki said:
All XboX 360 games wil use motion blur so you can add that on top of the motion blur you get from the LCD panle too. :rolleyes:

I'm not happy about this at all and have done no end of moaning about it.

Even if we had 100% motion blur free LCD's you are still going to get the motion blur that the devlopers add to their games. :suicide:
Where did you read this?

doesnt sound true to me :rolleyes:
 

AgentCool

Novice Member
I agree that it's an over-hyped issue. I've owned several CRTs and have noticed motion blurring on all of them if I look really carefully. This is particularly noticable with bright whites moving across the screen. Having owned a pretty cheap LCD monitor for 4 years I can't say it's any worse than a CRT.

Don't spend all of your life nitpicking and just enjoy playing the games/watching the TV! :lesson: :thumbsup:
 
J

JorgeP

Guest
Ramspeed said:
Hi all

I am a Sony V32 owner. This excellent LCD boasts an incredibly fast 8ms panel. Yet I still get slight blurring with games (yes, I'm using good component cables, yes I'm running the games @ 480p/720p). The blurring is subtle, a slight loss of focus when panning around. It's the same on all games on all consoles.

I have noticed owners of nearly all the current LCD's admitting this problem. The JVC DS6, the Samsung, the Hitachi. Can't comment on the Panny TX500. Is there an LCD out there that can display games without any blur whatsoever? If not...why not? It's clearly not a matter of panel response time anymore. Is it an inherent problem with the technology? Is there a solution?

I tried Samsung LE-26R51BH some weeks ago and it's the same story. That panel claims 8 ms but I found the blurring detracted enormously from the visual experience in games such as Half Life 2 and San Andreas (both through VGA)

However I feel there is another and more serious problem regarding LCDs and gaming and that is lag, which as far as I know is not directly related to response time or ghosting, being a different issue altogether. What I mean by lag is the time it takes for the whole video signal to be rendered in the screen, in practical terms, it is the interval from the moment you press the trigger in Halo to the moment where Master Chief fires his weapon (hence its critical importance for gamers).

Most flat panel sets, particulary LCDs, suffer from this shortcoming and it is easily noticeable by feeding a given video source to both the panel under study and any conventional CRT display (I guess CRT's lag can be taken to be negligible). I was hopeful about the Samsung though, being the screen chosen by Microsoft to show off the 360 and all, so I did a test of sorts with the LE-26R51BH model. Everyone I showed both the LCD and CRT displaying the same PC desktop noticed how the opening and closing of folders happened slightly before on the CRT than in the Samsung LCD.

I will not sacrifice playability for HD, ghosting or no ghosting, rather I will wait until some lcd COMPLETELY sorts this out, a new technology comes, or someone bothers bringing HD capable CRTs to Europe (the JVCs are near impossible to find under 36'' and the Slimfits have problems of their own, plus they can't do HD in 60 Hz)

HD gaming is not looking well for us europeans :mad:
 

richard plumb

Well-known Member
frankly I'm bemused by the insistence on CRT for HD content. In the US its partially understandable as they still have many CRTs to choose from

What is the assumption that they are better? Yes they have better blacks, but lag is a function of the deinterlacing/scaling, and even CRTs will have to do that to some extent. Then add in geometry issues, flickering, lack of ability to display 720p natively (most CRTs cannot resolve the full 720 lines) and I see not reason for people to crow about CRT while bemoaning LCD. (not singling you out here Jorge, but I've seen it a lot on US forums)

Simple point is all displays have their pros and cons.
 

Jakus

Active Member
Not sure People know what they are talking about !!
Image smear has been leveled against LCD TV's from the early days and If something does not look right its always called slow pixel response !

Have any of the people with the problem seen the same effect when viewing something like a superfast explosion or movement when viewing a quality High definition Source.....all of which is moving faster than You can pan around with your Mouse in a game ?

Go figure

;)
 

Member 55145

Distinguished Member
ha ha maybe the motion blur people have been seeing (and complaining about)in xbox 360 games is actually from the screens and not effects built into the game! :rotfl:
 
X

xprezz

Guest
JorgeP said:
HD gaming is not looking well for us europeans :mad:
Its looking great for most of us with high quality low price alternatives like sonys new S and V series. I have demoed loads of LCD's and played countless xbox games on a samsung 26" LCD and never had a problem.

Feel free to find as many problems with any given diplay technology, while you do that I am going to be playing PD0 and PGR3 on my Xbox360 hooked to a shiny new Sony V40 LCD.. And enjoying it!
 
M

Madshark

Guest
Played Far Cry Instincts again last night on my TX32LXD500 and didn't notice this motion blur thing ???
 
S

Shin Gouki

Guest
JagoPlasma said:
ha ha maybe the motion blur people have been seeing (and complaining about)in xbox 360 games is actually from the screens and not effects built into the game! :rotfl:

No you are wrong!

All developers are banging on about using motion blur because it is supposed to mask frame rate issues and jaggies.

You have NOT been keeping up with whats going on with the XboX 360 and it's games if you dont know that they are all using motion blur. Every single developer is going on about it like its the next coming of jesus ***. Where have you been hiding for god sake? :p

Motion blur is used heavily in PGR3. Just download the latest video of the game and see for yourself.

Motion Blur is the new thing. :suicide:

I think it's a complete load of crap tbh.

We now have almost blur free LCD's then the developers go and add it to their games, ***. :rolleyes: Now instead of having crytal clear HD displays we are going to have misty blurry displays. Can you ****ing believe it? :thumbsdow

Bizzare claim that they dont need to run PGR3 at 60fps because of motion blur. No wtf happend to this almighty console that could run at 60 fps? Also, the talk of "jaggies being a thing of the past" is BS too because someone asked Rare if their lasted demo of PD0 was using AA and they said "NO". They then asked why they wer'nt using it because all games were supposed to be "jaggie free" and they said that they did'nt need to use it because the "Motion Blur effect" masked the jaggies. :rolleyes:

So far everythign points to the fact that they are using motin blur because the XboX360 isn't as powerful as they said it was. If it was then why do we need motion blur to mask frame rate issues and jaggies? There should'nt be any frame rate issue and the mahcine should be powerful enough to handle AA.

Motion blur is just a cop out and it looks *****. I would rather have a lower frame rate and jaggies, over a blurred image. I'm not buying a crstal clear HD LCD to have a nasty blurred CRT like image. ***. :rolleyes:
 
S

Shin Gouki

Guest
tjradiohead said:
Where did you read this?

doesnt sound true to me :rolleyes:
It's true. It's a well known fact that developers are using motion blur to mask frame rate and jaggies issues.

No end of developers have adimitted to using it.

Bizzare and Rare have said they are using it so they don't have to use AA to remove jaggies, and because they can make the gap from 30 to 60 fps less noticable with "Motion Blur".

So you either have a rubbish frame rate and jaggies, or you have a blurred picture with better frame rate and less visible jaggies. :thumbsdow
 

richard plumb

Well-known Member
I think people need to calm down.

the motion blur in PGR3 looks great from the videos I've seen. No, its no excuse not to try for 60fps but it does add to the quality of the image.

Don't forget that the TV and movies you watch also has motion blur, as the camera shutter is open for a fixed amount of time and objects can move in that time. Thats why stop motion animation can look 'odd'.
 

tjradiohead

Active Member
Shin Gouki said:
It's true. It's a well known fact that developers are using motion blur to mask frame rate and jaggies issues.

No end of developers have adimitted to using it.

Bizzare and Rare have said they are using it so they don't have to use AA to remove jaggies, and because they can make the gap from 30 to 60 fps less noticable with "Motion Blur".

So you either have a rubbish frame rate and jaggies, or you have a blurred picture with better frame rate and less visible jaggies. :thumbsdow
Do you have any links to this information?
 
S

Shin Gouki

Guest
richard plumb said:
I think people need to calm down.

the motion blur in PGR3 looks great from the videos I've seen. No, its no excuse not to try for 60fps but it does add to the quality of the image.

Don't forget that the TV and movies you watch also has motion blur, as the camera shutter is open for a fixed amount of time and objects can move in that time. Thats why stop motion animation can look 'odd'.
I dont like it in movies either. My eyes just cant keep up with the picture and i'm always strainning to keep up with the picture. I notice this when corners are taken in PGR3 too. It's difficult for me to focus on the corners because the motion blur effect makes my eyes go out of focus. It's too visible on video games and i think games have been fine without it up until now.
 

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