More Audyssey vs Manual confusion (Denon AVR-3700H). Mainly w/r to sub+main settings in stereo.

chilly81

Novice Member
After much reading and searching I'm sadly still quite confused how Audyssey and Manual settings interact on Denon AVR-3700H at least (MultiEQXT32).

If I run the audyssey setup, it will modify: Speaker sizes, distances, EQ (which I can't do manually), crossovers and levels. It does not seem to change the LFE lowpass or LFE/LFE+MAIN setting.

First Point of Confusion:
If I then go into manual and change any of that. Do I then have to switch between Audyssey or Manal settings somehow - or have I modified the 'only' settings by changing things in Manual? Then maybe I can 'Restore' in Audyssey to reset them maybe? But not switch back and forth?

Second Point of Confusion:
It keeps setting my mains to full range. (Tannoy MX4). With my 'bass' settings (which it did NOT change) to LFE (vs. LFE+main), this does not pass any bass to my sub in stereo. I do understand why this is (I think). But if I change it to LFE+Mains, this would theoretically result in a low-mid boom from the sub and mains both being active in the 40-80Hz range. So I think I'd have to change them to small with a 60Hz xover, then leave it as LFE with a 60Hz low pass for LFE. But then for movies with a discrete LFE channel intended for 80Hz - would it be losing detail?

Last point of confusion (for now at least):
Wouldn't I be mucking up the Audyssey results completely anyway by changing the speaker config and crossovers? Isn't it accounting for bass 'overlap' with LFE+main, or is it only concerned with discrete multichannel configurations, and it leaves stereo sub tweaking to me?
 

gibbsy

Moderator
Audyssey will make modifications to how the audio sounds in your room. It's pretty essential that you follow the instructions on mic placement and adjust your speakers to suit. Altering speakers sizes and crossovers post calibration does not interfere with the room correction.

In a 5.1 system (or above) then all the speakers should be set to small. Crossovers should be set to 80hz if Audyssey has confirmed them as being below 80hz. It's fine to lift the crossover to 80hz if found to be below but should not be dropped to 80hz if Audyssey has set them higher. Any frequency below 80hz will be sent to the sub.

LFE+Main should not be used as this can cause boomy bass and the sub should be set to it's maximum crossover. LPF for LFE should be left at it's default setting of 120hz on the Denon.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
Bass management isn't technical anything to do with Audyssey and Audyssey themselves recommend that you manual configure the speaker sizes and crossover configurations after running the calibration. They suggest you set the speakers as being SMALL with a crossover no lower than 80Hz regardless of the physical size of your speakers.

Before running the calibration, you'd need to set the settings on the sub itself as follows:

  • Set the volume to about 10 o'clock and no higher than midway
  • Set the frequency to its highest setting or a dedicated LFE option if there is one
  • Set phase to 0°


Now run the Audyssey calibration.

Post calibration, manually configure the speaker sizes and crossover filters onboard the AV receiver. You have to do this after the calibration because each calibration will erase any bass management configurations set previously.

The LPF of LFE setting onboard the AV receiver should tecnically alwats be left set to its default 120Hz. THis is the ceiling used for the LFE channel when mixing Dolby encoded soundtracks. Setting lower than 120Hz can effect the roll off associated with the audio channel. THis filter only applies to the LFE channel and not the frequencies being redirected away from your passive speakers by the AV receiver's crossover filters.


You'd be advised not to set the sub to the LFE + MAIN option and leave it set to just LFE. THe former duplicated the same frequencies via both the passive speakers and the sub and this often gives rise to bass boom.


All-in-all, Audyssey room EQ correction isn't effected by the bass management and Audyssey aren't really responsible for it. THe bass managent remains active even if you turn Audyssey off. THe on;y setting that would disengage it is if you use the AV receiver's PURE DIRECT mode. THis mode bypasses and negates the speaker size and associated crossover configurations and all speakers will be regarded as LAGE/FULL RANGE in this mode.
 

chilly81

Novice Member
Bass management isn't technical anything to do with Audyssey and Audyssey themselves recommend that you manual configure the speaker sizes and crossover configurations after running the calibration. They suggest you set the speakers as being SMALL with a crossover no lower than 80Hz regardless of the physical size of your speakers.

Before running the calibration, you'd need to set the settings on the sub itself as follows:

  • Set the volume to about 10 o'clock and no higher than midway
  • Set the frequency to its highest setting or a dedicated LFE option if there is one
  • Set phase to 0°


Now run the Audyssey calibration.

Post calibration, manually configure the speaker sizes and crossover filters onboard the AV receiver. You have to do this after the calibration because each calibration will erase any bass management configurations set previously.

The LPF of LFE setting onboard the AV receiver should tecnically alwats be left set to its default 120Hz. THis is the ceiling used for the LFE channel when mixing Dolby encoded soundtracks. Setting lower than 120Hz can effect the roll off associated with the audio channel. THis filter only applies to the LFE channel and not the frequencies being redirected away from your passive speakers by the AV receiver's crossover filters.


You'd be advised not to set the sub to the LFE + MAIN option and leave it set to just LFE. THe former duplicated the same frequencies via both the passive speakers and the sub and this often gives rise to bass boom.


All-in-all, Audyssey room EQ correction isn't effected by the bass management and Audyssey aren't really responsible for it. THe bass managent remains active even if you turn Audyssey off. THe on;y setting that would disengage it is if you use the AV receiver's PURE DIRECT mode. THis mode bypasses and negates the speaker size and associated crossover configurations and all speakers will be regarded as LAGE/FULL RANGE in this mode.

I think this sorts some of it out - especially the LFE LPF onmly affecting the LFE channel. So if I were to set a given channel manually ([email protected]), it would contribute the sub 60Hz signal to the sub. That would even ben in the X.1 case where an LFE might contain 80Hz signal... it would be the combined signal from LFE combined with whatever below 60Hz signal my Fronts would have otherwise seen? That actually makes more sense... so the per-speaker crossovers are more like splitters - it's either going to the small/speaker or going to the sub based on what you set for the frequency?
This would make me feel better about the Stereo configuration - trying to manually offload the sub at an arbitry (manual) crossover frequency... without worrying it would lose true LFE signal from a multichannel codec.
It is quite confusing - maybe because all the levels and crossovers etc are within the Audyssey menu on the Denon. But Audyssey itself is simply the per-channel EQ? So all the other calibration stuff (levels, distance, phase, crossover) are more just amp configuration variables, rather than actually part of Audyssey - but Denon lumps them into that menu?

It's funny you mention 10oclock on the sub. My HSU VTF-2 MK3 is barely off-idle at essentially 3:00 for all these calibrations. And surely it's not a beast of a sub by today's standards. But it sounds fine, so I'm not too worried about that part.
 

DavidT

Well-known Member
When you rerun Auddessey after setting up your sub as recommended let us see you Audessey settings screens then our very knowledgeable members can advise better on any adjustments.

If Audessey sets the sub gain to +12db or -12db then the sub gain is set incorrectly.
 
Last edited:
D

Deleted member 901590

Guest
And, even better, screenshots of the graphs from the app.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
I think this sorts some of it out - especially the LFE LPF onmly affecting the LFE channel. So if I were to set a given channel manually ([email protected]), it would contribute the sub 60Hz signal to the sub. That would even ben in the X.1 case where an LFE might contain 80Hz signal... it would be the combined signal from LFE combined with whatever below 60Hz signal my Fronts would have otherwise seen? That actually makes more sense... so the per-speaker crossovers are more like splitters - it's either going to the small/speaker or going to the sub based on what you set for the frequency?
This would make me feel better about the Stereo configuration - trying to manually offload the sub at an arbitry (manual) crossover frequency... without worrying it would lose true LFE signal from a multichannel codec.
It is quite confusing - maybe because all the levels and crossovers etc are within the Audyssey menu on the Denon. But Audyssey itself is simply the per-channel EQ? So all the other calibration stuff (levels, distance, phase, crossover) are more just amp configuration variables, rather than actually part of Audyssey - but Denon lumps them into that menu?

It's funny you mention 10oclock on the sub. My HSU VTF-2 MK3 is barely off-idle at essentially 3:00 for all these calibrations. And surely it's not a beast of a sub by today's standards. But it sounds fine, so I'm not too worried about that part.


The crossover filters do not effect the discrete LFE channel and the LFE low pass filter (LPF of LFE) doesn't effect the frequencies associated with the crossover filters. They are 2 seperate entities. Crossover filters ion the AV receiver only effect the speakers set as SMALL.Any speaker set as LARGE would be regarded as FULL RANGE and not subject to the crossover filters. THe crossover filters redirect frequenciesat and below those settings away from the passove speakers set as SMALL out to the sub along with any discrete LFE channel.

The crossovers are not within the AUDYSSEY menu, they are listed within the speaker configurations on the AV receiver.

The sub level (Volume) on the sub itself utimately depends upon the room size. You'd ordinarilly find that setting it to 10 o'clock will result in you getting a level setting that is within the acceptable range in most average UK rooms. Larger rooms may however require you set this higher and smaller rooms may requirethat you set it lower?
 

chilly81

Novice Member
The crossover filters do not effect the discrete LFE channel and the LFE low pass filter (LPF of LFE) doesn't effect the frequencies associated with the crossover filters. They are 2 seperate entities. Crossover filters ion the AV receiver only effect the speakers set as SMALL.Any speaker set as LARGE would be regarded as FULL RANGE and not subject to the crossover filters. THe crossover filters redirect frequenciesat and below those settings away from the passove speakers set as SMALL out to the sub along with any discrete LFE channel.

The crossovers are not within the AUDYSSEY menu, they are listed within the speaker configurations on the AV receiver.

The sub level (Volume) on the sub itself utimately depends upon the room size. You'd ordinarilly find that setting it to 10 o'clock will result in you getting a level setting that is within the acceptable range in most average UK rooms. Larger rooms may however require you set this higher and smaller rooms may requirethat you set it lower?

I think it all makes sense now. On mine there is a menu under the Audyssey setup: Speakers->Audyssey Setup->Check Results... where it shows all the distances, sizes, crossovers and even the Equalizer curves it came up with.
In my case the Fronts are full range, and all the levels are in the 0 to -6 range (I think you're right it's just a very small poor acoustics room, thus the low sub volume knob setting). And I have my sub's crossover defeat on, so just relying on the AVR.
So it appears that this is the starting point once you run the Audyssey setup process. THEN, when I go into Speakers->Manual Setup and change something (like fronts to small with a 60Hz crossover), then those are the settings that are actually in use. And you don't have a setting to switch back and forth between manual and Audyssey... but you CAN however, restore those settings the Audyssey setup originally determined from within that menu ('Restore...'). I tested this and it wipes out your manual changes and brings it back to what Audyssey initially solved for.
I guess this all makes sense now although it was a bit confusing to get my head around. I don't really need to be able to just switch back and forth, so that's fine, I was mostly just frustrated I didn't understand exactly what it was doing, but I think I do now.

The only thing bugging me now is that there's a setting "Audio-Graphic EQ" which the manual implies that you can use when Audyssey EQ is disabled. You can even use the Audyssey solved EQ curves as starting points and adjust them. But sadly no matter what I do, mine always says "not available in this mode". No combination of Audyssey on/off, Pure, Direct, DSPs... anything... seems to make it a useable option for me. I haven't tried an analog input - maybe that's it... idk. Might be a nice option if I ever wanted to play with REW.
 

The latest video from AVForums

Panasonic LZ2000, LZ1500 & LZ980 Hands-on Launch Event | No QD-OLED for 2022, new 77-inch for LZ2000
Subscribe to our YouTube channel
Support AVForums with Patreon

Top Bottom