Mission M5AS upgrade advice

[Turtles]

For some time I've been thinking about upgrading from my old Mission M5AS sub. My current kit is:

Arcam AVR350
Sky HD
Arcam DV79
B & W XT4
B & W XTC
B & W M1's for back surrounds

and of course my aging Mission M5AS...

My dealer has recommended the B & W PV1 but I'm unsure if this will give me the big bass that I have from my Mission sub (plan to audition but wanted to get some feedback if you'd help!).

I use the Mission for both music and obviously films but am wondering if this is now the weak link in my kit? I am looking for a nice big sub and after the coffee table M5AS I really don't mind if it looks like a polished coffin in the corner .

As the 'bottom end' is an important part of my system any thoughts would be welcomed .

 

[Crustyloafer]

If you are happy with a big box then I would try to get hold of a REL Stadium 3, they are being discontinued and there should be some good ex-demo deals going on them.

This is a subwoofer that punches well above what it's on paper specification would lead you too believe. First class sound quality and outstanding build quality and craftmanship.

Here is a link to a few user reviews.

http://www.audioreview.com/cat/speakers/subwoofers/rel-acoustics/PRD_124686_2741crx.aspx

 

[Turtles]

Thanks Crusty, always heard good things from REL so will add this to my shortlist.

Does anyone now how the Stadium III compares to SVS models? I know very little about this brand (never seen or heard of them before this forum). Are there UK dealers or order direct?

They appear to be well thought of on here and don't seem 'shy' so I'm interested! If anyone can suggest a model that might blend into my system I'd appreciate the time taken.

 

[HiFiRuss71]

Can't comment on the REL as it and the Stentor are the only two STs I haven't heard. Independent online reviews have shown it only really to lack in outright volume potential, presumably because it sports a 10" driver.

SVS aren't available through high street dealer networks which explains why most people haven't heard of them. They sell online and have garned a loyal following through word of mouth recommendation and stellar reviews when they get them. The only place to demo one is Kent Home Cinema, who's online presence is as AV Sales. You'll also find them in the Powerbuy at the top of this forum, with an extra discount for forum members.

For my part, I really do think you should make the effort to hear the SVS PB-12/Plus and if you don't mind a coffin in the room, the leviathon PB-12/Plus 2. Some of the worlds most respected 'bass heads' and reviewers rate them extremely highly, regardless of price, and there is little capable of matching them for sheer depth and volume, with low distortion at anything like the price.

Don't worry too much about system blending. At this price the subs on offer will work with it. A bit more info about you room (dimensions and potential positions for the sub) would help. Visually none of the suggestions, thus far, will really match. They won't exactly refect the elegance of the XTs like the PV-1. Unlike the PV-1 they will produce really deep bass though.

Russell

 

[Crustyloafer]

Can't comment on the REL as it and the Stentor are the only two STs I haven't heard.

I would love to hear your thoughts and opinions on the REL Studio 3 which I have not heard myself, but clearly you have. Was it any good or was it just overpriced, pretentious poppycock?

 

[HiFiRuss71]

I would love to hear your thoughts and opinions on the REL Studio 3 which I have not heard myself, but clearly you have. Was it any good or was it just overpriced, pretentious poppycock?

Nope. Quite right, I haven't heard the Studio 3. I'd forgotten about that one. When I do I'll let you know.

Can't see the relevance here though. It would appear to be outside of the OPs budget, so is hardly worthy of mention.

I have actually heard a Stadium, but wouldn't pass comment as it was far to short a demo in totally unfamiliar surroundings.

The same can't be said of the SVSs, which I have heard a few of in a variety surroundings, some, increasingly familiar. They're worth the trek to hear you know.

Russell

 

[Crustyloafer]

Can't see the relevance here though. It would appear to be outside of the OPs budget, so is hardly worthy of mention.

Which budget is that? There hasn't been one mentioned by the OP.

 

[HiFiRuss71]

Somewhere about the price of a PV-1 (£950) which the OP mentioned. From there to a Studio (£4.5k) would appear to be a bit of a leap.

The OP has asked for alternatives and comments. I've done that. I know you think I have some personal axe to grind against REL, but I don't. I haven't commented on the quality of the bass on offer from the Stadium for the reasons stated.

I also have no vested interest in either of the manufacturers on offer, be it personal or professional.

However it is limited in maximum volume and that is backed up by independent objective tests, not some list of users who's reviews are in no way subjectively biased by the fact they've bought one. Such performance parametres may be factors for the OP, it may not, that's for him to decide. If he's smart, he'll take a hard look at both suggestions and make up his own mind.

Russell

 

[Crustyloafer]

Somewhere about the price of a PV-1 (£950) which the OP mentioned. From there to a Studio (£4.5k) would appear to be a bit of a leap.

I know, I wasn't having a go at you. I was just pointing out that there actually hadn't been any budget mentioned. I think it is possibly a little bit rude assuming that something is above someone's budget. I know your comments would have never been meant that way however.

I know you think I have some personal axe to grind against REL, but I don't.

Not at all, I like many other contributors on here value your knowledge and experienced opinion. I like REL (well the ST series anyway) and you like BK, each to their own.

 

[AngelEyes]

I think Russell still has his 'shields up' from last week

I am still hoping to get round to seriously demoing a Rel at some point, so far i have not heard one for any length of time or particularly well set up

The general differences I can comment on are the features: SVS has rudimentary EQ controls on the SB & PB range (with Veneer finishes) to help tame pesky room modes. Rels have more comprehensive connection options with, IIRC confused: ) simultaneous High & Low Level Connection and seperate crossovers for High and Low level. Of course the usefulness of these will depend on how you connect your sub when listening to music.

If you connect via low level (RCA) then it won't apply.

I have however heard most of the SVS range and they are very impressive.

Adam

 

[Dynaudio Desire]

No you lot have got it all wrong! You want THIS aiwa subwoofer blatingly!

I mean come on look at it doing that crazy excursion!!! Infact I'm thinking of scrapping my Monolith and future plans of an SVS PC13 for this aiwa BEAST!

On a more serious note. Is the OP willing to spend £2000+ on a subwoofer? If not then he should give SVS a go, certainley get a good run for his money I would imagine!

 

[Turtles]

Thanks for the feedback all, to confirm the budget would be around 1000 but that could be encouraged a little higher if I thought the product was worth it.

Looking around for the REL Stadium 3's - there doesn’t appear to be any under 1500 so maybe a little too expensive.

The SVS products I took some time reading about today and the PB12-Plus looks great (OK the PB12-Plus/2 looks even better but it may be a little too much.........did I say that????). But I must say the SVS ethos is appealing and seems to fit my needs perfectly.

The only other thought is do you think it would be worth waiting a little longer until the new Ultra range is released? I am now very tempted to put off the house improvements till winter and get my credit card out!

Cheers for the time taken all - I am learning a lot here!

 

[AngelEyes]

I think there comes a point where your room restricts what you can get from the sub so it would be good to know your room dimensions.

I originally toyed with getting an SVS PB12 Ultra 2 for my room but after discussing it with Ron & Ed at SVS (yes they are very friendly and helpful chappies), they talked me down to 'only' the Ultra. I probably would have been fine with the Plus but I just didn't want that 'what if factor?'.

Another consideration, if deciding between the Plus variants is that the single driver does have the option to tune lower, although it may not be the best tuning point for your room. My own Ultra is tuned to 16hz rather than 12hz because it gives a flatter in room response.

I recenty had a discussion with Ron & Ed about the Old & New Ultras and I think if your room requires it, you can wait and afford the extra... it should be well worth it. Also you can be sure it will get independantly tested pretty promptly which should help sway you one way or the other.

Adam

 

[HiFiRuss71]

(OK the PB12-Plus/2 looks even better but it may be a little too much.........did I say that????).

Girl!

I am now very tempted to put off the house improvements till winter and get my credit card out!

That's the spirit.

Russell

 

[Turtles]

OK I must admit that it seems that SVS now have the winning vote - it is a decision now between the PB12 Plus and the PB12 Plus/2...

Now while I'm in no doubt which one I (really) want, I realise that I do need some help - my room is about 10 x 17 but has been knocked through to the next room (about the same size) - I have everything set up for one room but there is obviously a fair amount of sound leakage....

Soooo..........can I justify the Plus/2's??

 

[Turtles]

Hello, This is Mrs Turtles here ............

Please, please, please don't let him do it???
I know I'm a girl (and therefore no fun at all) but we have no carpets or curtains and think of the pets???

Don't know why I'm expecting any help from you lot but please, pretty please?

 

[Turtles]

Arh....we have some carpets, and its summer!

 

[HiFiRuss71]

OK I must admit that it seems that SVS now have the winning vote - it is a decision now between the PB12 Plus and the PB12 Plus/2...

Now while I'm in no doubt which one I (really) want, I realise that I do need some help - my room is about 10 x 17 but has been knocked through to the next room (about the same size) - I have everything set up for one room but there is obviously a fair amount of sound leakage....

Soooo..........can I justify the Plus/2's??

Unless I'm way out, that's about the size of Angel Eyes room and his PB-12/Ultra (just a whisker ahead of the current PB-12/Plus according to SVS) fills it with ease in 16Hz tune and he knows no fear of the volume control.

Is there actually a Mrs. Turtles? How can we be sure who we're talking to from now on? Or was it your alter ego, typing out it's tortured battle of responsibility from within your mind? I think we should be told.

Curtains and carpet have no effect on bass and are therefore uneccassary, although you may wish to consider your midrange and treble quality. Cheap ones will suffice.

Pets can be employed as corner bass traps and therefore should be applauded....although don't tell the PSPCA about the staples required to employ them in the ceilings corners.

Girls are fun. It's wives that aren't.

Russell

 

[Turtles]

I promise that there will be no more mention of soft furnishings!! She insisted on making a plea.

So to conclude a discounted PB12-Plus/2 (as mentioned at the top of the page) would be ideal???

 

[HiFiRuss71]

The only way to find out is to get thee unto Kent Home Cinema for a demo. The day I was there, the plus2 wasn't running, it was being used as seating.

For two.

It won't tell you exactly how it will perform in your room, but IIRC the big Runco/Classe/M&K room is similar size and you can see whether you fance kill or overkill in that sort of cubic volume.

Russell

 

[AngelEyes]

Unless I'm way out, that's about the size of Angel Eyes room and his PB-12/Ultra (just a whisker ahead of the current PB-12/Plus according to SVS) fills it with ease in 16Hz tune and he knows no fear of the volume control.

OK, I finally had enough of you constantly blaspheming at the miniscule improvement my Ultra has over the latest plus driver!

I got a monk on last week and emailed Ron & Ed to see if my sexy Ultra was really just a Plus now...

RE: 12.3 vs Ultra Drivers?
Adam,

Sorry for the late reply, I’ve been traveling heavily and nearly missed this note!

“Pretty much the same” is a tough thing to comment on, but I can say this having used both extensively. I’ll CC Ed Mullen here who I’m certain has his own views to add here.

From my perspective, the Ultra is (and even while we were selling them side by side here in the US with the Plus subs) something special you are rightly proud to own. It’s more durable, has a more refined sound to most ears, and is virtually immune to thermal loading which can cause the best woofers to falter when really being worked hard.

We sold them heavily right up to the day we exhausted stock in preparation for the Ultra-13 rollout, hopefully in July. There’s no question that the Plus represents a better “value” (bang for the buck if you will) but the various Ultra subs of their day were still the last word in “nth degree” performance.

We did hope that the TV-12 Ultra as it was called would be compatible with its replacement some day but the “old” 12” Ultra proved its stuff and literally forced us to that 13” design in order to have the leap in performance we wanted any new version to demonstrate.

I wouldn’t rule out amp upgrade possibilities down the road, it could happen, even if there are no near term plans for this now, it’s unlikely there will be a 12” woofer that we’ll offer which will do anything to upgrade your performance past the high standard you already have. I will say that the new Powered Cylinder and Powered Boxes with the Ultra-13 woofer might well cause you to consider upgrading, but honestly, your sub is and will remain a “classic” subwoofer if there ever was one. Time moves on, and our subs’ performance with that march.

We are indeed working to make the PC-Ultra an export product that we can sell through overseas dealers like Kent Home Cinema. While finish options haven’t been ruled out they are unlikely in the near-mid term. You’ll have to go with a PB13-Ultra if you want to get oak and move up in performance. As an avid audio enthusiast I simply loath the idea of “planned obsolescence” myself. Your PB12-Ultra can and always will demonstrate you bough wisely and frankly you might find you have little need or desire to ever upgrade it at all.

If you do, the new PC-Ultra and PB13-Ultra subs are going to be the way. It’s simply hard to upgrade a sub that was so capable as yours (and I promise it’ll be a while before anyone that “only” bought one of our Plus subs probably isn’t just a bit envious ;^)

Best regards,

Ron Stimpson
SVS

...and

Hi Adam:

The TV12 woofer is an underhung design, which means the voice coil is completely inside the magnetic gap at rest. This design contributes to a more linear motor force over the excursion range of the woofer as compared to an overhung design like the 12.3 Plus woofer.

The TV12 also has higher thermal power handling capability, and as such exhibits superior management of heavy/sustained power loads with less potential for power compression (i.e., a reduction in output due to voice coil overheating).

The TV12 also has about 2-3 mm more one-way excursion than the 12.3 woofer, so it will be slightly less prone to bottoming under demanding passages at very high volumes.

This all translates into lower distortion and better behavior under extreme conditions, and about 25% more max output capability. While sound quality is certainly subjective, almost all our customers agree the TV12 has a unique sound quality superior to other woofers they have heard. These differences are subtle, but audible to most discriminating listeners.

The TV12 woofer is very expensive to build and the customer pays a premium for this nth degree of performance improvement. We liken the differences between the 12.3 Plus woofer and the TV12 Ultra woofer to a regular 'Vette and the Z06 'Vette. Both are outstanding performers (and performance values) but the TV12 takes it to another level, albeit for a premium in price.

While it was true the 12.3 woofer was able to generate similar (not equal) output levels at the same total harmonic distortion limit, this test does not completely reflect the differences between these two woofers. No one listening to both a PB12-Plus and a PB12-Ultra would confuse the two at high playback levels for the reasons cited above.

Ed Mullen
SV Sound, LLC

So there you have it, my gorgeous Ultra is still better than those puny plus drivers Muahahahahahaaaaa!

Adam

PS. I may go too far here for some but I personally thought my Ultra sounded better than the Plus 2 (with the earlier drivers) although this was listening in too different rooms

...and sorry to OP but I needed to get that off my chest damn Russell *mumble grumble*

 

[Turtles]

heya all, just wanted to say thank you for your help over the last few posts....over the last week and a couple of beers tonight I have considered my poisition and................................................................................................................................................................ I have just put in an order for an PB12-Plus/2 Active Subwoofer!

The missus has her bottom lip sticking out but I have a HUGE grin - Cheers all!

Fingers crossed Monday or Tuesday!