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Missing Powers?

Discussion in 'Movie Forum' started by BadAss, Jan 8, 2003.

  1. BadAss

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    Now every one has picked AOTC too the bone what about the beloved FOTR?

    When the fellowship is confronted by orcs in the mines of Moria, why didnt Ganalf the Great use his massive powers to defeat the cave troll? The reason is, if not for the vest of mythrill Frodo would of been DEAD!
    I only ask this question because later on also spanning onto TTT Gandalf the Great takes on the mighty Belrog, and wins, if not only to save his own skin.

    So come on Gandalf what gives?
     
  2. GreyTruth

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    I have wondered that as well!!? But the cave troll bit was like that in the book!
     
  3. Lex

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    Tolkien always seemed a little vague about exactly what the wizards could and couldn't do :confused:
     
  4. pointon

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    If the wizard sorted out every problem that came along it'd be bloody boring and about two hours shorter.
     
  5. Steve T

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    This is why Gandalf always has to leave every couple of chapters.

    There is always,some urgent task for him to perform elsewhere...

    As Pointon says, it would bit a bit dull if Gandalf strolled along kicking everyones ass.
     
  6. NicolasB

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    There are some spoilers in what follows.

    If you read the book carefully you'll see that Gandalf's powers are quite limited. For example, while they're floundering in the snow on Mount Caradhras, Legolas suggests that Gandalf could walk in front of them with a flame and melt a way through the snow. Gandalf makes a rather sarcastic reply about maybe elves could run across the snow to warmer countries and bring back the sun with them, but the gist of what he goes on to say is that to maintain a steady flame he needs something to work with - he can't burn snow. Most of the magic Gandalf does seems to come down to short-term pyrotechnics, although there is a bit about casting a shutting spell on a door in Moria, and in the book the white horses and riders that appear in the flood at the Ford of Bruinen are supposed to be Gandalf's contribution.

    It's important to note that Gandalf does not in any sense defeat the Balrog in a toe-to-toe struggle. The best that he can do is delay it while the others flee, and then damage the bridge across the chasm so that when the balrog steps onto the bridge its own weight causes it to shatter and the balrog to fall. What happens after that is somewhat confusing, although there is definitely a reference to falling through water, which of course puts out the balrog's fire.
     
  7. Annatar

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    I can't remember which book it was, i think The Silmarillion towards the end. Here it says that the Five Wizards were sent as messengers to persuade people to stand up to Sauron and fight him. They were forbidden to use power against power.

    This is why Gandalf didn't perform massive feats of magic, he was forbidden to do. Saruman, did use his power for evil, which is why he fell from grace.

    Out of the 5 wizards sent, only one stayed faithful to their original mission/purpose, Gandalf.
     
  8. BadAss

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    But come on whats the point? Frodo was going the way of the dodo. The whole world was riding on Frodos shoulders. Would Gandalf let Frodo die inorder to keep his concounse clear?
     
  9. James45

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    are all hobbits relatively immune to the powers of the ring? if so it doesn't matter if Frodo died... just give it to sam, merry or pipin.:D
     
  10. JonathanKnight

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    The hobbits are certainly not immune to it. Remember how hard it was for Bilbo to leave it behind in FOTR. Also Frodo will find it harder and harder as he aproaches Mount Doom.
     
  11. Annatar

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    It gets quite complicated, in the beginning there was once this nasty Angel called Morgoth, who's top man was Sauron ( another Angel ). Once Morgoth was banished to the void via the other good Angels, they ( good Angels )removed themselves from the world at the request of ERU, ( God )and decided to let them ( Men, dwarfs, etc ) govern themselves.

    Because Sauron was still down on Middle-Earth they had a loop hole ( so to speak ) which would allow them to send a troop of minor angels, the Isatri ( Wizards ) to help in the fight against Sauron, by showing them what will, can happen, and to stand up to him and fight him. They had to go though so as to not draw attention to themselves, which is why they went in the guise of old men, as they seemed harmless. Sauron was aware of them, but considered them to be a ploy of the Greater powers to set up a domain again on Middle-Earth.

    It goes on......read the book, it explains it.

    I know what you mean though, why didnt the Wizards just go and blow things up and stuff. It just wasn't Tolkiens way.
     
  12. NicolasB

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    Then how are they supposed to have been able to gang up to drive Sauron out of Dol Guldur / Mirkwood? I mean, okay, with hindsight he clearly let them do it, but even so there must have been some serious magic going on.

    In the FOTR book there's also a scene which strongly implies that Gandalf has been magically defending himself against the ringwraiths on Weathertop a few days before Aragorn and the hobits get there.
     
  13. Stimpy

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    One of the reasons he doesn't show his powers is that it would give away the location of the ring. I.e. when they are attempting to cross the Misty mountains, Gandalf mutters that they will be showing up like a glow torch if he were to light the way (in the book anyway).
    Once away from the ring he used his powers to defeat the Bolrog, to save himself (although he does pretty much die and prabably passes through the domain of the gods)
    After that he pretty much kicks ass, in Rohan and later in Gondor
     
  14. Annatar

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    Sauron aka The Necromancer had already left by the time the White Council decided to drive Sauron out of Mirkwood, feigning to be ebaten as he left. Plus the White council would not just turn up with the 3 remaining Wizards and habve an all out war, it would have been with armies and stuff.

    As for Gandalf on the top of Weathertop, this was an act of self defence, not all out over the top aggressive mode. Plus the Nazgul were once human, and not Angelic beings ie Balrog, Sauron etc.

    The point is they were forbidden to use their powers for self gain, or forcing the will of others, or to purely dominate others, as Sauron and Saruman do.

    Gandalf does use his powers for self defence with the Balrog, Nazgul etc. Along with a few other minor incidents. It must be noted though, he only uses them once HE was attacked, not him going out all guns blazing before he himself was attacked.
     
  15. Kevo

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    Also, why didn't he use that giant eagle(?) to transport Frodo to Mordor?
     
  16. Matinee

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    Because the film uses artistic license; in the book Frodo is pinned to the wall by a hurled spear

    I'm not even certain if there *was* a cave troll in the book, I'd have to check.

    The dialogue goes something like:

    *character looks out through door to tomb*
    'I saw a great many orcs and also something large, a cave troll I think'
    [big fight which drives the attackers off temporarily and Frodo is hit by spear]
    Gandalf leaves last, attempts to close door with spell, is met by a counterspell from the Balrog and says a Word of Power that brings down the ceiling and blocks pursuit.

    So it may be in the book they think there is a cave troll, but it's actually the balrog. Someone want to correct me?

    PK
     
  17. Matinee

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    Not exactly. In the book Gandalf uses his powers twice before the mines - once to light a piece of wood (at which point he makes the comment that he's written 'Gandalf is here' if anyone within a hundred miles has eyes to see through the snowstorm).

    There's also the fight with the wolves (not in the film), where he sets fire to the trees, where it's implied the wolves are from Sauron although presumably just there to cause trouble to passing travellers.

    The fight with the Balrog is there to help the others escape. Gandalf doesnt exist to fight the War of the Ring by himself, his mission is to help the other races succeed.

    PK
     
  18. higenbs1

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    How come Sauron doesn't disappear when he puts the ring on?
     
  19. James45

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    doesn't the same thing happen in the hobbit?
     
  20. Matinee

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    I dont think so, but I'd have to reread it to confirm. It's definitely in FOTR.

    I rechecked my facts against FOTR, and the events are as I mentioned. It's inconclusive whether a Cave Troll or a Balrog is seen through the open door; it's certainly an Orc that hits Frodo with a hurled spear.

    My own opinion is that a Balrog is seen through the door, but as I said, it's inconclusive.

    PK
     
  21. Matinee

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    Sauron is a special case, because in some ways the ring *is* him.

    However, there's also two other possibilities:

    1) The ring logically shouldnt work on people more powerful than it.

    2) There are some people the ring doesnt have any power over - Tom Bombadil (Tom isnt in the film, and the section with TB in the book is self contained and can easily be taken out)..

    Gandalf indicates that TB is a case of 2), but he could be obscuring the truth. It's fair to say that at least within his boundaries Tom is very powerful so you can argue either way.

    PK
     
  22. James45

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    Bilbo, the dwarfs and Gandalf are stuck in the trees overlooking the meeting of the wolves (forget their proper name) and Galdalf sets fire to some wood from the trees which in turn causes the wolves to ignite, the eagles then come down and pick them up.
     
  23. Matinee

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    Ah.. a faint bell begins to ring. I do seem to remember the wolf meeting vaguely now, but not the eagles. Another book to add to my reading ilst.

    PK
     
  24. Stimpy

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    Am just reading the book again (for about the 20th time).
    Yes before they decide to climb the mountain they are attacked by wargs. Gandalf set light to a tree and the wargs retreat.
    It is in the hobbit that they all climb trees and are rescuded by the eagles
     

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