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Mid-Budget Surround Speaker Package Dilemma

Discussion in 'Home Cinema Speakers' started by Alpolini, Mar 23, 2005.

  1. Alpolini

    Alpolini
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    I am about to purchase a Denon AVR2105 or YAMAHA DSPAX750SE. I am not sure which speakers to go for.

    The budget will be between £500-£800 and if necessery I will buy a 5.1 now for surrounds and 2 Standing Fronts when I have the money. (I have to start the cabling through the walls before I paint them)

    I have shortlisted these;

    ACOUSTIC ENERGY AEGIS EVO 5.1
    MISSION CINEMA M3i 5.1
    WHARFEDALE DIAMOND 9 HCP 5.1
    INFINITY OREUS 5.1
    MORDAUNT SHORT AVANT 5.1

    Its a fairly large room, and I am not sure if buying a compact package like the Missions and adding 2 floorstanders later will do the trick.

    On paper Wharfedale seems better in high freq capacity (very important for me) but I have not listened to any of these sets yets.

    Any ideas??

    thanks

    alp
     
  2. mhuk05

    mhuk05
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    As you say "on paper.." doesn't mean a great deal- it's the listening that counts ;)

    You can get MS906 for £299 http://www.audiovisiononline.co.uk
    MS905C £109 www.a1-sound.co.uk
    MS902 £119 www.a1-sound.co.uk
    (you can prob get the MS906 for £299 as well if you haggle).

    That leaves you £300 for your sub: BK XLS200 £279 http://www.bkelec.com/new/index.htm

    Depeds upon your taste in looks and sound. I have a similar system to above (velodyne sub) and its sounds great with music and movies.

    And welcome to the forum :)
     
  3. hornydragon

    hornydragon
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    I would add Canton CD2.22 pack (CD100 fornts,CD50 centre, CD10 rears and AS22C SUb) to that list £1050 SRP but £699 from this very forum well wroth considering, better than the Oreus (of which i am quite a fan)
     
  4. Alpolini

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    thanks, mhuk. So would you say the mordaunt is your choice???

    Hornydragon, I am a bit worried about speaker of that size. The room is fairly large, 4m by 8m. The dilemma is compact speakers may not fill the room (or can they) but on the other hand midsize one like wharfedale may look odd when I mount them on the walls. (surround and back surround). What do you think??
     
  5. mhuk05

    mhuk05
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    Yes, I have MS (as do a few others on the forum) :)

    They look great (slim design) and sound better. They work well at low volumes and when cranked up...

    Instead of 902 rears you can try 903 dipoles.

    Good luck with your hunt :)
     
  6. hornydragon

    hornydragon
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  7. Joe Fernand

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    Alpolini

    If its a 'big sound' you like in your 8m x 4m room I'd be tempted to find a 5:1 system you like in the 1.2K to 1.5k range and build towards it - blowing your budget now on an underpowered/sized system and then trying to bolster it with a pair of floor standers is not going to work.

    I'd also throw Atlantic Technology into your short list - AT provide a system builders dream in that you can mix and match across four ranges that are all voiced very similarly so you can grow your set-up as funds allow.

    See http://www.atlantictechnology.com/

    Best regards

    Joe
     
  8. Alpolini

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    Thanks Joe for the advice.

    I managed to get a demo today for some of the speakers I liked.

    Kef Q series - Wharfedale Diamond 9 - Mission m30

    My main concern was the tweeter work-upper freqs.

    Mission did beat all of them. I had to turn the treble all the way up and bass lower on the amp and mission did really fine. Also mission seems more or less the only one I can hand on the walls out of this three. (Mordaunt can be hung as well but they did not have them)

    With listening to music using the treble/bass adjustments rather than pure direct is not very favoured in these forums I guess, but thats really how I enjoy it. Unfortunately it caused another issue-power!

    The speaker can not take the power much when treble is booseted all the way but if I turn the bassdown they were allright at real loud levels. (I am hoping the fill the absence of bass with an active subwoofer - probably not the mission ones)

    So what would say about this set up - tomorrow I will be having a 7.1 demo with the receiver I am likely to get.

    Denon AVR2105, mission m30 series 4xSurrouns 1xCentre 1xSub. 2xfloorstanders.
    (denon is 7x90W and mission surround are 75W max). Do you think I should go for louder speakers??)


    I am missing out on Yamaha 750 Receiver and Mordaunt Short Speaker. Do you think I should definetely listen to those??????

    thanks all............
     
  9. Joe Fernand

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    Alpolini

    Possibly your hearing is impaired at the top end of the frequency range - turning the treble all the way up on an entry level AV Receiver is usually an 'ear bleeding' experience :)

    Did anyone in the shop you visited stay in the room with you ?

    Forget about 7:1 for now - you barely have enough budget for a decent 5:1 system in your room never mind 7:1; stick in the extra cables as you can add the additional speaker cabinets when the budget allows.

    Where you really demoing the speaker packages as a Home Cinema system without a sub woofer?

    In your room a decent sub is going to have to underpin a Centre + four Satellites.

    How is your room laid out - I'm guessing your not sitting 8m back from where the Centre and Front Left and Right will be mounted.

    I'd start with a Velodyne active sub to underpin your system - then find a Centre plus Front Left and Right channel I liked and spend what's left on surrounds; or even forgo surrounds for now.

    As your planning on upgrading when more budget allows I'd put more emphasis on the Centre Channel over the Front Left and Right - you can always re-purpose whatever you go with for Left and Right as your surrounds and put in better quality cabinets to match your Centre channel.

    I'd also have to say you do need to put more emphasis on how much an affect the AV Receiver has on the sound your system produces - remember Source > Processing > Amplification > Speaker is the best system hierarchy; a better AV Receiver can make a lower spec speaker system sound much better than an under specified AV Receiver driving higher quality loudspeakers.

    Best regards

    Joe
     
  10. Alpolini

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    You are right Joe, the guy had to close his ears when listening.

    I understand what you are saying about the budget issues but surround and centre cabling I must finish first, because of the decorating issues.

    I am off to test the missions with the denon receiver now, lets see how many windows are going to crack!!!!!!
     
  11. Joe Fernand

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    Hello Alpolini

    Maybe take some ear defenders for the shop assistant :)

    Fire in every cable you will eventually need - leave some slack in the surround cables; you want to be able to move them around a little to find out where they work best.

    Where surrounds 'look' correct is not always where they 'sound' correct.

    Have fun

    Joe

    PS Also listen to the AVR-3805 - try AVR-3805 with a lesser speaker array vs. AVR-2105 with the more up market speaker array.
     
  12. Alpolini

    Alpolini
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    Joe I finally made some decision today.

    1- Denon was not crisp enough to hurt shopassistant ears!!
    2-Infity speaker are ok
    3-Shop assistant ADMITTED that I should try the yamah since it is more bright sound.


    Luckly on my way home I spotted a shop which had almost every speaker I was interested in.

    AE are definetely out of the questions, missin are much better.
    Mordaunt Short are much crispier than mission 3 series even 5 series but they lack in bass.

    So my decision pretty much is yamaha 750 amp and mordaunt short avant System. My only worry is the lack in bass. I have not heard the mordaunt subwoofer, but maybe I should buy different brand sub.

    What would you say!?

    thanks

    Alp
     
  13. GFS AV

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    Hi Alp,

    I have the Mordaunt-Short Avant setup. Running these with the Yamaha 640SE. I think these are perfectly matched. The Yam 750 should be better too.

    Regarding bass, which model fronts have you heard? I initially tried the 904 floorstander, which werent bassy enough for me. I upgraded to the 906 which I am very happy with. They are far better all round actually.

    Regarding subwoofers, the BK XLS200 is an excellent choice. Having said that, it works perfectly in my room but its only about 4m squared. You may be better of with a larger enclosure - maybe look at the Velodyne CHT-10R.
     
  14. Alpolini

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    Hi GFS.

    I tried the 904s as well. Yes they are not bassy enough at all, mission m34 next to it (swithed between the two about 10 times) is much better in the lower freq but for me it was the tweeter that mattered most and mordaunt excels in my opinion. I probably will go for the 906 or even 908 (i there is a £150 worth difference) but regardless of these, the whole 8 speakers will depend on the sub.

    I read some great reviews on the modaunt short ms309 sub but would you say it will not be able to take the responsbility of the lower freqs??

    I have not heard Velodyne or BK but if I have to double my budget for the sub than its the way it has to be! (I'd rather go overdrawn than have a 99% system - too close to 100%)
     
  15. GFS AV

    GFS AV
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    Alpo,

    If I was you I would go for the 906. The only advantages you'll get from the 908 is the built in side-firing driver, and maybe slightly more power. But if you're getting a seperate sub, which is a MUST, there is no need for the extra bass extension from the 908. The 906 go very low anyway, they really are excellent I think. I think theyre a nicer size too actually - not so 'in yer face'!

    Yes, I would definately spend the rest on a nice sub! I think you could probably get away with the BK in your size room. It's an absolute cracker. Absolutely awesome sound quality and capable of doing some serious low end damage (for a budget sub). For £280 you just cant go wrong.
     
  16. Joe Fernand

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    Alpolini

    Having Centre, Front Left/Right and Surrounds that are a little bass shy is no bad thing when your going to be wall mounting and or positioning the floor mounted cabinets close to your boundary walls - you simply need a better sub that's clean up to the point where the rest of the system rolls off.

    If you are using the sub to fill in some of the lower mids keep in mind it'll be aurally more apparent where the sub lives in your room and placement may be more critical than the 'you can stick one anywhere' concept.

    Go with the best MS option you've auditioned, the higher spec Yamaha AV Receiver and add in a Velodyne sub - I'd go with the CHT-12R in your room. It'll extend the bottom end of the system down to (a specified) 25Hz and with the on board electronics you should be able to blend it well with your room and the MS cabinets.

    Best regards

    Joe
     
  17. Alpolini

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    Gfs,

    Here is a picture of the speaker plan I am hoping to do.

    For surround I am thinking of gettin the bipolar 903 speakers and the 902d for back surround. Bipolar use smallr woofers but there are 2 of them, which ones are you using, any difference in sound??

    thanks

    alp
     

    Attached Files:

  18. GFS AV

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    For use with home cinema only, I would say use the 903s for surrounds as these are better for effects. I have the 902s on stands which are also good though. If you're planning on listening to multichannel music, go for the 902s.

    Looking at your diagram, i'm not sure whether the 903s will be suitable for the back wall, as they seem quite far back. I would definately use them for the sides though. It's hard to tell from the diagram just how far away the back wall is from your seating position. I suppose you could get away with the 903s - just make sure you tell your amp how far away they are. If the amp is set up right, you should'nt have a problem.

    Also, on the diagram it looks like the near pair of surrounds are facing forward. I assume this is because the door is in the way. If possible, mount the 903s on the side walls - this should sound better. It's just how they work.
     
  19. Joe Fernand

    Joe Fernand
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    Alpolini

    If the 'walls' just behind the seating are floor to ceiling I'd be tempted to 'work' with your 'room within a room' and forget about installing loudspeakers on the far wall.

    I'd move the Front L/R in towards the centre of the front wall - start with them at the 'thirds' and see how they sound before adjusting them to find the optimal placement.

    I'd look at Dipole surrounds on your side walls - just ahead of the door I guess is the only position you'll get away with.

    And again Dipole's on the back walls - I'm assuming MS have some affordable Dipole's; if not don't go for anything with too much bass as your going to be sat pretty close to all of your loudspeakers.

    Sub positioning is tricky - you've already pin pointed what works aesthetically; unfortunately that may not work in practice.

    Start with your sub where your seat is and move around the room until you hear the best LF - that's where to put the sub; now go back to your seat and start adjusting the system parameters.

    Best regards

    Joe
     
  20. Alpolini

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    Thanks Joe and GFS.

    I am reading dolby and thx websites as well, and I think I will have to place the surround on my left and right, rather than slightly back. I was thinking about dipoles, but the 902 look a bit more musical. I am thinking of putting them where the wall meets the ceiling on both sides. I hear that will increase bass which this system needs.

    This room is pretty much 3.5m x 8m. The first-main part is about 3.5m x 4.5m.

    I am only going to Bipole the front 2 floorstanders.

    And hopefully that should to it?

    Many thanks for the advice - help. Very much appretiated. I have pretty much decided everything unfortunately I have to wait for the plasterer to finish his work before I even start purchasing - very frustrating.
     
  21. mhuk05

    mhuk05
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    Surely you mean biwire? ;)
     
  22. Alpolini

    Alpolini
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    thats the one
     
  23. mhuk05

    mhuk05
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    :rolleyes:

    So are you going the MS route or one of your other original options?
     
  24. GFS AV

    GFS AV
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    mhuk,

    did your 903s arrive in the end? How are they?
     
  25. mhuk05

    mhuk05
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    :mad: Grrr :mad: still waiting. Had a phone call and keep meaning to email them saying "send them now or refund my money"

    In fact, I'll do it now :smashin:
     
  26. Joe Fernand

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    Hello Alpolini

    You don't want 'music' coming out of your side or rear surrounds - you want diffuse effects.

    The Avant 902 are rear ported Bookshelf monitors (possibly not ideal for wall mounting) if you want Music and Movies go with the 903S for surround duties (side and rear) plus a decent sub and ensure your happy listening to your Front L/R as a Stereo pair for Music.

    I take it your hooked on the MS then? If there's anywhere nearby that carry the Atlantic Technology I'd still say give them a listen - very smooth treble; they use a great 1" soft dome tweeter across the whole range.

    Best regards

    Joe
     
  27. Alpolini

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    Thanks Joe for you advice, but Atlantic seem out of my budget plus no one in B'ham where I can listen to them.

    My 906 MS arrived, got it for £250, but there is no amp yet!-very frustrating.

    I will go for the dipoles x 4 and a centre but one questions, cabling. I do want to get a good cable since paying all this money but the problem is it is almost 46m of it I will need. The front 2 I will biwire so maybe £50 will go there no problem but there I don'y think I can afford more than £3-£4 per metre. Any suggestions??

    p.s. Everything is on hold, while I was selling my old Sony DVD kit, a guy who came round the house to look at it dropped the DVD on my Plasma!!!!!! The screen is scratched, I am currently waiting for contents insurance to come and have a look. So that put everything on hold
     
  28. mhuk05

    mhuk05
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    cpc.co.uk do OFC 2mm for about £37/ 100m reel
     
  29. Helicon

    Helicon
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    Having heard how M&K are head and shoulders above most manufacturers for AV, i would suggest having a listen to the K series. You could start with a sub and the front 3, and add the rears later. You can get three K-5's and a K-9 sub for around £900. They'll work well with the Denon or the Yamaha as they are fairly easy to drive.
     
  30. Joe Fernand

    Joe Fernand
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    Alpolini

    As you say the Atlantic Technology kit has pretty limited outlets around the UK - though an entry level 5:1 system now retails at £800.00 with the introduction of the NEW System 920.

    I'd suggest VanDamme Black Series 4 core for the fronts (4x2.5mm is £2.80/m and 4x4mm is £4.61/m) and VanDamme Blue Series 2 Core for the Surround and Rears (2x1.5mm is £1.43/m and 2x2.5mm is £2.17/m).

    These are un-terminated UK SRP's.

    Best regards

    Joe
     

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