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Meridian question..

Discussion in 'Hi-Fi Stereo Systems & Separates' started by chrisgeary, Apr 27, 2004.

  1. chrisgeary

    chrisgeary
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    all, not quite sure which forum to post this in, but here seems most appropriate. I have also posted this on the hitchikers site, but I am looking for opinions and advice here too.

    I have a Meridian 561 and a 506.24. I had the 506 prior to the 561 and now use it as a cd transport only. I'm wondering about selling the 506 and buying a meridian 24bit DAC instead, using that for the main speakers instead of the 561's DACs. My rationale is:
    - this would give me 6/7.1 capability
    - i could run a digital cable down to the power amps and site the DAC there
    - i would use my Pioneer 656A DVD player as a transport (i have read that DVD drives have lower jitter/error rates)

    Are there any reasons why I should or should not go down this path? Are there any problems with plugging a DAC fed by the 561 straight into a power amp? Glitch noise that might damage the speakers?
    I have been advised that I would need a 518 to control the volume of the audio as the 561 to a DAC would be uncontrolled. This is not a bad thing as I was considering putting a 518 into my digital chain anyway. The sale of the 506 should just about cover a 566 and 518 (plus a bit of cash i think).
    Another question about bit depth - If I understand it right, bit depth is all about dynamic range correct? So if I wanted to get the best out of movies, I need a 24 bit DAC rather than 20?

    cheers

    Chris
     
  2. GaryG

    GaryG
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    Chris

    If the above statement was your understanding from my replies on Hitchhikers then I have confused you.

    To clarify, the 568.2, which is what I was discussing WILL control the volume via the digital outputs, BUT you will need to manually type it to 7.1 AAA (the setting of analogue is the important bit).
     
  3. chrisgeary

    chrisgeary
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    hmm. i think thats the key difference. the 568 will do all analogue to 7.1 channels, whereas the 561 won't. so i need to utilise one of its digital channels - doesnt that mean that it would need another device inbetween the 561s digital output and the external DAC to control volume? i think thats what you were trying to get across?

    yes i think i am getting confused here..
     
  4. GaryG

    GaryG
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    ahhh, I can see where the confusion lies now.

    With 7.1 AAA the processor outputs a signal on BOTH the ANALOGUE and DIGITAL outputs, and both outputs are volume controlled.

    Of course whether the 561 exhibits the same behaviour is another matter.
     
  5. chrisgeary

    chrisgeary
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  6. GaryG

    GaryG
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    What is it you are trying to achieve?

    If it's just adding a couple of extra channels at the rear, then as you've pointed out, the 561 can only do that via the digital outputs so your options are limited.

    On the other hand, if you feel that your system is getting a little 'stale' and you're looking to inject some life into it, then that's another matter, 'step this way sir' and let's talk about other options!
     
  7. chrisgeary

    chrisgeary
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    in all honesty, the extra rear channels i would like in the future, but dont have the room for for now. but i would certainly be interested to step your way and listen to other options!
     
  8. GaryG

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    Adding extra channels is nice but, most of the information comes from the front channels; the center in the case of films, or the L/R pair for music. Also, DVD's are encoded with 5.1, so any 'extra' channels are extrapolated, usually from the rear channels, typically to give a 'fill in' sound on the sides. You would be spending a fair chunk of money to add a couple of extra channels that are for the most part going to be inactive, and when they are active they will only be providing a 'fill in' sound.

    1. Looking at your setup you have both a DVD player and a CD player, one option would be to sell both and get a DVD player that gave a better performance than both of your current items. Not an easy (or cheap) task though.

    2. Another option would be as above but accept that getting CD reply to match the 506 is challenging and go for a DVD player that functions well as a DVD but is also a good transport and use it to feed a digital signal to the 561 and use the 561 DACS.

    3. Another option is as option 2, but use a better quality external DAC than the internal 561 DAC and feed it from the L/R digital output on the 561 (asumming that it works in the same manner as the 568.2).

    4. Keep your DVD and sell the 506 and buy a good quality CD transport/DAC and use it in the same manner as option 3, as a replacement for the 561 internal L/R DAC.

    5. If you don't mind using a computer you could replace your DVD player and scaler with a HTPC which would give an improvement on DVD playback.

    Other options include changes to amps and speakers but I would suggest an upgrade to a source would be better, the amps and speakers can't add something that hasn't been retrieved by the source.

    As I mentioned on the other forum, you're more than welcome to come up for a demo (I'm not a dealer by the way!), I can run through the above options (except option 1) plus maybe a couple of others for you to see what suits you (and your pocket!).
     
  9. chrisgeary

    chrisgeary
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    extra channels: i think i agree. and if i want them, i can just take the existing surround LR channels and duplicate that audio to another set of speakers in the future.

    ok. so to your other options:

    1. I'm very happy with my DVD player's performance. I have no plans to change it.

    2. I think my dilemma is whether to connect the 506 using analogue, and have it go through DA/AD/DA or use SPDIF. From what I have read about jitter etc, it sounds like analogue would be the better choice, but psychologically doing those extra conversion steps don't sit right with me.

    3. Well this is the logical follow on from the discussions about jitter. Using an external dac is apparently a possible source of impurity shall we say, but a 518 might be a reasonable cure to it. In my mind, I have to work out whether the cost is worth it, it might be on the secondhand market. Plus I get the benefit of balanced connections to my monoblocs. My other hope was that some of the noise the 561 generates would be lost.

    4. Sell the 506 - i guess this depends on what I decide in points 2 and 3. But I do have a soft spot for it, would be hard to part company.

    5. I'm not keen on HTPC - its just the computer side of it - I work with them everyday and i do so like coming home and popping a disc in a regular CD/DVD player and it just works :thumbsup:

    Back to what am i trying to achieve: I guess its this - I want to get the best out of my system, partly by understanding how all the components work together.
     
  10. GaryG

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    I wouldn't get too hung up on the 'jitter' thing, a sytem with low jitter that sounds 'pants' isn't of much use to anyone.

    If the 561 is noisy maybe you should change that, presumeably you don't use the video switching options on it so a 568 would make sense and give you the option of the extra channels at a later date.
     
  11. GaryG

    GaryG
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    Just re-read your post, correct me if I'm wrong, but you're using the 561 as a pre-amp for the 506.24?

    If so the DAC in the 506 is on a hiding to nothing because of the conversion stages in the 561.

    If you're connecting the 506 to the 561 via a digital connection then you're not using the 506 DAC and it's wasted.

    Either way, you are not getting the best out of your system.
     
  12. chrisgeary

    chrisgeary
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    i am using the video switching in the 561. i cant afford a 568.

    im using the 561 as a DAC for the 506 (using analogue just doesnt feel right). overall, im really happy with the 561 too, so i dont think i want to change that either. just wanted to be sure i was hooking it all up as best i can - but if there were ways to enhance it, i would investigate them.
     
  13. GaryG

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    Okay, we're whittling the options down pretty quickly. Given that you are only using the 506 as a transport, even though you like it, is would make sense to sell it and buy a transport. A 602 will easily see off the 506, and at later date you have the option of modifying the clock with an even lower jitter clock than the one it's fitted with.
     
  14. GaryG

    GaryG
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    or do the electrical equivalent of chopping your 502.24 in half and get a 500 transport and a 566 DAC, that way you get your transport for CD replay and the DAC for your rear channels.
     
  15. CJROSS

    CJROSS
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    Chris I dont know hwere you are in reagrd to this thread as regards feeding rear channels with a separate DAC but from an outisders point of view who has used a DVD transport for years without any problems into DACs, I would say a DVD player (like the one you currently own) is perfectly fine to send a PCM stream towards a DAC for processing without the need to buy another CD transport. Once you hear your DVD player streaming 48Khz material (irrespective of bit length from your query at the start) you may well be surprised.

    Anyway dont be in a hurry to discount the DVD just yet.

    But hey thats just me dude !!
     
  16. chrisgeary

    chrisgeary
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    Gary: yeah those are pretty much my thoughts, to sell the 506 and buy a transport or..

    CJ: I have Tubular Bells 2003, the DVD-A. I have heard both the stunning DTS mix and the regular soundtracks and they are excellent. The 561 does a superb job of rendering the 5.1 soundtrack without revealing the speakers locations - it just envelops the audio around the listener, quite stunning...

    which brings me back to transports again. I will do a listening test for myself, of course, but subject to that, what I might just do is sell the 506 and replace it with a 518 between all my digital sources and the 561. Either way, I am coming to the conclusion that my Pioneer DVD player should be a more than capable transport and I could pocket the change to invest in a more powerful sub, that I definitely DO need and possible the 518 which may yield some sonic advantages over a Transport/DAC combo.
     
  17. GaryG

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    I bought a 518 last week, hopefully will get it early next week. If you're interested I'll let you know how I get on with it. Intend to test it between transport and DAC and between transport and 568.2 and between 568.2 and DAC.

    I did try a 518 years ago when I used to have the 566 DAC, but only as a volume control, at that point it wasn't an improvement over the Audiolab 8000Q pre-amp. Now that I no longer use an analogue pre-amp (my DAC has a volume control and acts as a digital-preamp) I'll give it a go as a 'resolution enhancer' and see how it fairs. I've spoken to the designer of the DAC I use and he said he used the 518 during the development of the DAC as a benchmark for getting the best performance out of the DAC. He didn't think it would make much difference in terms of 'resolution enhancement' but thought it may improve 'jitter' depending on the quality of the transport be used. In my case I don't think jitter is that much of an issue, but we'll see.
     
  18. CJROSS

    CJROSS
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    Chris

    Just to point out that my system has been a DVD based transport with DAC for a few years now (1998 IIRC) and Its always been used as part of a hifi system rather than a 5.1 gig. I bascially argue that a DVD player (like the one you have just now dude) is an adequate device for transporting a PCM signal to a DAC at an "audiophile" level, it is oft held up that jitter causes huge problems in transport - DAC combos especially DVD transports, well I have never heard it trying a few DVDs off the DACs I have used. There is a sea change occurring I have noticed since the arrival of the hi-rez formats like SACD & DVDA, in that more and more people are using these types of players into a quality DAC for CD duties and getting the benefits of SACD/DVDA out of the 5.1 sockets on the player. And even the old universally "cruddy" toslink connector is in fashion again now being promoted by various users into DACs (including running long length PC based scenarios for DAC use), so take with a pinch of salt all advice (including mine FWIW) you may recieve, some of us in this hobby find happiness a lot sooner than others if you know what I mean.

    There is an aspect that I like to promote about using DVD based DAC setups as well, and thats the humble old DVD-V format being able to produce stunning results via a stereo system of reasonable quality. Many music DVD-Vs (I collect mainly live concert DVD-Vs) that come with either a DD 5.1 & a Linear PCM 16/48 stereo track, and many also include DTS 5.1, all for the price of a CD these days, I have done a few listening tests of a couple of comparable DVD-V & CD releases that I own here are 2 that are worth mentioning where I feel the DVD-V is better than the CD versions :

    KD Lang Live By Request and this is up against the CD version which is HDCD encoded (I also collect laods of them too)
    Lauryn Hill - MTV Unplugged. Both of these discs carry LPCM mixes that are in my mind superior than the CD versions, and even listening to them downmixed from 5.1 to stereo is superb. Anyway its a small point I think is overlooked by stereo orientated audiophiles that DVD-V based transports are well worth using off a quality DAC, especially ones like Meridian. Anyway Im not disputing that you get excellent sounds with CD tranpsorts you do, I just feel audiophilia lends itself to knocking "lesser" solutions a lot of the time, something I dont hear myself.

    ATB
     
  19. chrisgeary

    chrisgeary
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    Gary: yep, would be interested to hear your views on the 518.

    CJ: thanks for your input. I too share the view about DVD-V. I may yet source a Meridian 500 transport, just because. But I think I have a clear direction now. I will do some listening to confirm/deny my logic.
     
  20. GaryG

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    CJ

    With your experience of DVD-V, have I just been unlucky or is my experience representative of the market? I bought the Michael Jackson 'Number One's' DVD, didn't check the packaging as I'd been looking at his other music DVD moments before which stated 5.1. Got the 'Number One's' DVD home and it was a PCM soundtrack, on top of that the lip sync was terrible. Felt that it was a waste of money but was worth hanging on to just for the 'Thriller' film.
     
  21. GaryG

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    Chris

    Just this second got an email saying the 518 was on it's way, should have it tomorrow. Hopefully I'll be able to try out the options over the weekend and give you some feedback.
     
  22. CJROSS

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    Gary

    Funnily enough one of the best produced standard redbook CDs I own is Michael Jackson - History (which can be picked up for £6 at HMV since No.1s came out), with all his number ones, I would easily compare it to any top notch HDCD recording I owna veritable reference recording, so it was with great interest I got a loan of the exact same DVD-V version (with all the videos) and lo & behold it was a DD 2.0 soundtrack which sounds absolutely pitiful I hate giving scales to things but we are tlaking 60% of the quality of the CD, I think the No.1s with a LPCM would be a better bet than DD 2.0. Anyway that is my MJ DVD story, sort of been wary since then of compilation DVDs. FWIW I recall staying up till 2am to watch "Thriller" on Channel 4. Superb stuff, good shout on the Thriller vid. Shame how its panned out since those heady days of Billie Jean & Thriller.

    But in general terms this is a very rare event in DVD terms IMO, as I said earlier most that I buy are Live Concert type DVD-Vs, and at a minimum they include DD 5.1 & LPCM (or if Im unlcuky a DD 2.0) stereo track. But more and more im finding that they also include a DTS 5.1 mix in addition to these tracks, FWIW I find DD 5.1 downmixed into stereo via the DAC as a wonderful experience. Some of the stuff Im hearing via my stereo system and DVD-V is without question recordings of the audiophile standard, even in 5.1 > Stereo downmixes for example :

    Peter Gabriel - Growing Up Live ( DD.5.1 & DTS 5.1) Stunning
    U2 Live at Slane Castle (DD 5.1, DTS 5.1 & 16/48 LPCM) The best live recording Ive ever heard of U2 FWIW
    Fleetwood Mac : The Dance (DD 5.1 & 16/48 LPCM)
    Dave Gilmour Live (DD 5.1 & 24/48 LPCM) this has to be heard to be believed
    Neil Finn Seven Worlds Collide (DD 5.1 & 16/48 LPCM)
    Dixie Chicks Home Live (DD 5.1 & DD 2.0 IIRC)
    Lauryn Hill MTV unplugged (DD 5.1 & 16/48 LPCM)
    Robbie Williams at the Albert (big band swing) (DD 5.1 & 16/48 LPCM) I know he is a **** but you need to hear this I tells ya if you like big band swing.
    Sting : All this Time (DD 5.1 only IIRC) but this shows what DVD-V can achieve its simply stunning

    One little note, all of the discs above as I said I have listened to in DD 5.1 downmix mode to my stereo DAC just to compare to the stereo LPCM tracks and in most cases the LPCM tracks sounds better, but the odd one pops up and surprises you, Lauryn Hill is one such DVD I prefer the DD 5.1 track in stereo, there is something about DVD-V as a format that IMHO gives a warmth sometimes missing from CD and prevalent in vinyl playback anyway thats some random views.

    So as a rule I would buy live concert stuff without worry, but "compilation" video type DVDs of greatest hits well, then yout taking a chance.
     
  23. chrisgeary

    chrisgeary
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    I second the Sting / All this time concert as being one of the best recordings along with the aforementioned Tubular Bells DVDA (although I listen to the DVD-V area in preference). They are both stunningly well made discs. They, for me too, show what DVD-V is capable of. I prefer it to CD audio anyday!
     
  24. GaryG

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    Thanks CJ.

    Glad to hear that it was just case of me being unlucky with my first purchase.

    I thought the PCM track sounded a bit rough, I've got the History CD and although I didn't do a direct A/B comparison I did feel that the DVD wasn't as good.

    As as aside without hijacking Chris's thread too much, I can't see SACD or DVD-A making much headway as DVD-V is becoming very popular. Joe public is more interested in getting sound and pictures rather than more speakers to litter the living room, or the (debatable) higher quality of the new formats which aren't going to be noticeable on your average Hi-Fi stack.
     
  25. chrisgeary

    chrisgeary
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    i am such a nightmare at decision making. and in the process i have annoyed a fellow forum member :(
    anyway, i read some more about the 518 - seems it just passes DD and DTS without any processing. Given that I can just hook up an additional set of speakers for the rears/sides that negates the need for another DAC. The 506 is too lovely to sell and even just using the digital connection, its a nice transport. No point selling it for a 500 transport me thinks. And what if I move on from the 561?

    So im keeping my 506 and ill leave it hooked up digitally. Im not buying an external DAC, although I realised last night that I have one kicking about already so I could test some stuff if I wanted. Question remains, do I get hold of a 518 to put between the 506 and 561. I await, with interest, your views on it Gary.
     
  26. GaryG

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    Chris

    What was the outcome of compairing your DVD player as a transport against the 506 as a transport?

    With regard to the 518, it arrived today, if I get a chance I will have a fiddle with it tonight and give you a bit of feedback.
     
  27. chrisgeary

    chrisgeary
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    I've just done it. The result was that the sound was pretty much the same. If anything, I thought that the presentation by the DVD player as transport was ever so slightly more open but I might have imagined it. I used track 3 on Damien Rice's CD and played about the first minute and a half on each player three times each.

    The difference is not enough that I could tell you which transport was which blindfolded. I dont think I could honestly discern a difference.

    If you discover that the 518 does magical things, which from what I have read here and there seems to be the consensus, then it might be a smart move for me to pick one up, do the test with and without on both transports.
     
  28. GaryG

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    I've tested the 518 with both my G98 and 602, very difficult to tell any difference. As I mentioned, I didn't feel jitter was much of an issue in my system. The noise shaping makes a very subtle difference, adds a little extra body to the sound, like having slightly heavier gauge strings on an acoustic guitar but it's very difficult to notice the difference. As I mentioned, the designed of my DAC used the 518 as a reference so that may be the reason that the improvement is very subtle. I'll have a bash with the 568.2 acting as the DAC, probably be tomorrow now I need to do a bit of shuffling with my kit to make it work.
     
  29. GaryG

    GaryG
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    Repeated the test with the 518 feeding the 568.2. Same thing, the difference is almost imperceptable, takes quite a while to home in on what the difference is. My 602 is fitted with an Audio Synthesis re-clocking board and the G98 has a fancy buffer so neither of them have much in the way of jitter, perhaps the 518 would have more effect on a source with more jitter. Would suggest you try and test one in your system before commiting to buying one.
     

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