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matrix reloaded...poss spoilers

Discussion in 'Movie Forum' started by MrFurious, Oct 26, 2003.

  1. MrFurious

    MrFurious
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    just watched it for the first time since cinema visit and i have to say i enjoyed it much more at home,i forwarded to zion stuff!!!also i understood the movie much more this time,i'm not stupid but it did confuse me at the cinema!only one thing bugs me at the moment,anyone feel free to pm me with your interpertation of the oracles bodyguard seraph??also at the end when they find the one survivor where did that attack take place?pm me please
     
  2. TheBigApple

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    My interpritation of the bodyguard is that he was a plot device for a fight sequence. :D

    As for the survivour, this will probably make more sense if you buy the video game, I think. :thumbsdow
     
  3. WBC

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    If you don't want to buy the video game and you can wait.....I'm sure the game will be on a new nokia soon :laugh:

    Unless another franchise jumps in early and nokia's are used instead of lightsabres :zonked:

    Stace :D
     
  4. dsw182

    dsw182
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    MAYBE POSSIBLE SPOILERS but I don't think so.

    The idea put over by the film is that anything supernatural in the world is actaully a glitch with the Matrix or some program not doing what they are supposed to be doing. For example, the Twins (ghosts), Merovingians bodyguards (werewolves,vampires) & the deja-vu stuff. Seraph is similar to Seraphim. A Seraphim is a type of angel & so that may be what Seraph is; a no longer used angel program.

    You don't need the Matrix game to know about the attack, as it is talked about in detail in Reloaded. The attack is the Zionists plan to counterattack the machine diggers. It goes wrong when an EMP is set off 'accidently', only one survivor- Bane/Smith.

    Hope some of that makes sense.
     
  5. Dimmy

    Dimmy
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    A lot of potential spoilers underneath, and you'll have to 'decifer' what I'm talking about here :)

    Below is an analysis of the scene in which neo has his conversation with the Oracle then Smith. I had a few problems getting half way through writing this down then forgetting my own point, but I'll do my best to explain myself:

    Neo & The Oracle's Conversation

    "The same reason, I Love Candy (watch the film to understand whre this statement occurs in the conversation with the oracle).

    Several things of noteworth form here. Having established that all perceivable 'life' in the matrix is controlled by programs written around its nature, we learn that the appeasing options all humans 'choose' within the matrix (and the machines' Control parameters) is ultimately the most desireable option. As signified by the sweet taste of Candy. Also noteworthy is that Sugar is an addictive (and essential) component of consumption, with this knowledge the machines manage to predict the options everybody in the matrix will chose to take under each circumstance. They continue to "Take The Candy" so to speak.

    As the oracle explains that programs were written to govern thebirds in the park, we realise that programs could just as easily have been written to 'govern' humans. The problem with this theory is explained by the architect, and - if you didn't understand it - I'll be posting again later to explain further. Incidentally, we learn from this that all the matrix has learned to do is interpret and feed the mind digitally, not digitize the mind (this is because - if the machines had learned to digitize the mind - programs written for the governing of people and the provision of 'perfection' in the very first matrix Agent Smith speaks of in the first film would never have been rejected by any people).
    It's also attainable from this that Smith's 'Cloning' of himself involves omnipresent hacking; he has learned to hack the input/output signals of people linked up to the matrix (cause) and he humanely 'Embodies' their existence in the matrix in a similar way to Agents did (effect). Later on, I'll explain why this is his connection to neo (in a later post).

    We are also explained to that programs hacking other programs in the matrix occurs upon their own deletion and creates inbalanced anomalies and 'Glitches' in the matrix (the references to Ghosts & Warewolfs). We also learn that, upon deletion, programs return to the source of their deletion - or the Causality for their demise.
    Its at this point the question arises of 'What did Smith do when Neo 'Deleted' him'?

    The Neo & Smith Conversation Analysis

    What did smith do upon his deletion at the hands of Neo?

    Immediately we learn of Smith's connection with Neo of which he speaks, an imprint between the two. This has to be an imprint of humanity, as Smith's option (self confessed) of exile involves his making a 'Choice' to stay in the matrix, and programs - such as Agents - are completely governed by machines and do not have the luxury of 'Choice'
    n.b.1
    If you think about the premise of what dsw182 speaks in his former post, all the matrix 'Glitches' of which he speaks are a cross between Humanity and an Anomalie. Warewolfs are men until full moons, Vampires are men with 'weaknesses'
    n.b.2
    Smith's monologue banter toward Morpheus in the first film shows him as a program that has 'desire' to do as it's not supposed to - yet still ultimately does. This makes Agent Smith one of the 'problem' programs which face deletion from the matrix at the hands of the machines. Were this to occur, Smith's exile would have resulted in no more than a 'Botched Man' than a fusion of Agent and 'The One'. - More on this later :)



    As I said, I'll no doubt post more later, I would've PMd this to thread users but it's a bit too long to fit into 100 words.

    I'll proof read it after I've posted it and edit it with the hope of it making a little more literal sense.
     
  6. NicolasB

    NicolasB
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    No. You're reading that wrong. It's:

    Neo: "Why are you here?"

    Oracle: "The same reason you are." (Pause. Change of Subject: ) "I love candy."

    The "reason" doesn't refer to eating candy, but to what they had been discussing previously about making choices, or having already made choices and now wanting to understand why they made them. (Neo queries whether he has a choice about whether to eat the candy or not if the Oracle knows in advance whether he will or not).


    The purpose of the Matrix is to keep human bodies contained. The machines need them to generate power. If the humans knew they were lying in boxes, they'd be trying to escape, so the Matrix prevents this by providing an illusory form of freedom.

    The Architect explains that the reason why the earlier versions of the Matrix did not succeed was the problem of choice. People had to be able to make a choice to stay in the Matrix (even if they didn't consciously realise they had made the choice). Hence the need for Zion - with an actual alternative there is no possibility of choice. (Another bit of cod Matrix religious allegory, there - some branches of Christianity believe that Evil has to exist because God needs us to choose to follow Him of our own free will, which means He has to provide an alternative choice).

    The Matrix certainly does digitise the mind - otherwise what happened to Smith wouldn't have happened, and part of the reason for the existence of The One would be eliminated. But the reason the Matrix exists at all is to manage human bodies, not minds. To completely remove the human mind would cause the body to die, which is the exact opposite of what the Matrix is designed to achieve.


    What?! No. When Smith takes over a human, that human's mind and personality are irrevocably destroyed in the real world as well as in the Matrix. Smith is copying his own personality into that person's brain, permanently overwriting the original contents of that brain. This is what allows him to acquire a body in the real world, attempt to stab Neo, and sabotage the defence of Zion by prematurely setting on an EMP.


    No. The "glitches" are caused by programs behaving in ways that they are not supposed to behave. This often happens because the programs do not wish to be deleted, and so run away and turn rogue. The glitches are an act of rebellion.


    No. Programs such as agents are sentient, conscious entities, with their own free-will. We see this in the first film where Smith takes off his ear-piece and temporarily disconnects himself from receiving updates.
     
  7. Dimmy

    Dimmy
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    Yes it does. The machine's control mechanisms for everything neo experienced beforehand in the matrix pre-determined his desire for food and 'Candy'.

    But how did the machines ultimately know he'd take the candy - How did the oracle know? - Like I said, prediction based on likelyhood of choice. In much the same way as the machines make predictions of whether humans would accept the matrix given choice.


    If the mind itself had been digitized by the machines then people who had been set free by Zion would have irrevecably retained their digitized minds in Zion - they haven't, they don't interpret everything digitally, they interpret in the 'Normal' human way.

    What I'm trying to tell you happenned with smith is that Neo's 'Humanity' is the connection between the two. If it weren't Smith wouldn't have been able to embody the person he does by Picking up the telephone patched to the hard-line near the start of the film.

    It's also impossible that the mind is digitized because Neo's mind is 'Omnipresent' between the Matrix & the Real World - this is exemplified when he's flying to save Trinity from falling and he tightens his fist in the real world - sort of a 'dream' state.


    This theory is proved wrong when Smith tries to 'Turn' neo into another smith. As an Agent, smith only hacked the input output signals of people in the matrix (remember that appearence of ones self in the matrix is your own digital projection of yourself). However, Smith 'Becomes' the human in Reloaded because his connection with Neo becomes some degree of humanity. My theory is that this degree is a generalized (between smiths) Connection and 'Love' derived from Neo's for Trinity.



    The glithces are caused by Programs hacking other programs. However, if programs such as Agent Smith hacked the program that creates 'Birds' or whatforth, then they'd remain purely digital and be able to be found and deleted by the machines anyway. As it stands, programs facing deletion 'hack' the input output signals of Humans and thus (as smith did) receive an inprint of humanity on their program Remit, and can't be found by machines as they inhabit a conscious mind within the matrix. However - this never goes perfectly to plan, hence you have Humans with oddities (ghosts & warewolfs). However, Smith's connection with Neo is far more powerful than 'A Botched Human' - you'll see why in Revolutions.

    And no, programs such as agents are not with their own free-will. As that wierd french guy in the restaurant says; Choice is an illusion created by those with power for those without. It becomes clear that the machines have embarked upon politics similar to his own understanding of The Matrix. Ever wonder why there aren't Sentinals that 'Slack Off' or Conscious Bombs that don't decide not to try and escape? Programs like Agents are very much drones who've been given an illusion of choice - whilst Agent Smith had his own agenda in the first film (a program fault), he still did as was required by the machines.
     
  8. dsw182

    dsw182
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    I realise this is a Reloaded thread, but do we really have to speak like The Architect....Ergo, concordedly, vis-a-vis we are still human......
     

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