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Marantz S3 -> PC via DVI doesn't work

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by wendt, Apr 17, 2005.

  1. wendt

    wendt
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    I'm trying to connect my PC to my Marantz S3 via DVI and can't seem to get any picture. Whatever I do I just get a distorted picture (and sometimes the message "out of range"). With my old S2 I just plug it in and fired it away. No problem what so ever. The old S2 managed to sync with nearly every resolution I tried but the S3 doesn't work with any I tried. :mad:
    Can anyone help me?? :lease:

    /Wendt
     
  2. Paul D

    Paul D
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    You should have no problems at all via DVI.

    My S3 syncs to nearly everthing i throw at it.

    However, my first S3 had a minor picture fault(one of the first two units in the country).
    This unit did have strange problems via DVI, like not showing the boot screens from the HTPC, but was fine once 1280x720 was displayed.
    It didn't want to know my ATI card at all!

    My replacement unit, works flawlessly so proves it must have been a fault or firmware issue.

    Just a couple of questions, so i can try and help.

    How long is your DVI cable?
    What VGA card are you using?(plus driver version)
    And how old is the unit?
    What refresh rate are you using?

    Either way, you shouldn't be having these problems.
     
  3. Geezer

    Geezer
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    Does your PC DVI carry HDCP?
     
  4. wendt

    wendt
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    Paul D:

    Yes, my old S2 also synced almost everything you throw it, but the S3 seems to be the right opposite.

    I reconnected everything tonight and now I at least get a picture although not pretty. I think I might have had too high refresh rate yesterday.
    There are now three things that's wrong here:

    1. I get sparklies at resolutions 720 and higher. Very strange because the exact same setup worked fine with the S2 and when I use the same cable with my Pio 868 it works flawlessly at both 720p and 1080i.

    2. The resolution probably doesn't pixel match with the S3 because the image looks blurry at 1280x720. Just like when you set the resolution on a PC to 1280x1024 when using a LCD monitor with a 1600x1200 panel.

    3. When setting the resolution to 1920x1080 i get no image, only the error message "out of range" on the S3.

    Heres the info you requested and hope that you could help me:

    How long is your DVI cable? 12m HDMI-HDMI with two HDMI-DVI adapters (One when using Pio 868)
    What VGA card are you using?(plus driver version) ATI Radeon X800XT with Catalyst 5.4 (Driver pack 8.121)
    And how old is the unit? I got the S3 less than 2 weeks ago but it wasn't brand new. It has 240h on the total hours counter.
    What refresh rate are you using? Yesterday, probably too high. But tonight I have tested 720 at 60Hz and a lot of other lower RFR's.

    Geezer:
    Don't know. But I suppose so because today the screen doesn't seem scrambled and also the same setup worked fine with the S2.

    /Wendt
     
  5. Paul D

    Paul D
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    Right, here goes... (some of this may be telling you how to suck eggs, but i may as well cover most of it anyway :D )

    Q:
    How long is your DVI cable? "12m HDMI-HDMI with two HDMI-DVI adapters (One when using Pio 868)"

    A:
    Although you are using a HDMI cable, you are still restricted to DVI cable lengths. HDMI and DVI cables use similar cores that have different plugs at the end.
    It is the transmission and receiving circuits that enable longer runs with HDMI.
    Anything over 7.5m is hit and miss with DVI.
    You will find increasing sparklies, the higher the resolution or refresh rate.
    Since anything over 1280x720 is downscaled ayway, there is no benefit to running any higher.

    Q:
    What VGA card are you using?(plus driver version) "ATI Radeon X800XT with Catalyst 5.4 (Driver pack 8.121)"

    A:
    Your card high end, so there should be no problems on it's part.
    I would check with Marantz UK, that your unit has the latest firmware.
    Or at least if they are aware of any problems with ATI cards etc.

    Q:
    And how old is the unit? "I got the S3 less than 2 weeks ago but it wasn't brand new. It has 240h on the total hours counter."

    A:
    Same as above.
    No official firmware releases etc, but there was a difference between my first and second unit.

    Q:
    What refresh rate are you using? "Yesterday, probably too high. But tonight I have tested 720 at 60Hz and a lot of other lower RFR's."

    A:
    First of all, the S3s highest frame rate is 60hz.
    Anything higher is downconverted.
    Higher refresh rates are needed for CRT displays etc.
    Since flicker isn't an issue even at 48hz, anything above 60 isn't needed.
    Most games have a "true" frame rate well lower than 60 FPS.

    47.954hz for film/50hz for PAL/59.94 for NTSC and 60hz for gaming etc.

    The S3 can take 1920x1080 via DVI, but it must be "Interlaced" ie 1080i not 1080p.
    As you may know, 1-1 pixel matching is always best on fixed panel projectors.
    1080 will have to be down converted anyway.
    If you have to run that high (but is pointless), then just ensure your graphics card is set to interlaced.

    I run a 2m(HDMI and DVI) to a 9m DVI cable with zero sparklies.(11m in total)
    I bought a superb DVI switcher from Joe at www.tmfsolutions.co.uk .
    I found it resamples and boosts any HDMI or DVI signal fed to it.
    I connected my 868i via a 2m HDMI to DVI cable to the switcher.
    The HTPC is connected via a 2m DVI-DVI cable.
    This then runs via a 9m DVI-DVI cable to the S3.

    Since you mention reconnecting the cables did help a little. Maybe this suggests that one of the adaptors or plugs are a little loose/worn etc.
    I can only suggest trying my method of connection etc.

    My personal choice from the HTPC is:-

    1280x720p at the three refresh rates mentioned above for HTPC/868i use. ;)
     
  6. wendt

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    Oh, our posts tend to get very long .
    Thank you for your all the information but it doesn't seem to get me any closer to to the solution.

    About the cable and sparklies I know about the limitations but since it works with the 868 connected to the S3 in both 720p and 1080i (and did work with the S2 connected to the PC) I think it is stange that it doesn't with the S3.
    But I think I should put that problem a side for now and focus on why I can't get 1-1 pixel matching (And for now use a shorter cabel which works without sparklies).

    Regarding the 720 vs. 1080 discussion I'm in reality only interested in using 720p since this is the native resolution of the HD-2 chip.

    I do not have any connection problem. I'm pretty sure that I had set the refresh rate to high on the first occasion.

    Do you use the drivers from the graphic card vendor only or do you also use PowerStrip?
    I'm also curious about what does Windows recognize your S3 as in "Display Properties -> Settings -> Advanced -> Monitor"?
    Have you made any changes in setting on the S3 to get it to work with the S3?
    Do you have the DVI setting in the S3 set to Auto, 720p or HTPC?

    /Wendt
     
  7. Paul D

    Paul D
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    I have the DVI port set to auto.

    The problem i had using the ATI card was getting it to recognise the S3s "EDID".
    I just gave up trying to get the ATI card to work.
    It may have just been a driver problem.

    Since using the nVidia card, i have no further problems etc.
    My Monitors is recognised as "Marantz VP12-S3"
     
  8. wendt

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    I'm not really sure what EDID means but I think it's the identification string that other equipment can request from the unit to display it in it's menus. Maybe it also contains some parameters about what signals it accepts. Am I right?

    Just to make sure I understand your case correctly.
    First you had some problems with the S3 not showing the boot screens from the HTPC. This was solved by a replacement unit.
    Then after that you had problems with the graphic card recognizing the "EDID" and this you solved by getting a new graphics card.

    If this is right there is probably nothing wrong with my S3 but rather in the graphic card or in it's driver.

    I am right now installing OS on a another PC to try it and see if I get the same problem.
    i will get back later tonight with some more information about the progress.

    /Wendt
     
  9. wendt

    wendt
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    Update
    Sorry about the delay but something came up that I had to do first.
    I have now tried to connect a computer with a different graphics card (ASUS 9600XT) and the result is I have the same problem with this card.
    When booting the PC I can see the windows logo but but after that the screen goes black and I get the "Out of range" message.
    Unfortunate the other graphic card I got hold of was also an ATI. It would have been more interesting to try a NVidia. :-(

    I hope that marantz can get back to me soon with some help.

    /Wendt
     
  10. wendt

    wendt
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    Paul

    There's a program called Monitor Asset Manager that can read the EDID from a display device. Would you mind running this program and save the information (a text file and a .mif file) for me?

    Also, do you still have your old ATI card?

    /Wendt
     
  11. Paul D

    Paul D
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    No problem!
    I will try it and get back to you as soon as i can with the info.(Tue/Wed)

    I do have an old ATI card, but no i won't try it! :D (HTPC to stable to mess!)

    If i remember rightly, the only way i could get the ATI card to display, was either VGA mode 640x480 etc.(safe mode etc)
    Or 1280x720 at 60hz via powerstrip settings.

    If you are nearby, i have a spare nVidia 6600gt "AGP" you could try. (I'm in Manchester)
    It will be going into a new media PC for the living room soon, so let me know. :)
     
  12. wendt

    wendt
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    That would be lovely.

    I know what you mean. If it works fine don't touch it. Especially regarding HTPC. I have begun using Norton Ghost when experimenting lately. If anythings going wrong I could revert to previous state in just 20 minutes.



    For me 640x480 works and also 1280x720 (without powerstrip) but the the image isn't looking good at any of these resolutions. What I think is odd is that when booting the PC with the old S2 I always got image, both at bootup and in windows. And if the resolution was higher (for example 1600x1200) when booting I got a scrolling desktop so that I could have the chance to change the resolution in Catalyst Control Center. If I then changed the resolution to 1280x720 in CCC I got 1-1 pixel matching.
    But with the S3 I can't seem to get the Graphics card to recognize the limits of the projector and therefore don't get any image after boot or 1-1 pixel matching when setting it to 720.



    Well, thank you very much for the kind offer but I live in Sweden so it's kinda long way to travel just to lend a graphics card. But if I'm in the neighbourhood someday I might take you up on that offer. ;) :laugh:
     
  13. Paul D

    Paul D
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    I will try the software Wednesday afternoon.(on nights tuesday etc)

    I do know that the S3 limits the VGA card via DVI to 1280x1024"p" max.
    That's the EDIDs maximum reported size.

    Anyway, i will contact you with the monitors report etc.

    As for trying my nVidia card. If you pay for the diesel, i will drop it off! :D
     
  14. Paul D

    Paul D
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    wendt,

    I didn't get chance to try the software today due to being called into work early.
    Will try again tomorrow... :smashin:
     
  15. wendt

    wendt
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    No problem. Try it when you have some spare time.

    Also, today I got an answer from Marantz:
    "The phenomena you are facing indeed can be related to EDID data. Depending on the used PC and the installed graphic card it could happen that the screen will keep black.
    The solution is new software for VP-12S3. We just got this and would like to test it before starting updating customer machines. A test of it is running at a service agent I was awaiting the feedback.
    We will come to you as soon as possible."


    So right now I'm keeping a low profile until Marantz get back to me about the new software.

    /Wendt
     
  16. Paul D

    Paul D
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    This updated software seems interesting.

    As i mentioned, my first unit was a no-no with ATI(only 640x480 and 1280x720), and had a few quirks with nVidia.(no boot screen shown!)
    The replacement worked flawlessly with the nVidia card, so must have had newer software than the first unit etc.

    If nVidias software works so well with the S3, maybe the blame lies with the ATI software.(I think the newer nVidia software just ignores the EDID data)
    Or it could be a combination of the ATI software and incorrect EDID data in the S3.
    It is good to see Marantz respond with new software either way, as it means our choice of VGA card will not be limited to nVidia. :thumbsup:

    PS.
    If possible, try to get the latest firmware number, and this new software update number.
    That way all us S3 owners can check we are current etc
    Thanks...
     
  17. Paul D

    Paul D
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    OK Heres the Info file:-

    Monitor
    Windows description......... Plug and Play Monitor
    Manufacturer description.... VP-12S3 DVI
    Manufacturer................ MJI
    ————————————————————————————
    Plug and Play ID............ MJI0003
    Serial number............... n/a
    EDID data source............ I2C bus (real-time)
    ————————————————————————————
    Manufacture date............ 2003, ISO week 41
    EDID revision............... 1.3
    Display type and signal..... Digital
    Sync input support.......... Separate, Sync on green
    Screen size................. n/a
    Power management............ n/a

    Color characteristics
    Display gamma............... 2.20
    Red chromaticity............ Rx 0.640 - Ry 0.330
    Green chromaticity.......... Gx 0.300 - Gy 0.600
    Blue chromaticity........... Bx 0.150 - By 0.060
    White point (default)....... Wx 0.313 - Wy 0.329

    Timing characteristics
    VESA GTF support............ Not supported
    Horizontal scan range....... 30-48kHz (est.)
    Vertical scan range......... 48-60Hz (est.)
    Video bandwidth............. 80MHz (est.)
    Extension blocks............ n/a
    Timing recommendation #1.... 1280x720 at 60Hz
    Modeline................ "1280x720" 74.250 1280 1350 1430 1650 720 725 730 750 -hsync -vsync
    Timing recommendation #2.... 1280x768 at 60Hz
    Modeline................ "1280x768" 79.010 1280 1350 1430 1650 768 773 778 798 -hsync -vsync

    Standard timings supported
    640 x 480 at 60Hz - IBM VGA
    800 x 600 at 60Hz - VESA
    1024 x 768 at 60Hz - VESA
    1280 x 720 at 60Hz - MJI
    1280 x 720 at 60Hz - VESA
    1280 x 768 at 60Hz - MJI

    Raw EDID base
    00: 00 FF FF FF FF FF FF 00 35 49 03 00 00 00 00 00
    10: 29 0D 01 03 8A 00 00 78 08 EE 91 A3 54 4C 99 26
    20: 0F 50 54 21 08 00 81 C0 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01
    30: 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 1D 00 72 51 D0 1E 20 46 50
    40: 55 00 00 00 00 00 00 18 DD 1E 00 72 51 00 1E 30
    50: 46 50 55 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 FD 00 2D
    60: 41 0A 96 08 00 0A 20 20 20 20 20 20 00 00 00 FC
    70: 00 56 50 2D 31 32 53 33 20 44 56 49 0A 20 00 EA

    Display adapter
    Adapter description......... NVIDIA GeForce 6600 GT
    Adapter device ID........... 0x014010DE
    Display settings............ 1280x720, 32bpp

    User/computer information
    Registered user name........ Paul
    Registered organization.....
    Network user name...........
    Network computer name....... HTPC
    Windows version ............ Windows XP
    Windows build .............. 5.01.2600 Service Pack 2
    Installation date .......... 1/18/2005 12:00:00 PM
     
  18. wendt

    wendt
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    Well, I don't really know what to think but maybe I could be a combination.
    Anyway I'll have to keep my fingers crossed that the new firmware is the key to the solution.

    Regarding firmware revision I will try to get that information but as you probably all know Marantz is very picky about things like this.
    I will try to persuade them to send me the new software and let me do the upgrade myself. This because I would prefer not to send the unit away. My previous S2 was away for repairs almost 3 months in total at several occasions. So I'd rather not send this away also. It's pretty much job to dismount the projector from the ceiling bracket, pack it in the box and drive away to the retailer every one and another month. :(

    Do you (or anybody else) know how to check what firmware version you have in the S3?

    PS. Thank you for the info about your S3. I will take a look at it as soon as I have some more time. DS.
     

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