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Marantz CD6000 KI SIG

Discussion in 'Hi-Fi Stereo Systems & Separates' started by tonytiger, Aug 5, 2002.

  1. tonytiger

    tonytiger
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    I want to improve my cd playback but i am unsure on what to buy.The Marantz cd6000 ki sig seems like a good player as does the cheaper cd6000.Will this be any better than using my DVD player ?

    Is it worth spending the extra and getting say cd17mkII?

    I use the analog out on the dvd player as i prefer the dac of the Sony.

    System:-

    Sony NS900v DVD Player
    Marantz sr6200 AV AMP GOLD
    Mission 773e
    Mission 77ds
    Mission m5c
    Monster mkII 400 interconnect
    Monster optical cable
    QED silver biwire front and centre ,normal for rears.

    Budget is £400 or i might stretch to the CD17.
     
  2. CJROSS

    CJROSS
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    £365 will buy you a TAG McLaren DAC 20 which used to retail @ £1250 - these are end of line stock, this added to your DVD-V will give you performance past the CD17 IMHO. Do a search above on "DAC" on this website and read the views on the Hifi Choice Website. I use one in tandem with my Pioneer 717 DVD-V player.

    http://forum.hifichoice.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=53

    Do a search on "DAC 20" over there, BTW I reckon to think that your current DVD-V player will make an excellent transport as it offers true 24/96 PCM via its digital output when using the proper discs (DAD). This IMO make it a wondefrul DVD-V device for sending a signal to an offboard DAC even when using CDs @ 16/44.1 Khz.

    A jump to the 6000 KI will be better than the 900 fro CD playback, Again a further jump to the CD 17 may not be that benefical you have to go to the CD 17 KI II @ £1200 to noticably improve on the 6000 KI IMHO. And I know a guy who has added the DAC 20 to his (Trichord modded) CD 17 KI and felt the DAC 20 improved its performance even further.

    I would urge you to look at this course of action due to the fact you have a good DVD-V transport in place already, all you will be doing buying another Int. CDP like the 6000/17 is buying the transport cost again, you are not really getting "Sound Per Pound" also have a read of the FAQ - DAC thread above.

    Again All IMHO & good luck in whatever you decide.
     
  3. tonytiger

    tonytiger
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    Thanks for the quick reply! That dac20 looks tempting i shall look into that.I never new that i could actually own some tag kit at that price!
     
  4. tonytiger

    tonytiger
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    Just contacted sales and they don't seem to have any left:confused:

    But they will contact me later to confirm this so fingers crossed.
     
  5. tonytiger

    tonytiger
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    Well i have placed a order and should have the dac20 next friday!Many thanks to CJRoss for the suggestions on the DAC20 this makes perfect sense instead of spending the money on a a cd player.

    Mind you i hope the Marantz SR6200 is good enough to match the dac20 ,i got this amp originally because the 2 channel music felt better to me than many av amps under 600 quid i paid 549 a while back.
     
  6. CJROSS

    CJROSS
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    Nice One Tony dude

    A few things to remember about the DAC 20 : connect it to your DVD-V using a coaxial cable, then run your ICs from the DAC to the Amps CD Line input, this will mean your listening to the DAC 20s CD decoding abilities rather than the Amps onboard DACs, then hook up your DVD-V to Amp with an optical cable for AV duties.

    Glad to hear that you have managed one down from TAG, I felt quite sorry for you there dude for a moment. Did they say how many they have left in stock ?

    Later dude, get back with any queries & your impressions of the piece of kit when you have listened to it. BTW one piece of advice try and source a couple of HDCD CDs between now & Friday, I would recommend the following (which are wuite easy to get a hold of) :

    Jeff Golubs : Do it Again, Eric Clapton : Reptile, Soundtrack : Oceans Eleven, to name 3 titles.

    BTW dude read more about HDCD at the offical website : www.hdcd.com

    Also check out the recordings available at this time, there will be something in there you like I guarantee. HDCD since Ive got to know it via the DAC 20 is a revelation IMHO.
     
  7. tonytiger

    tonytiger
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    Thanks for the info just a couple more questions:-

    "A few things to remember about the DAC 20 : connect it to your DVD-V using a coaxial cable"

    1.I use a monster optical cable for dd 5.1 and dts etc but i have a monster digital coax cable that i don't use will this be ok?I think its the datalink 100 model cost about 20quid?


    2.Where can i buy SACD or HDCD recordings from in the uk it seems Amazon don't have such a great range.Any places i can buy of the shelf?

    Thanks again for the help.
     
  8. CJROSS

    CJROSS
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    1. Yup that will be fine Tony, I use a Van Den Hul The Source £50 IC for mine and have compared a £20 QED cable, which coped quite favourably with the VDH. Its up to you dude, see what you think of it with the Monster coax in place.

    2. I would suggest you look at www.vivante.co.uk for their list, but most of their HDCDs are priced at £16.95 + £1.00 PP, now £18 to me for a CD is a joke, so what I generally do it look at the HDCD webpage they give a total A-Z recording run down here :

    http://www.hdcd.com/music_catalog/music.asp?action=AtoZ&alph=S&submit=1

    Then I try to get these online for a lot less. In Oceans Eleven case from Amazon for £11.99 + PP, £5 in my sky rocket. Same with Jeff Golub. You can pick up Eric Clapton on www.CDWow.com for £8.99, Armed with a A-Z list for HDCD recording is a great time to peruse a HMV/Virgin sale 3 for £20 offer etc. If you really want to a HDCD discs though and don’t mind paying the extra Viavnte are good (I use them for Vinyl and previously for DAD discs).

    Again HTHs
     
  9. tonytiger

    tonytiger
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    Just to let you know that may dac20 arrived today.Set the dac up using a qed sr75 coax with the dac on top of the dvd(Is this ok or should i put the dvd on top of the dac?).I have a soundorg av stand btw.

    All i can say its amazing.Its like listening to new cd's!!!I can now hear the instruments better etc.I am no expert but i love music (i have around 180 cd's) and this has made a big improvment.

    I have made an offer for a ARCAM FMJ A22 Amp.Which should then complete the package.This can be connected to the avamp and then the volume controlled from the avampfor movies - just what i wanted!!

    BTW does the dac need running in before it can really open up?
    Again thanks CJROSS for the advice you know your stuff!!!

    Later Dude.
     
  10. tonytiger

    tonytiger
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    btw the dac20 looks brand new to me.
     
  11. CJROSS

    CJROSS
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    I knew there was a big this Friday delivery of these Tony, I know of a few other dudes getting theirs today on the HFC forum as well its a good'un have no doubt.

    Tone excellent news, a few guys over on the HFC forum reckon that it is best left on for an hour before it is used, I think it sounds fine from the very first moment it is switched on.

    BTW did you get any HDCDs, Im currently listening to Roxy Musics - Flesh & Blood (Remastered) on HDCD and a couple of Chris Isaak HDCDs marvellous mate, give me a shout once you have the A22 in place, that is a cracker of an amp especially at the price that dude is selling it at.

    Later Tony

    Here is a nice close up view of the DAC 20 for anyone interested in it dudes of the AVForums :

    Tag McLaren DAC 20 http://www.tagmclaren.com/products/dac20/images/big.jpg
     
  12. tonytiger

    tonytiger
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    Thanks for the advice.Will be picking up the Oceans 11 soundtrack on Saturday.Not a lot else that i fancy from that HDCD catalog btw.

    Btw i will buying the amp from someone on the hifi choice forum.I am taking a bit of risk me thinks.I wont be able to pick the amp up due to work commitments so sending a cheque sounds iffy to me so i am still thinking about this.I was wondering what others have done when buying second hand goods.I have brought some interconnects which was ok but that was only 30 quid ,this is £600!!

    Tony.
     
  13. CJROSS

    CJROSS
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    Tony

    Ive known the dude selling that Amp for a couple of years on the HFC forum, so I would not worry dude (hence giving you the heads up in the first place) generally buying second hand goods you are our on a limb, but you can cover yourself by getting a phone number (generally non mobile) and an address of the seller, these can generally be checked.

    Tell us how you get on with the Amp and once you have fired up some HDCDs (BTW track 20 O 11 OST is stunning IMHO)

    Now over to convince Maximus what he is missing.
     
  14. tonytiger

    tonytiger
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    Just picked up the a22 from my local dealer they had a deal on managed to get it for 650 new! Seems they are being sold for 699 beacuse of the new a32 model.
     
  15. tonytiger

    tonytiger
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    Well what can i say? Installed the Arcam FMJ A22 ( i did have a 30min audtion and loved it).This amp does indeed crush the marantz in 2 channel stereo ,its night and day to say the least.

    Mainly being listen to some of my fave cd's:-

    Red Hot Chilli Peppers - By the way
    Jamiroquai - Synkronized , Funk odyssey
    Travis -The man who , The invisible band
    Coldplay- Parachutes
    The strokes - is this it?

    All i can say is the Arcam has made the above sound superior in every respect.Better bass better definintion better everything.I am very happy with it now.

    Just a couple questions:-


    1.I have the dac20 connected the cd line in on the arcam and the sony's analog out to the dvd line in on the arcam so i could do a direct compare .To my horror i cannot really tell the difference now!Before i got my arcam the dac20 did make a improvement. So i am little puzzled by this.


    2.The next upgrade i suspect will be the speakers does it never end?

    Just to recap my kit:-

    Sony ns900v + DAC20
    Mission 773e fronts qed silver bi-wire
    Mission m5c centre qed silver bi-wire
    Mission m7ds rears qed silver single
    No woofer yet (thinking about one)
    Arcam FMJ A22 amp connected to the fronts
    Marantz sr6200 powering the rest of the speakers
    dac20 (in)connect to the ns900v(out) via qed sr75 coax
    Monster interlink mk2 400 ic's connected from the dac20 to the cd line in on the arcam.
    some old ixos rca pairs from the dvd player direct into the dvd line ine of the arcam.
     
  16. CJROSS

    CJROSS
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    Tony

    Personally I could tell the difference going from a £800 CDP and the improvement was very noticable with the DAC 20 in place, in all seriousness dude if your not hearing an improvement or difference from the DAC 20 compared to your NSV900 I would sell the DAC 20, you will be able to offload it 2nd hand for the same price you paid. FWIW the 900 is a good CD player but IMO the DAC 20 is in a different league. But its your ears that count dude so go with what they are telling you. Are you comparing the 900 in SACD mode? You should try a couple of SACD recordings to compare what you think of overall sound in comparison to the DAC 20 IMO. Another thing to check is have you got the NSV900 outputting its digital signal in PCM mode for music, if its is set for bitstream (for 5.1 DD AV) that could be making the DAC 20 sound similar, I have my DVD Transport set to PCM output at all times (I only have a 2 ch amp so dont need 5.1) it is a much better type of digital signal for music reproduction via an offboard DAC IMO.

    One other point your music listed above whilst being very good does not look like the best recorded stuff out there dude Ie it is mostly indie orientated, JKs stuff for instance is renowned for being quite compressed sounding (I have all his albums too) The Strokes is a very basic stripped down rock recording, Ive not heard By the Way but the Peppers Californication is one of the worst recordings Ive heard in years.

    HTHs and of course dude All IMHO
     
  17. tonytiger

    tonytiger
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    Thanks for the reply again.The dac20 did make a difference when i was using the av amp and i am still convinced of this.The dac20 must be better!I only have one sacd (came with the dvd player) and most of the music on there i don't like.Sacd does indeed sound very good ,but i have no way of a direct comparsion.

    Anyway the ns900 has the option to set digital output on/off with options to set dolby digital /d-pcm ,dts/d-pcm and mpeg/m-pcm.The last option sets the pcm ouput - 44khz/16bit and 96hz/24bit.I have the latter set to 96/24 all the time.I don't need to set the dd and dts as that is for dvd or do i ?Do i need to set all options to pcm?

    Music wise maybe not the best recordings (I have pretty poor taste in music).So i need to get some quality software ! I haven't got the oceans 11 yet not had time ,i may pop out at dinner time but work is a bit busy as per usual.You can tell from my list above the type of music i like ,i also listen to some dance music ,Chemical brothers etc etc.

    Need to go now my boss i coming!!!
     
  18. CJROSS

    CJROSS
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    Looking at your setting there Tony, you should be trying to get a pure PCM signal on its own for CD playback, Im not sure what the d-pcm stand for Digital PCM?, there is 2 varieties of signal (forgetting DTS) with DVD-V ie Bitstream which I assume the Dolby Digital is above but this is different from D-PCM do these option toggle between these 2 ie Dolby Digital / D-pcm ? if not I think your DVD player autodetects which type of disc it is endoded with, ie you are watching a DVD V with a 16/48 PCM track it will select D-PCM and vice versa a 5.1 DD Bitstream DVD-V will automatically go through the Dolby Digital which is bitstream.

    Remember what I said about DTS always have that switched off the analogue conversion down by a DAC to a DTS signal fries speaker tweeters very nicely.

    So the setting I would opt for would be dolby digital/d-pcm and as you have done at 24/96. These are the settings I use my DVD player at – Linear PCM @ 96 Khz. So if you can set all output to PCM then change back to Bitstream when watching a DVD-V IMO.

    I have all those album you mention dude apart from By the Way, you want some very well recorded Dance music ? you could do a lot worse than checking out :

    St. Germain – Tourist
    Rinocerose – Installation Sonore
    Zero 7 – Simple Things
    William Orbit – Strange Cargo 4 Hinterland
    Talvin Singh – Ha
    Orb – Cydonia
    Orbital - Brown Album or any other album of theirs
    Anything by : Thievery Corporation

    All excellent recordings IMO.
     
  19. tonytiger

    tonytiger
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    As soon as you switch on digital out you have those options ie

    You can switch between dolby digital or D-pcm

    The same for the dts signal.

    I will try setting everthing to pcm.I was thinking that the player autodects anyhow and the above only applies to dvd.The dvd sound setup menu looks something like this:-



    digital output : On/Off
    Dolby digital : Dolby Digtial/D-PCM
    DTS : DTS/D-PCM
    MPEG : Mpeg/D-PCM
    PCM : 44/16 or 96/24

    I think all the lastest sony dvd players all have this setup.I have the following setup all the time:-


    digital output : On
    Dolby digital : Dolby Digtial
    DTS : DTS
    MPEG : D-PCM
    PCM : 96/24

    I need to confirm the when i get home btw.

    Again thanks for your help.I still think the DAC20 is going to be brilliant and it must be better then the output of the dvd player.Yes its cd output is ok but the dac should be a lot better.
    Tony.
     
  20. CJROSS

    CJROSS
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    Right Tony this is a little clearer nowm your set up below should read this (IMO)

    When listening to CDs

    Digital output : On
    Dolby digital : D-PCM
    DTS : Off
    MPEG : D-PCM
    PCM : 96/24

    When

    When watching & listening to DVD-V (DD 5.1 & DTS)

    Digital output : On
    Dolby digital : Dolby Digital (This means 5.1 48 khz Bitstream)
    DTS : DTS
    MPEG : MPeg
    PCM : 96/24

    HTHs
     
  21. tonytiger

    tonytiger
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    I will try the above settings,although you cannot turn of DTS it only allows you to set it to D-PCM. IT does state that the dts/mpeg/DD5.1 only applies to dvd video . .It seems that the manual does not cover this in great detail, or might be a just a case of RTFM.:blush:


    Anyway my hi-fi is starting to shape up and i have also taken deilvery of some qed silver spirial ic's for the dac to the cd line of the FMJ a22 so this should make a nice improvment.(Brought them second hand from here !!)

    Anyway again thanks for your help CJROSS!!

    Later Dude.
     
  22. tonytiger

    tonytiger
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    Ok Spent a about hour testing the settings for the digital output this made no difference to the sound.I think the ns900v autodetects the type of disc anyhow.I tested the sound further with a couple more cd's --semisonic,letfield etc and i still cannot tell the difference.Checking the front of the dac appears to be ok ,have the nice new blue led on and the dac locks to a 44khz siginal.I think maybe the unit is defective although looks brand new.I have a friend who will try it on his Pioneer 737 (same as yours i think) and will pitch it against his £500 cdp.

    Later dude.
     
  23. mconn

    mconn
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    Hi,

    I am thinking of buying a tag dac 20.My soon to be pioneer 656a would have to act as a cd player as i have no cd player.
    Would the dac 20 and dvd player give a good increase in sound quality or will the dac [i think they have one] in dvd players improve in time to dac 20 quality.Will a dac do anything for the new audio formats SACD and DVD-A or will a new dac be needed for these?
    My other kit is a marantz 5200 amp and b&w 602s3 speakers.
    Sorry for the long question.Thanks for any info or thoughts.

    mconn
     
  24. Matt F

    Matt F
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    I would say that the DAC20 would bring about a useful increase in sound quality over using the internal DAC within the Pioneer.

    As for DVD-A and SACD, I'm afraid the DAC20 won't do anything with these formats as the decoding of DVD-A and SACD can presently only be done within the player itself - there is no digital output of DVD-A and SACD for the DAC20 to deal with (and even if there was, it wouldn't be able to do anything with it).

    Matt.
     
  25. tonytiger

    tonytiger
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    It seems my mate could not tell the difference also.He tested it on his pioneer 717 and a micromega cd player.Lots of different music inc REM.He tried both as transports and they seem to peform the same.He tested the ears on some of his friends and they came to the same conclusion.I can't remember his setup but he is into hifi and has a good mid-range system not a avamp btw.


    I have given up now thinking:-

    1.We are both death
    2.The unit is faulty
    3.The Tech is old? (The dac20 was released 4 years ago)

    I want to keep the Sony DVP-NS900v now and maybe upgrade to the new flagship model that has been announced.Depends on the price of course!This maybe a better cd player and sacd as i will be buying some sacd's soon.


    Anyway i think that dac20 is a lovely bit of kit ,but it is just not doing it for me i'm afraid.The best thing for anyone thinking about buying one is to maybe borrow one first to see if it works in there setup.

    Now i must go and sell it.
     
  26. CJROSS

    CJROSS
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    Tony

    Sorry to hear of your experience with the DAC 20, quite unusual from what Ive heard on this baord & over at the HFC forum, in fact you mention your mate with the 717, well Ive added it quite successfully to that player & another guy Iknow has done the same. At least your happy with the 900, BTW you may know that TAG have bumped up the price of the DAC 20 now to £450 so you should get what you paid for it on the 2nd hand market.

    BTW here are some links to what the DAC 20 is generally felt to be like by those who have got one in the last few months :

    http://forum.hifichoice.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=712
    http://forum.hifichoice.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=512

    Anyway good luck dude
     

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