Making of DVD using canopus & Ulead

Discussion in 'Camcorders, Action Cams & Video Making Forum' started by scooby do, Jan 24, 2008.

  1. scooby do

    scooby do
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    Guys probably not going about this the correct way but it has worked for me albeit very slow. I record by lads football matches (15-20 mins per half) and have succesfully created a DVD using Ulead movie maker 9. I use canopus to convert from AVI to DVD vobs(constant bit rate) then load these into moviemaker. I can get 2 games onto 1 DVD. I end up specifying a DVD folder 8.6GB within moviemaker then end up shrinking to single layer using DVD shrink! This whole process is taking rather a long time as you can imagine but time is not too big an issue. Recently I have the problem where the DVD's start of ok but then start going jerky and out of synch. Is this because the bit rate I am setting is too high or perhaps un-matched between canopus & Ulead. Ulead is the part that is taking many hours although the DVD's are compliant from canopus it seems that moviemaker is re encoding (could this be as the bit rates are not matched)? Also the VOBS created by moviemaker will start to play ok then go jerky when played back using VLC but if I use mediaplayer classic they look fine!


    Cheers
     
  2. Andy98765

    Andy98765
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    What make/model Camcorder have you and does it have Firewire out / i-Link / IEEE1394?
     
  3. scooby do

    scooby do
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    Yep firewire, panasonic DS30B or something like a good 9 years old but does the job. Sorry the canopus solution is not hardware software only if that is confusing the issue.


    Cheers
     
  4. Andy98765

    Andy98765
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    Well with my Firewire attached Camcorder to PC I use Adobe Premiere Elements and from downloading to editing to making DVD is all contained within the same software package. Even Nero 7 or 8 will do that.
    Why use two pieces of software.
     
  5. scooby do

    scooby do
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    I like the results from canopus but will have a play with Ulead on its own. Just really wondered why it was going wrong be an inquisitive person. The advanantage of of canopus is that you can set up a watch folder and it will convert the raw avi to your chosen format/compression settings when you chuck it into the watched folder.
     
  6. redsox_mark

    redsox_mark
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    It is OK to use more than one application, but you want to avoid re-encoding. With your current flow, both Ulead (I assume this is Ulead Video Studio) and DVD Shrink will be re-encoding.

    You can either do everything in Ulead (you should be able to set the quality settings so it creates the correct size DVD the first). Or, if you want to use Canopus (e.g. it may be better at encoding to MPEG2), then generally you would not make .VOB files at that stage, but would render the DV .avi to .mpg (and possibly also .ac3 for audio), then feed these into Ulead.
     
  7. scooby do

    scooby do
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    Mark funny you should say that I am just batch converting to mpeg not sure if I needed it to be elementary stream or program stream. This is creating wav files as well, will Ulead cope with this and tie the two up? I can see me getting into this so perhaps a PC upgrade is on the cards. Currently running a Xp 5000+ on a really poor Hp motherboard. The subsystem is not very good as It take 2 hrs to convert a 4gb file to zip, on my OC athlon xp3200 on an abit motherboard only 50 minutes! All very intresting stuff.
     
  8. redsox_mark

    redsox_mark
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    It depends on what Ulead wants/needs. I've trialled Ulead Studio in the past but I don't use it so I don't know. That is the key, figure out what Ulead Studio will accept without re-encoding.

    I use Sony Vegas and it's sister app DVD Architect. I create the elementary stream .mpg and .ac3 (in my case) in Vegas, then DVD Architect will not re-encode these.
     
  9. scooby do

    scooby do
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    Thanks as always Mark for sharing your experiences
     
  10. senu

    senu
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    Actually Mark makes sense
    You should not go from VOB.. Mpeg 2 to DV AVI them back to mpeg2.. You risk poor quality video and outof synch audio
    Start with DV AVI, import this into UleadVideo Studio then Edit and out put
    as
    DV AVI
    or
    Mpeg2
    or a finished DVD ( VOB ect)
    Ulead does not want an mpeg2 insofar as version 10 and 11 smart render mpeg2 ..Ver 9 not quite as well.
    However although "smart renderrig" aims to edit mpeg without unnesseary re rendering ( and quality loss) you could have varying result and are best of usinf DV AVI in the first instance
    You can actually get Ulead movie Factory and import your edited DV AVI or mpeg2 to make a DVD .. It will not reeencode mpeg2 in the same way as DVD architect will not reeencode from Vegas ( this saves time and preserves quality)
    The issue of using VBR or CBR is best lleft to you as long as you know why you wish to have that degree of control over the encoding
    One thing to avoid though is approaching maximum encoding bitrates
    Canopus Procoder ( or Express I dont know which you have) should be used only after your editing of the DV AVI not before if you dont wish to use UleadVideo Studios built in encoder. There is nothing to stop you from trying both but your suspect quality and time spent is due to your current workflow which kind of defies conventional logic but seems to have worked for you:)

    As for Elementary or program streams. I would stick to program streams as the audio tends to be tightly integrated. Elementary streams are best used if you don't have an audio encoder in the DVD authoring application capable of outputting your particular preffered audio format for the DVD
     
  11. scooby do

    scooby do
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    Well that really helps as well. Have been messing around and as you say .m2p is the setting of choice as the audio is still in the stream. What really makes sense is use Ulead to do the cutting and effects then use canopus to change to VOBS will give this a go. Many ways to skin a cat I suppose but the less conversions should equal better quaility and faster time. Currently converting to AVI's at once with 2 sessions on canopus and they are zipping along at 1.8 speed at 0.98 which is not bad but I am not using mastering setting just for speed.

    Thanks again for your help and I will report back
     
  12. senu

    senu
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    Less conversions especially from compressed to less compressed will save time and quality

    Dont use Canopus to change to VOB as it may be reencoded.
    Just make DVD ready mpeg2s and let the DVD authoring software convert to VOB ( which it will more than likely do without any rerencoding)
    The issue with VOBs is that as part of the DVD structure they may be part of a menu item , and tend to have a maximum size
    This will make reeccoding occur if a menu is created .
    or
    If in trying to maintain the size and structure the ready made VOBs have to be split.
    Somehow even if this happens with mpeg2 files ( rather than VOB) it doesnt result in reeencoding
    As such mpeg2 should be your output target.
    Vobs are best left to be created by the Likes of Movie Factory , DVD Architect ect
     
  13. scooby do

    scooby do
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    Ok done it using canopus to output m2p files and 1hr 20 mins took ulead 20 minutes to do rather than the 5 hrs of before! Still not sure if it is doing any encoding but it is a massive improvement in time. Will try the Avi route next but not tonight!

    Thanks again
     
  14. redsox_mark

    redsox_mark
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    Sounds like you are getting there.

    To sum up, in going from DV to DVD, the following logical steps have to happen:

    - You need to edit your DV video
    - You need to encode/render out to DVD compliant (MPG) files
    - You need to author a DVD, creating a DVD-Video structure (with VOB Files).

    Exactly how you do this depends on your software and desired flow. For example, you could apply your edits to the DV video and save this as a new DV .avi file, and use this for your DVD (the authoring software would then do the encode/author in one step). Or, you can render to .MPG, and use this in the authoring step.

    You are using Ulead to do the initial edits. You want to use Canopus to do the encoding to MPG. I’m still not clear what software you are using for the DVD authoring step? Which software do you use to design your menus and burn your DVD? Are you going back to Ulead for that?
     
  15. scooby do

    scooby do
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    Correct I do use Ulead for authoring. Where I get confused is the editing part, I thought this is where the menu's are built. I use the template in Ulead as they have a football template, this is when I am editing. Seems like from what you say I should just edit out he unwanted bits, into the AVI then use canopus to create one mpeg program stream then build the DVD within Ulead. I have deffinately being doing it back to front and upside down but was happy with the results, hopefully they should be even better when doing it in the correct order!
     
  16. redsox_mark

    redsox_mark
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    The terminology can get confusing. Generally video editing is editing the video itself - deleting bits, adding text, maybe music, etc. DVD authoring is creating your menus. Some applications (like Ulead Studio) do both in the same program; others the DVD authoring is a separate program.

    Seems like from what you say I should just edit out he unwanted bits, into the AVI then use canopus to create one mpeg program stream then build the DVD within Ulead.

    Yes, this is how I would do it (assuming that Canopus was better at MPEG encoding.... otherwise I'd do it all in Ulead).
     
  17. senu

    senu
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    I would suggest that if you must use Canopus Procoder to encode from DV AVI to mpeg,
    You use Movie Factory instead of Video Studio to author the DVD
    You save on time , and keep quality by not returning to Video Studio once you are done with editing
    Otherwise just let Video Studio do it all( as it can) You may find that its encoding quality is not bad
     
  18. scooby do

    scooby do
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    Ok done it all within ulead and the results were not as good as my botched attempts with canopus ulead then DVD Shrink. Trying again with a different variation which is canopus to m2p then U lead for authoring. Will let you know. My set up is critical as I have a sony KDS 55a2000 which is probably miles to big for the quality of my camera
     
  19. senu

    senu
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    Ulead Movie Factory for authoring.. not VideoStudio
    Brian 110507 is the Video Studio man if you wish to get the very best out of it

    A bit more on that
    Although unlike you, I use DV AVI as starting material,
    For video encoding: I also have Canopus procoder 2, and have tried TMPGenc. Cinemacraft basic and MainConcepts Mpeg Encoder

    For Editing and integrated DVD authoring: Pinnacle Studio Adobe Premiere Elements, Ulead VS10 and Sony Vegas ( Movie Studio and full version as well as Pro Show gold for outputting Slideshows to mpeg2

    For Standalone DVD Authoring : I use Ulead Movie Factory , Movie Workshop ( much better) and DVD Architect

    There is no right or wrong way but it is important to realise the concept of logical workflow Ie
    1) Start with best quality material DV AVI in this case
    2) Realise that DV AVI is not only the best starting material, it is also virtually unaffected by multiple rerenders and reencoding. Mpeg is affected and each subsequent copy will exhibit generational loss of quality ( a bit like copying a dubbed audio cassette tape and comparing that to copying a CD which is almost identical to the original)
    3) Avoid converting from DV AVI to mpeg until you've finished the editing
    4) Definitely don't convert from mpeg to DV AVI unless you cannot edit mpeg as mpeg.

    5) Leave the creation of VOBs to the DVD authoring software ( unless you are absolutely certain you can import them as such%2
     
  20. scooby do

    scooby do
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    One last question (I hope) canopus gives the option of VBR (2pass), CBR (constant bit rate) and CQ (constant quality). The have a max bit rate of 9100 & 9100 & 9800 respectively. Am I correct in assuming that CQ 9800 will be the best option but is this above the 6mps DVD standard and could have compatability problems. This is all assuming size of DVD is not an issue, looking for best quality here.

    Thanks again
     
  21. redsox_mark

    redsox_mark
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    The DVD standard calls for a max bitrate of 10.08 Mbps (10,080 Kbps). That includes audio, so typically 9800 or so is max possible for video, assuming the audio is compressed.

    Whilst all DVD players can handle these rates, if there are a lot of errors on the disc then pushing the limits of the max rate may bring compatibility issues, some players may not be able to keep up.

    If using rates of 8000+, you should get excellent quality regardless of CBR or VBR. (not sure what CQ is).
     

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