Lyngdorf vs Dynaudio speakers placement recommandations

daquiksta

Standard Member
Hello,

I finally setup my system with Lyngdorf 2170 and Dynaudio Special 40´s. I’m questioning myself regarding speakers positioning. Lyngdorf recommends to put them close and aligned to the back wall (5cm with bass reflex). In comparaison Dynaudio is more traditional with speakers separated by at least two meters and oriented to the listener with a nice triangle.

I ran RoomPerfect but will do it again soon. Which one should I use? Any Lyngdorf users here who already experienced that?

Thanks!
 

Orobas

Well-known Member
Hello,

I finally setup my system with Lyngdorf 2170 and Dynaudio Special 40´s. I’m questioning myself regarding speakers positioning. Lyngdorf recommends to put them close and aligned to the back wall (5cm with bass reflex). In comparaison Dynaudio is more traditional with speakers separated by at least two meters and oriented to the listener with a nice triangle.

I ran RoomPerfect but will do it again soon. Which one should I use? Any Lyngdorf users here who already experienced that?

Thanks!
One of the reasons for this is down to Lyngdorf's internals and its RoomPerfect.... it can "tune" a speaker directly in effect... you couldnt place a special40 that close to the wall with the amp i have for example...

The Lyngdorf will run test sounds and stuff and then listen to the speaker as it does so.. and then it will adjust its own internals accordingly based on the feedback, echo, bass, treble.. until it has reached what it deems to be the "ideal" sound based on its software

Best way to find this out is to run the RoomPerfect as mentioned.. then adjust the positioning of the 40's till your ears are happy :)
 

daquiksta

Standard Member
You’re right, I’ll have to run RP with Lyngdorf positioning.
First, I oriented them to my listening spot and I don’t hear so much a difference with RoomPerfect applied (more change using Global RP settings which sounds logical). I guess I’ll do some testing over the coming week. All feedback are appreciated and would save my time :)
 

Orobas

Well-known Member
You’re right, I’ll have to run RP with Lyngdorf positioning.
First, I oriented them to my listening spot and I don’t hear so much a difference with RoomPerfect applied (more change using Global RP settings which sounds logical). I guess I’ll do some testing over the coming week. All feedback are appreciated and would save my time :)
The Lyngdorf will listen to the speakers... and then adjust its own sound and timings until it feels that it (the Lyngdorf) has the best sound possible in terms of feedback, timing and frequency that it can send to the speaker.. this does not mean that it is for your ears though hence the experimentation.. you can try as per manual.. and then re-run at a further distance etc etc.. or ... just run as per dynaudio and do not use RoomPerfect and eyeball the settings manually
 

DT79

Well-known Member
Room correction rewrites the rules on speaker placement.

Lyngdorf‘s advice to place the speakers against the wall has a huge advantage in eliminating any delayed reflection of lower frequencies off the front wall which really helps the bass to sound tight and punchy and maximise the depth that your speakers can achieve. With RP to eliminate any excess bass resulting from the close placement you get the best of both worlds.

Some people have found that having the speakers close to the wall affects the depth of the soundstage, so some experimentation may be necessary and ultimately it’s about what you prefer.
 

Ugg10

Distinguished Member
Also, typically the advice for programming dsp is to always subtract if you can, adding to the volume at certain frequencies can sound odd, your ears are more sensitive to peaks than troughs. So putting the speaker close to the wall where the low end is at its maximum allows the room perfect to work at its best. Just a guess but......
 

ashenfie

Well-known Member
I guess it's perspective, but I would want to use the min. room correction and place the speakers to get the best results possible, then apply correction on top.

So speaker 2m apart and .5m from the walls. Sitting position greater than 2m. You can then move things around, if your speakers are 3m apart you will need to sit further back, over 3m, you get the idea. The further away you sit the less you would point the speakers inward, the idea is to get the best stereo effect.

Once you have the best placement, consider the port bungs to tune the bass (bungs in = less bass). Then run your room correction. if you see large rises in bass then you might want to re-visit placement and the bungs. Large drop in bass (nulls) are more complex to deal with, the room correction can't fix them, so placement/room treatment is your only option here.

This should give you the best sound, trying to use room correction to pull up null past around 6db, tends to stress the speakers and cause surrounding frequency to be poor also, rather than improve anything.
 

DT79

Well-known Member
.5m from the walls.
If you end up there after experimenting and prefer that position then fine, but as I explained above there is a very good reason why Lyngdorf recommend what they do.
consider the port bungs to tune the bass (bungs in = less bass). Then run your room correction. if you see large rises in bass then you might want to re-visit placement and the bungs.
This is just plain wrong, you’ll hobble your speakers and never hear them at their best. The room correction will remove any excess bass, why would you place a limit on it yourself before you even start?
 

daquiksta

Standard Member
Thanks for all your replies. I will have to test both and I'll redo it first with Lyngdorf recommendation as I am more basic right now.

Is it possible to save different RP corrections with the 2170? I might then marked the floor and just switched to test which one is best to my ears.
 

ashenfie

Well-known Member
If you end up there after experimenting and prefer that position then fine, but as I explained above there is a very good reason why Lyngdorf recommend what they do.

This is just plain wrong, you’ll hobble your speakers and never hear them at their best. The room correction will remove any excess bass, why would you place a limit on it yourself before you even start?
I don't see this as hobble anything. Manufactures produce speakers with a flat a Bass response with supplied bungs inserted, this allows improved speakers performance figures on paper and the listener to reduce bass response in room.

Think. of it this way. A 10db null might become a 7db null with the bungs in which with room correction may become 1db null, thats not audible. Room correction alone would give you a 4db null which is audible.

Anyway try with and without bungs and see what you like best as there is no wrong or wright here, just what works for you.
 

DT79

Well-known Member
Thanks for all your replies. I will have to test both and I'll redo it first with Lyngdorf recommendation as I am more basic right now.

Is it possible to save different RP corrections with the 2170? I might then marked the floor and just switched to test which one is best to my ears.
You can have a 'second speaker set-up' you could use that to try out a different config and be able to switch back to the main speaker set-up if you prefer it. I think you can also back up settings on the 2170, but check the manual.
 

Orobas

Well-known Member
Thanks for all your replies. I will have to test both and I'll redo it first with Lyngdorf recommendation as I am more basic right now.

Is it possible to save different RP corrections with the 2170? I might then marked the floor and just switched to test which one is best to my ears.
Well.. i think @DT79 is the best one here to continue to converse with on this thread due to actually having a Special 40 and the 2170. Glad we got you on the right path at least and hope between the 2 of you that you can get these 40's fired up and right :)
 

DT79

Well-known Member
Well.. i think @DT79 is the best one here to continue to converse with on this thread due to actually having a Special 40 and the 2170. Glad we got you on the right path at least and hope between the 2 of you that you can get these 40's fired up and right :)
It'll be cracking when he gets them on song!
 

daquiksta

Standard Member
Well.. i think @DT79 is the best one here to continue to converse with on this thread due to actually having a Special 40 and the 2170. Glad we got you on the right path at least and hope between the 2 of you that you can get these 40's fired up and right :)
Both feedback are appreciated and both have values to me. I'll do my best to apply and test Lyngdorf way and another one more traditional especially if I can save both corrections. I do love this forum of jedi experts, it's so valuable for a noob like I am.
 

Orobas

Well-known Member
It'll be cracking when he gets them on song!
Oh i totally agree.. I can cheat to a degree with my setup as its hooked up to my pc and the thx soundcard so i can shape the sound quite a bit... but to be honest.. nothing beats the advice quite like someone having the same setup as the op asking the question :)
 

3rdignis

Active Member

3rdignis

Active Member
Lyngdorf speakers are quite thin and therefore more suited to on wall positioning.
 

Orobas

Well-known Member
Lyngdorf speakers are quite thin and therefore more suited to on wall positioning.
we're discussing the big ol Dynaudio Special 40 standmounter! not the lyngdorf speakers :)
 

3rdignis

Active Member
I tried the against wall position but have settled on a standard position that measures flatter.
 

TB Rich

Active Member
I don't see this as hobble anything. Manufactures produce speakers with a flat a Bass response with supplied bungs inserted, this allows improved speakers performance figures on paper and the listener to reduce bass response in room.

Think. of it this way. A 10db null might become a 7db null with the bungs in which with room correction may become 1db null, thats not audible. Room correction alone would give you a 4db null which is audible.

Anyway try with and without bungs and see what you like best as there is no wrong or wright here, just what works for you.
Completely agree, using bungs does not hobble the speaker 😂 it makes no sense that it would! You're simply limiting the energy from the port which is potentially exciting a room mode. It's really as simple as measure with/without and see the effect. Common 'audiophile' (aka probably myth) logic is that plugging ports improves bass speed, not sure if that's true but I've read of the difference between ported and non-ported subs and how it effects group delay. GD is touted as being better on sealed subs and creates faster more accurate bass as a result....so by (some potentially dodgy) extrapolation then if there was an argument to be had...then plugging the ports is likely to improve accuracy and quality! Well, at any rate we're certainly not talking hobbled speaker either way around!!!

Traditional best practice is to ensure the foundation of placement (including bungs in/out) is optimised before applying DSP, for the obvious reason being to require the least amount of DSP as possible from impacting the signal. The less you ask of DSP then the less artefacts across the whole frequency spectrum there will be.

RoomPerfect changes somewhat the positional aspects with respect to it's wall placement concept, which is an interesting one and one I think is potentially an excellent idea. Speakers in the usual 1-3 feet away from a wall (back and side) are all suffering from SBIR, usually manifesting in a null somewhere between 80-150hz. My own setup is suffering at about 100hz from this.
So the RP way therefore mitigates this, but you of course need the cleverness of it to manipulate the signal to make sure it still sounds right (hence why you wouldn't likely want to do this with a regular 2ch amp). And given the lowest 2 octaves represent I think something like 60% of the human auditory response to judge sound quality (some physcoacoustics study I came across once), then with RP's approach to basically nailing bass, it just might be the way to go all things considered.
My biggest gripe is I think speakers flat against the wall just looks wrong from a visual standpoint.
 

DT79

Well-known Member
My comment about ‘hobbling’ the speakers has been misunderstood. I meant that in the context of applying room correction.

The speakers are a ported design. If they were intended to be used without a port then they would have been designed as sealed (an equally valid design choice, but not the one made here).

Bunging the ports is a compromise for situations where there is too much bass In a given position. If you are going to use room correction, and especially Room Perfect which has the USP of preserving the original sound of your speakers, why would you alter their sound yourself first? If there’s excess bass then RP will remove it.

Now obviously this is all about personal taste. If you ran RP on un-bunged speakers and felt the bass was still too much and then you tried again with the ports bunged and preferred it then fair enough, but bunging the speakers as the starting point is just illogical.
 
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daquiksta

Standard Member
Setup a second RP with speakers as closed to the wall as possible. 20 measurements later, I will give it a try for few days and will see. But having speakers this way is a bit weird visually. @TB Rich is right :)
 

DT79

Well-known Member
Setup a second RP with speakers as closed to the wall as possible. 20 measurements later, I will give it a try for few days and will see. But having speakers this way is a bit weird visually. @TB Rich is right :)
It’s not so bad for me (visually) because mine are on the edges of a window bay.
 

TB Rich

Active Member
If you ran RP on un-bunged speakers and felt the bass was still too much and then you tried again with the ports bunged and preferred it then fair enough, but bunging the speakers as the starting point is just illogical.
Just wrong, I’m not sure you understand DSP and target curves. DSP will aim to hit a target curve, irrespective of ports open or closed, and clearly if ports are open it’s going to need to use more aggressive filters to achieve that target.
If your personal preference is for more bass, then you use a suitable target curve with that in mind, and yes you may well then need ports open to achieve it.

It’s really quite simple, get the foundations of setup as accurate as you can first and you require less of DSP to fix things, which creates less problems and artefacts across the whole frequency range. And that statement is not to say ports open or closed are correct, simply that it is situational.

Plugging ports creates an obvious amplitude reduction, meaning the DSP needs less severe correction in the frequency domain. Additionally due to the reduced amplitude of the plugged ports there will of course be less boundary interaction/SBIR problems - that would otherwise also require DSP to work harder in the phase domain too (trying to control 2 sources of standing waves).
(I have already made comment about RP and wall positioning in my previous post to mitigate SBIR, in the avoidance of doubt I believe it’s very interesting idea).

Regardless of the chosen DSP, do what you can to mitigate problems with position and setup first, and ask DSP to do less manipulation later. I really can not fathom how that could be conceived as illogical.
 

DT79

Well-known Member
Just wrong, I’m not sure you understand DSP and target curves. DSP will aim to hit a target curve, irrespective of ports open or closed, and clearly if ports are open it’s going to need to use more aggressive filters to achieve that target.
If your personal preference is for more bass, then you use a suitable target curve with that in mind, and yes you may well then need ports open to achieve it.

It’s really quite simple, get the foundations of setup as accurate as you can first and you require less of DSP to fix things, which creates less problems and artefacts across the whole frequency range. And that statement is not to say ports open or closed are correct, simply that it is situational.

Plugging ports creates an obvious amplitude reduction, meaning the DSP needs less severe correction in the frequency domain. Additionally due to the reduced amplitude of the plugged ports there will of course be less boundary interaction/SBIR problems - that would otherwise also require DSP to work harder in the phase domain too (trying to control 2 sources of standing waves).
(I have already made comment about RP and wall positioning in my previous post to mitigate SBIR, in the avoidance of doubt I believe it’s very interesting idea).

Regardless of the chosen DSP, do what you can to mitigate problems with position and setup first, and ask DSP to do less manipulation later. I really can not fathom how that could be conceived as illogical.

If we were talking about Dirac for example then yes, what you say is true, but RoomPerfect doesn’t aim to hit a pre-defined target curve. It derives a custom target curve for your speakers by comparing the initial ‘focus’ measurement to the room characteristics it derives from the subsequent random room measurements, so anything you do to change the response of your speakers before measuring will directly affect the end result.

In that context bunging the ports is an arbitrary measure that will unnecessarily limit the maximum potential bass response. RP is more than capable of removing any excess bass and producing a fabulous result.
 

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