Lyngdorf Room Perfect knowledge sharing & troubleshooting

I think those using DSP "room correction" should get their brains into gear and logically work out what's actually going on, rather than accept RP as some form of magic that makes music sound superficially better
How can a sound be superficially better? It either is or it isn't. It's all very well saying use your brain, but the reason that a lot of people like it is because it has easily ironed out issues in their room and given them better sounding audio.
My room is an audio nightmare. Glass at both ends and in eved skylights, an opening next to one speaker but not the other and the speakers on the long side of the room, only 3m from the MLP, which is on a couch up against a wall. I can assure you that, having tried amps from Marantz, Cyrus and Rega the Lyngdorf, with RP and the ability to micro manage the settings is the only thing that's sorted things out.
So, it's not just blind acceptance, but a belief in very clever tech that's clearly doing what it was designed to. You not liking it/it not working for you is absolutely no reason to evangelize against it, which is what this feels like.
 
When we spoke at the time, you said you had placed the mic behind the speakers because RoomPerfect recommend capturing the whole room. Their instruction and any I have ever given never took into account situation where the speakers that were placed in the middle of a room so the mistake is understandable.

This placement or a faulty mic are the only ways I can account for the reduction in hf that you describe. I;’ve never had it in the hundreds of rooms/systems I’ve used it in.

If a signal is in the analogue domain, adding EQ will impact on sound quality.

If a signal is in the digital domain, it will not.

I’m very happy for you or anyone else to come and put this to the test with the 10 different systems I have on demonstration. Its extremely easy to hear how much more transparent these systems are.
 
As Peter Walker said "the ideal amplifier is a straight wire with gain"
That statement is fine but it is a statement isolation. To listen you also need speakers and a room to place them in and that is where the issues start to happen - not in the amplifier. You seem to cherry pick your arguments without considering the wider issues. I have a room that no system has ever sounded even remotely listenable until RP sorted it out. Few people have a room that is acoustically perfect because we also have to fill them with items that make it liveable.
 
How can a sound be superficially better? It either is or it isn't. It's all very well saying use your brain, but the reason that a lot of people like it is because it has easily ironed out issues in their room and given them better sounding audio.
I've given your posting a "Like" because you are right. I've always accepted that those with certain problems, particularly those using multiple speakers will find that the sound appears to be improved with DSP. No argument from me. However your first sentence "How can a sound be superficially better?" needs looking at. Even though the sound may seem better, there may well be a loss in ultimate sound quality - by this I mean that certain music generates a feel-good factor, a sparkle, goose-bumps or whatever you like to describe the effect that live music often offers, even if played in acoustically appallingly bad venues such as pubs or even outdoors. This sparkle is generated by the upper frequencies (that don't need DSP) but in an amp with DSP these frequencies are nevertheless subjected to the processor that the bass is often improved by to acoount for poor room acoustics or (probably more often) poor speakers or poor speaker setup.

I sympathise with your room difficulties - take a look at mine and see if you think your problems are actually worse than mine! I've worked hard to minimise the adverse effects of acres of curved glass walls, low ceilings, etc and have now achieved a room where my middle-of-the-room speakers provide a sound I enjoy, including the feeling that I'm listening to a live performance. If I engage a DSP filter, this particular feeling is significantly reduced, despite the filter not adjusting anything above 500 Hz. I wonder if you couldn't make real progress with your room before going the DSP route!
 

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However your first sentence "How can a sound be superficially better?" needs looking at. Even though the sound may sound better, there may well be a loss in ultimate sound quality
We'll have to disagree there as I think they're the same thing. Also, in my own experience only of course, I've not noticed any drop in that x-factor in the top end. I got my speakers specifically for music. TV and movies are a definite 2nd (although still important). As a result it's important to me that the top end sounds like it always has and, to my ears, it does with RP. However, it's even better as the bottom end is infinitely improved with RP.

Sweet looking pad by the way. Assuming my reading of your plan is correct.
 
Hi Rob, I’m a big advocate of RP and with every other pair of speakers I’ve tried it with it’s been only a huge benefit. With this pair of speakers though I keep getting the loss of HF and in my case I’m following the instructions to the letter (plus a little experimentation outside of that) and certainly not doing anything as silly as putting the mic behind the speakers. Any ideas?

I think Robs reply was to the Hearhear guy.
 
This was emphatically NOT the case. I would never have placed the mic behind the speakers as the instructions are clear as to where it should be placed. If I was sufficiently impressed by any of the room correction methods I’ve tried, then perhaps I might have experimented by taking a full set of measurements around a seating area that is behind my speakers so that sound quality when I'm in that area may be optimised - but I haven't. I looked up our correspondence yesterday and nowhere is placing the mic behind the speakers mentioned, so please don't repeat this inaccurate claim. Thanks

How about addressing the points raised in my reply to DT79 who seems to be experiencing similar difficulties regarding the top end loss of sparkle?

Rather than go on about poor measurement procedure, I think those using DSP "room correction" should get their brains into gear and logically work out what's actually going on, rather than accept RP as some form of magic that makes music sound superficially better. As Peter Walker said "the ideal amplifier is a straight wire with gain" (I paraphrase) but it's a basic truth that the less the signal is buggered about with (by signal processing, tone controls, graphic equalisers, etc) the better the potential end result - if you start with top quality gear.

Cat amongst pigeons – stirring hornets’ nest - head behind parapet! I appreciate I’m in a minority of one on this particular heavily Lyngdorf-influenced forum, but I’ll still have my say if you don’t mind.

AF8F7188-2531-4150-B8FD-EA297014F642.jpeg
 
@Hear Here - I've refrained from commenting on your posts as I think it is important to hear a variety of opinions, but the Thread title includes the words "knowledge sharing and troubleshooting", and they do not fulfil that remit.

I think the intention and spirit of the Thread is to assist anyone who's already made the decision to invest in Lyngdorf kit, and help them with any issues they're having with implementing RP successfully.

Your posts, though valuable as a viewpoint for anyone contemplating a purchase prior to a decision, are not helpful and add little regarding the Thread's remit.

Can you assist in any way with RP implementation? If so, go ahead and tell us. If not, then stating that all room correction systems don't work and actually make things worse doesn't really get us anywhere.

Thanks.

Oh, and your point about the tingle factor of live music even with poor acoustics in venues like pubs, actually supports the concept of room correction because they use a mixing desk and have sound checks. We don't get that privilege at home.

If anything, I guess you could regard a Lyngdorf amp as a home version of a mixing desk, albeit it's a virtual one and not done live and in real time.

In an ideal world, we'd all live in acoustically-perfect rooms and have no need to make any adjustments to sound reproduction - we'd just buy our kit, set it out and play music. Some people are happy to work hard in making their rooms as acoustically-friendly as possible, others (like me) are okay with compromises, not interested in tweaking and are happy for Room EQ to do all the work for us.
 
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The thread is sliding a little too off topic now. No need to carry on with what is essentially now verging on thread spoiling.
 
I'm going to be visiting Rob Sinden tomorrow at his superb demo facilities just outside Newbury. A lot of times, Rob gets too busy to answer individual posts as well as some would like, so although I know what @DT79 wants to know, what about others? Any specific questions on RoomPerfect that you'd like me to ask face-to-face while I'm with Rob?
 
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I think Robs reply was to the Hearhear guy.
I can’t see what HH has written because he’s on my ignore list, but from context I assumed that was the case.

I thought I’d worded my reply accordingly, but apparently not.

@Rob Sinden - sorry if there was any confusion.
 
I'm going to be visiting Rob Sinden tomorrow at his superb demo facilities just outside Newbury. A lot of times, Rob gets too busy to answer individual posts as well as some would like, so although I know what @DT79 wants to know, but what about others? Any specific questions on RoomPerfect that you'd like me to ask face-to-face while I'm with Rob?
Yes - I suppose Lyngdorf are aware of this loss of top-end for some users in some rooms with their equipment?

Other than diving into the extensive menu system and tweaking like @DT79, what do they advocate as a best compromise?
 
I'm going to be visiting Rob Sinden tomorrow at his superb demo facilities just outside Newbury. A lot of times, Rob gets too busy to answer individual posts as well as some would like, so although I know what @DT79 wants to know, what about others? Any specific questions on RoomPerfect that you'd like me to ask face-to-face while I'm with Rob?
Oh, and should we measure close to room boundaries once RP is over 90% or not?

I liked Dan's suggestion of making one measurement at the MLP but right against the wall. I bought my 3400 because there was significant Bass boom and RP tamed that enormously. But, like him, I have lost some Treble air and sparkle and I don't know why.
 
I'm going to be visiting Rob Sinden tomorrow at his superb demo facilities just outside Newbury. A lot of times, Rob gets too busy to answer individual posts as well as some would like, so although I know what @DT79 wants to know, what about others? Any specific questions on RoomPerfect that you'd like me to ask face-to-face while I'm with Rob?

Damn. Take me 🤫
 
Oh, and should we measure close to room boundaries once RP is over 90% or not?

I liked Dan's suggestion of making one measurement at the MLP but right against the wall. I bought my 3400 because there was significant Bass boom and RP tamed that enormously. But, like him, I have lost some Treble air and sparkle and I don't know why.

Derek, I'm sorry about this, but can you remind me what your system is made up of? Speakers? Subs?
 
Yes - I suppose Lyngdorf are aware of this loss of top-end for some users in some rooms with their equipment?

Other than diving into the extensive menu system and tweaking like @DT79, what do they advocate as a best compromise?

I’ve found this to be quite the opposite for me.

I’ve used three sets of speakers with the 1120 and each pair has benefitted from a more ‘coherent’ treble.

I think coherent is the word I need. It certainly expresses the idea, but I also mean more easily discernible detail.

Not louder in any sense, but certainly there’s less effort in the hearing. As it were.
 
Rob likes visitors, so if you ever get the chance, pay him a visit Paul.

Just don't listen to the Steinway systems, especially the Model B. ;) :D

I fully intend to Steve. Getting cash together with a few free days at the same time is proving difficult.

And there’s no way I could not listen to the Steinways. 😍😍

Might make me into a master criminal for the money necessary to take one home though.
 
I’ve found this to be quite the opposite for me.

I’ve used three sets of speakers with the 1120 and each pair has benefitted from a more ‘coherent’ treble.

I think coherent is the word I need. It certainly expresses the idea, but I also mean more easily discernible detail.

Not louder in any sense, but certainly there’s less effort in the hearing. As it were.

Much the same for me. I also had a look at some old REW measurements earlier while talking with dan via PM and the measured responses in the treble look very similar with RP Off and On. I think once RP does its stuff on the bass region, it's now much cleaner so some mid and high frequencies shine through better.
 
Derek, I'm sorry about this, but can you remind me what your system is made up of? Speakers? Subs?
Steve: a soon-to-be pair of Spendor D9.2's + 2 x Lyngdorf BW-2 Subs, driven by a 3400.

Room is 14 x 10, one large window, wooden floors, rugs and a big double bed!
 
I’m of the same opinion Steve. Especially with my Adams. They were/are bass predominant with plenty of music.

When tamed by both RP and Dirac the difference was delightful.

Extra clarity across the Frequency range.
 
Steve: a soon-to-be pair of Spendor D9.2's + 2 x Lyngdorf BW-2 Subs, driven by a 3400.

Room is 14 x 10, one large window, wooden floors, rugs and a big double bed!

That would be my end state hifi I think.

Not that I’m jelly or anything so childish. 😀
 
I’ve found this to be quite the opposite for me.

I’ve used three sets of speakers with the 1120 and each pair has benefitted from a more ‘coherent’ treble.

I think coherent is the word I need. It certainly expresses the idea, but I also mean more easily discernible detail.

Not louder in any sense, but certainly there’s less effort in the hearing. As it were.
Paul - you see, this is where I confuse myself (it's all too easy!).

You know how you get used to the sound of a system, and then you make a change and you're not sure if it's better or just different? That's how I feel about RP.

I mean, sometimes I think I'm just hearing the room's contribution and it's boosting various frequencies; some I like and some I don't. Using RP has removed that to a large extent, but has now revealed the shortcomings of the speakers, I think.

I guess I'll find out whenever the D9.2's arrive. This Thread will help when it comes to RP set up, though, and I'm more willing to put the time in to get it right now.
 
That would be my end state hifi I think.

Not that I’m jelly or anything so childish. 😀
Mine too, hopefully!

I'll carry on reading about Hi-Fi and tech on here and elsewhere, but no more longing and desire, just enjoying my music.:)
 
Steve: a soon-to-be pair of Spendor D9.2's + 2 x Lyngdorf BW-2 Subs, driven by a 3400.

Room is 14 x 10, one large window, wooden floors, rugs and a big double bed!

Thanks Derek.

You're going to love those speakers, but they are going to need some taming in a room that size, which RP should do easily (it worked wonders on my D7.1s when I had them in a slightly larger room).

When you get the Spendors, it's going to be very interesting what results you get with the speakers only and then with the subs. Easy to do as you know with the 3400 as it can support two different speaker set ups.

Based on my experience, albeit in my room, I would recommend doing RP cals up to 95-96% to begin with with no measurements taken near to a wall and keeping at least 1.5m away from the speakers themselves. Then if bass needs further taming, add a couple more measurements taken near the walls (not in any corners) to get up to 98-100%. Save each cal run each time so you can recall them if required. I no longer needed to take any measurements close to a wall when I got my ATCs, but did use to have to take a wall measurement or two when I had my Spendors when supported by a sub.

I'll still ask Rob tomorrow, but not sure how familiar he is with the Spendors other than the pair I had when he first visited.
 

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