Lyngdorf discussion

Rock Danger

Distinguished Member
I added another 6 readings to my already 100% calibration on the 1120 and it actually produced some definite, subtle, but perceptible improvements to both vocals and general clarity so it seems to me that RP does actually process readings made after the magical 100% - and make suitable amendments to the DSP profile if it hears something different?


This is unfortunately nothing more than a placebo effect. The filters are no longer adjusted or augmented past 100%, the difference between mid 90's and 100% isn't going to be audible and if it was you'd be listening in a very good room, from the perspective of someone mixing a a record or movie over time.

Your source material is widely different and inconsistent, it is the same for most of us. You also have to wrestle with the fact that you do not hear the same thing the same way twice. Your perception of audio fidelity will change without you knowing it, for a bunch of different biological reasons.

Studio engineers and musicians especially are repeating the same sound and tone over and over again, that's something that is crafted. It's also the reason why that engineers will not look at anything until they've tracked the drum recordings consistently, because if not then they can't be manipulated in post without being all over the place.

You can get slightly better room perfect runs, even before you start fiddling with speaker locations and crossovers / distances, but again it's not massively better. That's the only time I've noticed it ever being subtly and subjectively 'better'

Subjectively speaking, if you think it's better then take another 10,20,50 more readings - but it's completely in your head. I've got up and walked away from tuning instruments, recording and mixing because my brain would simply not work and then be fine as little as 20 mins later.
 

woodbar

Member
This is unfortunately nothing more than a placebo effect. The filters are no longer adjusted or augmented past 100%, the difference between mid 90's and 100% isn't going to be audible and if it was you'd be listening in a very good room, from the perspective of someone mixing a a record or movie over time.

It does seem odd that the Lyngdorf OS enables extra readings then even though it is at 100% - you would think that if the new readings are just thrown away they would disable that menu function?

I have taken 2 complete calibrations in the past and not altered any settings, measurements or MLP and I have tried to repeat the random locations as near as possible on both runs - they came out with totally different sound signatures so maybe it is not as "perfect" as you might like to believe.

I've got up and walked away from tuning instruments, recording and mixing because my brain would simply not work and then be fine as little as 20 mins later.

That is why I think I said in my original post I tried again the next day just to be sure my ears were not playing tricks.
 

Rock Danger

Distinguished Member
It does seem odd that the Lyngdorf OS enables extra readings then even though it is at 100% - you would think that if the new readings are just thrown away they would disable that menu function?

Yes, a normal company might do that. Lyngdorf will come at it from more of an engineering company perspective and think 'why would anyone add to 100%?' The thought that you can just keep going and it will get better is a real stretch. For example why can it only be positive changes? why let you stop the process at 90%? At what point above a theoretical 100% is enough, surely the same rules can be applied to anything above 90%?

I have taken 2 complete calibrations in the past and not altered any settings, measurements or MLP and I have tried to repeat the random locations as near as possible on both runs - they came out with totally different sound signatures so maybe it is not as "perfect" as you might like to believe.

I don't believe it's perfect and have said long before anyone that their can be slightly different calibrations with nothing changed, except the mic position. I've measured individual speakers after runs with REW and I'm satisfied that the readings are consistent at least from what REW can tell you. It is more likely in your head than anything else and no one is exempt from this to varying degrees.

Any real change worth talking about are those made with better / different speaker locations and crossovers, or if something is moved/removed in the room and finally using the voicing tool for post eq. The rest is just very flimsy subjective theory.
 

AleSlo

Standard Member
It does seem odd that the Lyngdorf OS enables extra readings ..
Thank you for sharing your experience. I think you can look at opinion of Rock Danger with grain of salt as he is from “pro audio word”.and never believe his ears, only measurements.
 

Rock Danger

Distinguished Member
Thank you for sharing your experience. I think you can look at opinion of Rock Danger with grain of salt as he is from “pro audio word”.and never believe his ears, only measurements.

Your ignorance is showing. I've made the case for how musical instruments were created and how theatres / concert halls were constructed 100's of years ago relying not on acoustic measurements and almost solely on the the human ear. You can go back further in time for the foundations of acoustics and why the design of many instruments remain largely the same.

Measurements are a diagnostic tool, the data from those measurements are then correlated with decades of research into what is pleasing to the human ear (I have brought this up many times in the past) without this correlation it cannot be interpreted properly, it's not a chicken / egg argument.

What is being suggested is not endorsed by the company that created it. It's a subjective and flimsy claim.
 

AleSlo

Standard Member
My respects to your knowledge and experience (without irony).
I just want to point you that each time somebody share their own experience you give hundreds of theoretic arguments agains. Our hobby full of “esoteric” thing which can not be measured for the moment. Each of us has our own setup and ears and it is normal. If you cannot explain something it does not mean that it is not exist, but probably we do not know somthing.
 
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Rock Danger

Distinguished Member
My respects to your knowledge and experience (without irony).
I just want to point you that each time somebody share their own experience you give hundreds of theoretic arguments agains. Our hobby full of “esoteric” thing which can not be measured for the moment. Each of us has our own setup and yeas and it is normal. If you cannot explain something it does not mean that it is not exist, but probably we do not know somthing.

My counterpoints are based firmly in science fact. As a creator of music as well as a background in live and studio sound, I am very aware of the human condition in these environments. This is where music begins and the sound you ultimately hear is based on fundamental physics.

I've never espoused, not once, that there is one measurement to rule them all. You can find plenty of that on ASR and in the DIY section. None of these people to my knowledge are professional acousticians they are a majority of hobbyists often parroting something they read on another forum.

From that end on the spectrum I take what's sound and not blind absolutism, because humans are not a microphone, have generally not great hearing and are flawed and swayed by unfounded psuedo nonsense and ignorance.

Anyone who works in the HiFi trade that's honest will tell you the same.


Just to be clear, I am not telling someone what they can and cannot do in their own home. If you want to gaffer tape your speakers to your head, that's fine. A subjective claim remains that until it's proven otherwise.

And as to me replying to someone sharing their own experience - which experiences? Do you mean experiences which I've helped many people with? Or just ones that are considered kinda 'god of the gaps' like?
 

woodbar

Member
Ooooooops - I seem to have started something here!

I did have a balanced response ready in my head but when I came to post it and saw all the responses I decided not to go there.

I can only reiterate that I tried some extra readings over and above the 100% and fully expected either no change or a worse result which was why I always do a backup before changing ANYTHING. I was pleasantly surprised with the result which I perceived to be an improvement. If it is actually a placebo effect then who cares - at least it made me happy. :D
 

Rock Danger

Distinguished Member
Ooooooops - I seem to have started something here!

I did have a balanced response ready in my head but when I came to post it and saw all the responses I decided not to go there.

I can only reiterate that I tried some extra readings over and above the 100% and fully expected either no change or a worse result which was why I always do a backup before changing ANYTHING. I was pleasantly surprised with the result which I perceived to be an improvement. If it is actually a placebo effect then who cares - at least it made me happy. :D


It's just discussion; if it's worked for you for whatever reason then great.
 

Rock Danger

Distinguished Member
Make an argument w.o. belittling owners and potential owners.

I'm not belittling anyone. Try reading my posts in context. I'm not making an argument. I'm rebutting dubious at best claims.

Careful you don't fall off your cross.
 
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Rock Danger

Distinguished Member
That was fun. Now for something completely different....please.

Don't put it on me. Blame lies entirely at that stupid and false comment.
 

Doubleroll

Active Member
Owners manual refers to the following document but I cant seem to find it:
"In a separate document, called Speakers and Bass Management"

Anyone have a link? Thanks...
 

audiofidelity

Active Member
Owners manual refers to the following document but I cant seem to find it:
"In a separate document, called Speakers and Bass Management"

Anyone have a link? Thanks...
Is this the 8 page PDF bundled in with 4.0.0 firmware perhaps?


In case it helps, the table of content includes the following:

New Speaker Setup – Changes 2
Updating from a Previous SW Version 2
Restoring Old Backups 2
More Flexible Output Usage 2
More than One Output for LFE 2
Distances Will be Remembered 3
Speaker Setup Functionality 4
Bass Management 5
Speaker Cutoff Frequency 5
Which Cutoff Frequency Should You Choose? 5
XL and XXL Speakers. 5
Front and Rear Subs. 6
LFE subs and transducers 6
LFE channel 6
Bi-amping 6
Natural Roll-off 7
Assignment of Speakers to Bass Positions 7
Dolby Atmos, DTS:X and Auro-3D 8
Dolby-Enabled Speakers 8
Mixed Extra Channels 8
 

nkatz

Active Member
Perhaps I'm missing something, but I don't understand the so-called Biamping, for which the New Speaker Set-Up Guide says:

"For the front speakers, it is possible to select an option to use bi-amping. By enabling this option, the system will route a copy of the signal for the left and right front speakers to another pair of outputs. This signal is an exact copy of the existing signal for the front speakers. If the front speakers have been given a size with a cutoff frequency, that high pass filter is applied to these outputs as well. This means it is possible to use bi-amping for speakers and still have bass management redirect the bass to a sub instead."

No mention is made of crossovers for the additional outputs, so presumably you'd need to use an outboard one, which only requires a single input.

So what's the point?
 

Rock Danger

Distinguished Member
No mention is made of crossovers for the additional outputs, so presumably you'd need to use an outboard one, which only requires a single input.

I just read it as it copying the L+R inc crossovers (if used) to 2 additional outputs - which is 4 outs and the speaker's crossover deals with it passively as normal - you're just doubling up on power.

If the speakers were set to XL then there would be no x-overs copied over and again double up on power with 4 outs but no HPF for a sub.

No?
 

scoc

Well-known Member
There is clearly some HDMI issue with the latest 4.0 software update on the MP60. Earlier this evening I had no picture, only audio, on my hdmi inputs. Even cycling hdmi inputs did not help. I had to cycle down both my projector and MP60 to get it working again. Never had to do this before on the 3.x firmware.
 

nkatz

Active Member
I just read it as it copying the L+R inc crossovers (if used) to 2 additional outputs - which is 4 outs and the speaker's crossover deals with it passively as normal - you're just doubling up on power.

Yes, that's how I read it too.

But the additional power comes from additional power amps, two of which can be driven by using a cheap Y cable on one processor output channel.
 

Rock Danger

Distinguished Member
Yes, that's how I read it too.

But the additional power comes from additional power amps, two of which can be driven by using a cheap Y cable on one processor output channel.


I'm not sure in this particular case. I know you can run into all kinds of problems doing this with live sound, signal loss to ground loops.

For a hifi preamp... I know people split subs this way, but even knowing that I wanna say there's some potential and unlikely problem with what you propose. I just don't remember what the hell it is, it's been so long since I've had to use one.

Someone on this thread will know.
 

nkatz

Active Member
I'm not sure in this particular case. I know you can run into all kinds of problems doing this with live sound, signal loss to ground loops.

In live sound you can have tens of meters of cables and pieces of gear far from each other and on different circuits, both of which are not the norm for home use.

In my many generations of HT I've done it several times w/unbalanced cabling to drive duplicated surround channels, as well as multiple subs, and never had an issue.
 

Mono

Active Member
Hi,

Well, I'm about to do the software update.
I would love to be reminded what is the right way.
I remember I need to perform a factory reset, just do not remember at what stage.

After the update I am interested in uploading my current calibration and backing it up with the new firmware.

Once I have such a backup, I want to make a change in the speaker setting, for example add a second LFE input, and perform a new calibration.

Is there a reset here at any point?

Any other suggestions and tips would be appreciated.
 

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