Lyngdorf discussion

clausdk

Active Member
I went from NAD Dirac (M17v2 and T777v3) to Lyngdorf and in my room the Lyngdorf definitely sounds better. Sometimes the nerd in me misses all the graphs that Dirac produces but RP is definitely less hassle to get good results and Lyngdorf like Apple control both the hardware and software which has some integration benefits - george
This has also been increasingly important to me as the years go by. I had the first dirac box from minidsp and read many books on acoustics and endless tweaking with often very good results I must say.

Now I really just want to sit back and relax with a system that just works :)

And tight bass! :)
 

ggwoodland

Active Member
This has also been increasingly important to me as the years go by. I had the first dirac box from minidsp and read many books on acoustics and endless tweaking with often very good results I must say.

Now I really just want to sit back and relax with a system that just works :)

And tight bass! :)
Claus - if you can get a demo of an MP60 it would be interesting to hear your thoughts as I was seriously considering an AV40. Primarily due to the cost difference (£4k vs £12k - in the end I got an ex demo MP50 which reduced that price margin and just went for it). But the feedback of the quirks of the AV40 deterred me as the NADs had a few quirks of their own and as you say you just want to relax sometimes. There are also a few quirks of the MP50 (which I presume apply to the 40 and 60) like sometimes the C9 loses its eARC connection with the MP50 and reverts to its internal speakers. But I do a quick check now and I can handle that quirk - George
 

Steve356

Distinguished Member
Anyone with personal dirac experience that have gone to RP and not looked back?

My goal for the sound is tight and impactfull bas!

In my new theater I can run everything without EQ and it sounds quite good, but obviously the bass needs to be handled because of room modes.

The cursed AV40 is grinding my patience so I am looking for a replacement.
I was running Dirac with my Arcam FMJ AVR850 for just over 3 years before I got a loan Lyngdorf amp to try at home. I must have done over 50 Dirac calibrations during that time (as Dirac brought out their constant updates and bug fixes). I addition, I spent countless hours trying different curves and correction frequencies. Why all this pain? Simply because while I could get Arcam/Dirac to passable for movies, I could never get a stereo sound that I was happy with. I was constantly switching Dirac Off for music replay. The sound could be thin or bass heavy depending on where I had set the Dirac curve. Then if I had it set about as good as I could get with music, it would sound poor for movies. Also stereo imaging was rubbish with everything sounding flat and lacking in dynamics with Dirac On.

In Spring last year, I heard a demo of Lyngdorf amps while was I was in the process of buying a new subwoofer. It was a bit of a revelation, but the cynic in me thought "will it work as well in my room?". I managed to get a loan TDAi3400 and haven't really looked back. RoomPerfect just works better in my system and room. Why?

Calibration with RP is so easy and very different to other room correction methods. In a stereo set up, it takes me less that 15 minutes. No messing around with graphs or curves and just sounds right. You can do a lot of additional stuff with settings if you want, I don't use any of them as I don't need to. Tonality, timing, dynamics and imaging are perfect for me and after trying the headphone comparison, I'd say, my system now sounds the best it ever has.

Also last year, I tried not just my Arcam with Dirac in my system, but also a Denon 8500 (Audyssey), Marantz 7010 (Audyssey) and Anthem 1120 (ARC). None of them in my room sounded any better than Dirac to be honest, but they also didn't sound any worse. Equally none of them gave me the stereo sound quality I was looking for. My speakers just didn't sound like my speakers any more and speaker/sub integration wasn't good.

So for now, I run my Arcam AVR850 into my Lyngdorf TDAi3400. Dirac is permanently switched off. The 3400 has RP running. I am now happy with the sound the in stereo and surround. At some later date, I may migrate to a fully Lyngdorf surround system, but as I only run 5.1, I'm not in any hurry. I'm more likely to add stereo boundary woofers before I do that as having heard them, I like it.

Finally, just to emphasise that stereo is important to me as I'm a 50/50 user when it comes to music and movies. At least I was until a few months ago. I've been finding that during the pandemic that I've been playing a lot more music lately. Haven't watched more than five movies in the last three months.

Not sure if this helps, but it relates what I found in my room and system.

P.S. I had a Lyngdorf MP40 and 3 x SDA2400s on loan recently. I did return them, but not for the usual reasons. It all sounded fantastic for movies/music and again, RP was superb for me. I simply returned it as 1) I'd rather have a MP60 as I need more than 3 HDMI inputs, 2) I'd want a SDA8400 rather than SDA2400s and the 8400 isn't out yet, and 3) there's a Dolby feature that is on the Arcams that I'd like to see on the MP40 and 60. If 1-3 get resolved, I doubt I'll be able to resist. :)
 

clausdk

Active Member
Claus - if you can get a demo of an MP60 it would be interesting to hear your thoughts as I was seriously considering an AV40. Primarily due to the cost difference (£4k vs £12k - in the end I got an ex demo MP50 which reduced that price margin and just went for it). But the feedback of the quirks of the AV40 deterred me as the NADs had a few quirks of their own and as you say you just want to relax sometimes. There are also a few quirks of the MP50 (which I presume apply to the 40 and 60) like sometimes the C9 loses its eARC connection with the MP50 and reverts to its internal speakers. But I do a quick check now and I can handle that quirk - George
Absolutely. Still waiting to hear back from them.

I accept that their might be some small bugs that hopefully will get fixed, but the AV40 is not usable at the moment and it distorted my entire system so heavily I was scared for the safety of my speakers - and hearing.
 

clausdk

Active Member
I was running Dirac with my Arcam FMJ AVR850 for just over 3 years before I got a loan Lyngdorf amp to try at home. I must have done over 50 Dirac calibrations during that time (as Dirac brought out their constant updates and bug fixes). I addition, I spent countless hours trying different curves and correction frequencies. Why all this pain? Simply because while I could get Arcam/Dirac to passable for movies, I could never get a stereo sound that I was happy with. I was constantly switching Dirac Off for music replay. The sound could be thin or bass heavy depending on where I had set the Dirac curve. Then if I had it set about as good as I could get with music, it would sound poor for movies. Also stereo imaging was rubbish with everything sounding flat and lacking in dynamics with Dirac On.

In Spring last year, I heard a demo of Lyngdorf amps while was I was in the process of buying a new subwoofer. It was a bit of a revelation, but the cynic in me thought "will it work as well in my room?". I managed to get a loan TDAi3400 and haven't really looked back. RoomPerfect just works better in my system and room. Why?

Calibration with RP is so easy and very different to other room correction methods. In a stereo set up, it takes me less that 15 minutes. No messing around with graphs or curves and just sounds right. You can do a lot of additional stuff with settings if you want, I don't use any of them as I don't need to. Tonality, timing, dynamics and imaging are perfect for me and after trying the headphone comparison, I'd say, my system now sounds the best it ever has.

Also last year, I tried not just my Arcam with Dirac in my system, but also a Denon 8500 (Audyssey), Marantz 7010 (Audyssey) and Anthem 1120 (ARC). None of them in my room sounded any better than Dirac to be honest, but they also didn't sound any worse. Equally none of them gave me the stereo sound quality I was looking for. My speakers just didn't sound like my speakers any more and speaker/sub integration wasn't good.

So for now, I run my Arcam AVR850 into my Lyngdorf TDAi3400. Dirac is permanently switched off. The 3400 has RP running. I am now happy with the sound the in stereo and surround. At some later date, I may migrate to a fully Lyngdorf surround system, but as I only run 5.1, I'm not in any hurry. I'm more likely to add stereo boundary woofers before I do that as having heard them, I like it.

Finally, just to emphasise that stereo is important to me as I'm a 50/50 user when it comes to music and movies. At least I was until a few months ago. I've been finding that during the pandemic that I've been playing a lot more music lately. Haven't watched more than five movies in the last three months.

Not sure if this helps, but it relates what I found in my room and system.

P.S. I had a Lyngdorf MP40 and 3 x SDA2400s on loan recently. I did return them, but not for the usual reasons. It all sounded fantastic for movies/music and again, RP was superb for me. I simply returned it as 1) I'd rather have a MP60 as I need more than 3 HDMI inputs, 2) I'd want a SDA8400 rather than SDA2400s and the 8400 isn't out yet, and 3) there's a Dolby feature that is on the Arcams that I'd like to see on the MP40 and 60. If 1-3 get resolved, I doubt I'll be able to resist. :)
Thanks for the feedback. I can really relate to a lot of what you mention in your post.

I must say I have enjoyed Dirac through the years but I agree it does take a few runs, if not many, to get it right. I havent heard any room correction that worked with stereo yet so I hope RP can show me otherwise. For now I am running stereo through an Innuos Zenith Mk3 then to my Mcintosh MC2600 premap. The Pre amp has HT bypass that is triggered via the AV40, works really great actually for a pure stereo chain.

"Fingers crossed" they can lend me the MP-60 for a trial run :)
 

Damp Squid

Active Member
I can back up what Steve has already said. I had an Arcam AVR550 with Dirac for over 2 years and was never done calibrating and changing curves, but never got to a point where I was completely happy with the resultant sound in my room. My long term goal was to go for an Arcam AV40, however we all know how that has turned out.

A few weeks with an Anthem AVM60 proved to be an overall good experience. I found Anthem ARC to be easier to use than Dirac, however I decided not to buy it as the Anthem is due for a replacement soon.

After a demo of an MP40 there was no comparison in the sound quality for both movies and music, and the ease of running RP. Dynamics, soundstage and detail are on a different level. True that it’s significantly more expensive than the Arcam or Anthem, but with performance to match, you soon get over it.
 

beechy06

Well-known Member
Looks to be a well priced MP-50 up for sale on The Sound Counsel’s page if anyone’s been looking out for one:

 

artur9

Member
What I personally do is this, not saying this is the only way or anything:
There's a shortcut for sub integration that I tried recently and it works fantastically for movies.
Assuming the use of REW:

Take a measurement with REW with sub and speaker to integrate.
Look at the Spectrogram graph with the Control set to Wavelet, Frequency Axis Y
That will draw a vertical line through the frequencies showing the relative timing of that frequency.

In my case, the line wasn't straight, there was a step around the xover frequency. I was integrating the Center channel so I delayed that so that the line got straighter.

Now the bass definition is outstanding.

On my 2ch setup it looks like the below. (Please don't hate all my untrapped bass ringing)

wavelet.jpg
 

hestepare

Member
I've heard about this approach, and I've noticed that mine also has a step ("box") around the XO. I'm running a 2.1 system, would I then just delay either the sub or fronts and see if the step disappears?

The reason why I haven't done this is that it's only the frequencies around the XO that appeared to be delayed. At either extreme it was about the same (I don't have the measurements here but I can fetch them later today). So I thought that if I delay the entire sub, I would shift the entire lower part of the line towards the right and retain the step around the XO. But that's maybe not how it works?
 

PhilipK

Active Member
No one with similar problems?

Hi all!

I have some hdmi related issues with my tdai-2170 which hopefully someone has a solution for. The hdmi board is the old one without 4K connected to a LG OLED c9 and every time I start up the system there are no sound initially and the volume control cannot be changes from the tv remote. I have to go into the TVs settings and flip back and forth between earc and arc (which is the correct one to use) and pcm, auto, pass through. After a while it starts working and I guess that it’s some hand shake related issues, a couple of different HDMI cables has been tested with no luck. All settings should most likely be correct both in the tdai and on the tv but cannot seem to find a solution. Any thoughts? Worth to mention is that I had the same problems with my old tv - an LG OLED b6.

Thanks,
Philip
 

artur9

Member
I've heard about this approach, and I've noticed that mine also has a step ("box") around the XO. I'm running a 2.1 system, would I then just delay either the sub or fronts and see if the step disappears?

The reason why I haven't done this is that it's only the frequencies around the XO that appeared to be delayed. At either extreme it was about the same (I don't have the measurements here but I can fetch them later today). So I thought that if I delay the entire sub, I would shift the entire lower part of the line towards the right and retain the step around the XO. But that's maybe not how it works?
You have a kind of hump around the XO? Is this measuring with both L/R or only one channel?

I'm no expert so I can't help much. Since it's a relatively easy process, I would try matching to only one speaker and delaying it, then the sub to see if you can get the hump to be better.

Nice thing about this method is it says what the delay needs to be. Doing it by inverting phase and trying to level match, omg, that takes forever.

BTW, for the system above the XO is set to 90 in my Lyngdorf and the subs go through a Xilica for PEQ so there's lots of opportunities for mismatched delays.
 

hestepare

Member
There's evidently a big difference between the relation between the sub and the R and L, respectively.

Here are the spectrograms:
Right and sub.jpg
left and sub.jpg


Not bad, I guess, though there is something weird going on with the left and sub between 70 and 160 Hz.

Edit: I found the "hat" between 70 and 90 Hz when I did a l+r+sub sweep:
left and right and sub.jpg
 
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ggwoodland

Active Member
ok just had a look at my REW Spectograms as well. I'll redo this when I get my PL200s in next week.
I noticed on the REW thread on AVF there was a video that provided a few tips for this:
  1. Disable all upmixing - when I did the measurement I might have had Dolby Upmix selected;
  2. Use REW to set sub level to between 75 and 80 db - tbh I don't remember what the sub level was.
This may have caused some strange effects when I looked at my measurements.

If anyone has any other REW tips to measure sub delay gratefully accepted as I'm bit of REW noob - reasonably familiar with FuzzMeasure - but that hasn't been updated for a while and doesn't have the REW sub timing facility - George
 

hestepare

Member
My go-to has been a mix of checking impulse response, aligning fronts and making sure that the sub doesn't interfere negatively SPL-wise and that they all are reasonably temporally aligned.

My spectrograms above are really a result of compromise. My sub is asymmetrically located (next to the L), so it won't be perfectly aligned to both. The L and R fill in each other's dips, so the result is fairly good with RP in a non-optimal room. The next thing now is figuring out how to get make 100-800 Hz more even – I suspect I need new speakers for that, bigger drivers and all that… Or maybe somehow integrate a few BW-2s, but that might not be a very popular solution with the misuss…
 

craig808

Active Member
Hi

Does anyone know if I can increase the max volume on the TDAI 2170?

It lets me turn it up to 12db which don't get me wrong, is loud. Buy I'd like to crank the volume a touch more when needed.

Cheers
Craig
 

arisholm

Well-known Member
I am not sure exactly how the spectogram helps aligning subs with speakers, except that the main line essentially is the group delay. The minimum phase version of the group delay plot in REW is more suited to judge the delay settings I think, and the alignment tool even better ..
In any case, just as a reference if you are interested, this is what a spectogram looks like in (almost) free air at 1m distance with a Dali Helicon 400MkII. Even then there are some reflections against walls/buildings/trees about 10m away and some against the ground/floor even though the speaker was elevated. So you can probably assume that the blue stuff would be gone under ideal conditions:
1600292696229.png


And in attempt to approach this in an actual room you need boundaries that absorb energy. This is how it looks in my movie room with quite extensive room treatments and by just using the alignment tool in REW between speaker and sub:
1600293588761.png


Still not perfect as ideally you don't want to see too much green above 200ms... but that's as good as it gets in my room, but with a lot of bass traps to keep decay times under reasonable control.

PS: So this has very little to do with the speakers per se; it mostly depends on the room's dimensions and absorption properties (and to some more minor extent the speaker placement), I think o_O
 
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artur9

Member
There's evidently a big difference between the relation between the sub and the R and L, respectively.

Here are the spectrograms:
...
Not as bad as I was imagining.

Weird things happen around your XO, it's like all your bass goes away. Maybe there's some cancellation going on?

I found an interesting description on a forum I don't like with a link to a good video (set to start right at the wavelet part):
The suggestion there is to use wavelet to get close and then finish/polish it using RTA to ensure the phase isn't off by a full cycle.

I haven't gotten REW's timing and delay things to work consistently, if at all, so I don't use them. (see, not an expert)
 

DT79

Well-known Member
Hi

Does anyone know if I can increase the max volume on the TDAI 2170?

It lets me turn it up to 12db which don't get me wrong, is loud. Buy I'd like to crank the volume a touch more when needed.

Cheers
Craig
Crikey, I can’t imagine how you can be listening at +12db, unless your listening room is a church or something. You could max out the input trims, I think that might give you up to an additional +18db IIRC.

And of course, how are you finding it?
 
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larkone

Distinguished Member
Hi

Does anyone know if I can increase the max volume on the TDAI 2170?

It lets me turn it up to 12db which don't get me wrong, is loud. Buy I'd like to crank the volume a touch more when needed.

Cheers
Craig
It sounds like you have the 'Max Volume' set in the menus. The manual says
4.3 Volume 4.3.1. Default volume The default volume setting controls the default volume at startup. 4.3.2 Maximum volume The maximum volume setting is a safety precaution used for limiting the maximum volume which can be achieved by spinning the wheel or increasing volume via the remote. This can be set to protect your loudspeakers against overload.
 

DT79

Well-known Member
It sounds like you have the 'Max Volume' set in the menus. The manual says
4.3 Volume 4.3.1. Default volume The default volume setting controls the default volume at startup. 4.3.2 Maximum volume The maximum volume setting is a safety precaution used for limiting the maximum volume which can be achieved by spinning the wheel or increasing volume via the remote. This can be set to protect your loudspeakers against overload.
I think +12db is as far as the range goes
 

hestepare

Member
It sounds like you have the 'Max Volume' set in the menus. The manual says
4.3 Volume 4.3.1. Default volume The default volume setting controls the default volume at startup. 4.3.2 Maximum volume The maximum volume setting is a safety precaution used for limiting the maximum volume which can be achieved by spinning the wheel or increasing volume via the remote. This can be set to protect your loudspeakers against overload.
I see you are hard at work reducing someone's male virility! :rotfl:
 

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